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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Puppy Power
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 991
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jul 2018, 22:05    Post subject:  

Moat wrote:

I have found no similarly useful, fully-functional utilities in Linux for taming systemd services - so as of yet it's even more time/effort consuming than Windows, IMHO. And getting worse by the day. Confused

Bob


Yes, we need some effort put into writing programs like that. But good thing is, that in the opensource Linux world, all such is at least possible.

wiak
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hamoudoudou

Joined: 24 Jul 2014
Posts: 1467
Location: rabat

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jul 2018, 22:48    Post subject: don't pull its wings out by linking it to hard drive  

wiak Windows is just a barebone OS is you don't install apps.. There were thousans of developpers, but that is dying too.. Devs develop now for phones, at Ubuntu and Windows..
What nobody said is that Ubuntu shop is not free..
Puppy can Use Ubuntu and Debain repositories, and size around 300MB is nothing nowadays with 4GB RAM.. Puppy can still run Full in RAM, If our devs don't pull its wings out by linking it to hard drive for permanent Writing.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11245
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2018, 00:18    Post subject:  

Quote:
I have found no similarly useful, fully-functional utilities in Linux for taming systemd services

Puppy has Boot Manager>Services

Gives option to turn off/on a lot of stuff.

The thing is a lot of it is really needed.

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 991
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2018, 03:04    Post subject: Re: don't pull its wings out by linking it to hard drive  

hamoudoudou wrote:

What nobody said is that Ubuntu shop is not free..

Quote:
In addition to the thousands of free and open-source applications that are always available within Ubuntu, you can now buy leading commercial software applications right from the same convenient Ubuntu Software Center that's built into Ubuntu.


Personally, I see nothing wrong with this. Forced updates are more of a problem. Yes, even in windows, this can be turned off. In Android too... but I find it difficult to keep updates off in Android, which is really unacceptable. Not worried about paid apps; there is also free software for Android from F-Droid (or anyone can learn to write their own...), but many developers prefer to earn some payment for their hundreds and thousands of hours work coding - oh what a sin! - earning money for working hard. GNU, frankly, tries very hard (and quite successfully) to take away that right (and that is called freedom?).

I'm not so convinced with GNU copyleft licences though. Personally I use permissive MIT license with my own software releases, most of the time (unless I can't avoid GNU either...). I am perfectly happy for other programmers to improve my code and release their improvements for a fee if they wish - if they worked hard and people are willing to pay for their improvements that seems perfectly fair to me - forcing copyleft on them isn't. Unfortunately, over time it becomes difficult to find code that hasn't been GNU copylefted (bad as any other kind of patent/copyright at the end of the day). Linux should be permissive MIT (or similar) too though, not GNU (or to be fair, everyone in the world should work for free - please come and dig my garden for the next week - it needs it). Working for free won't feed your children though... Of course it would be great if MS windoze was released under MIT license too. Application software should be free or not-free as their developers prefer - not GNU forced to always work for nothing - that is a nonsense 'community'.

People are generally spoiled in the Linux community - as long as the platform is 'free', the compilers, all of the underlying system, so that users can build there own (and share when they so choose) - that is enough. Good that programmers be able to earn money for their time (just like everyone else) - clearly a competitive world and tons of very good free stuff anyway - but if someone can produce something better such that they can charge - fine - community software will always be generously available as long as the platform and build tools are always kept open and no reason they won't be.

So yeah, I would like operating systems and all core development tools to be open-source and freely released (but not GNU for above reasons). That gives freedom for everyone to learn and develop what they wish, free or otherwise - much fairer (nice being a free passenger though - must remember to tell my next taxi driver that...).

Not a popular opinion on this forum I guess. 'Passenger' Pelo maybe worked for free all his life (oh yeah... nice con trick that one).

Even MINUX wasn't originally entirely free (was cheap to get the code though) though since 2000 it has had a permissive BSD license (which is good). Torvald's learned a lot from MINUX, but for some reason Linux is GNU - pity... BSD would be much better (or MIT, as I said, would be fine too).

MINUX on wikipedia wrote:
Early Linux kernel development was done on a MINIX host system, which led to Linux inheriting various features from MINIX


Linux didn't inherit the MINUX microkernel though - went monolithic, which many regard as a bad thing. Kenneth Brown may have been wrong (Samizdat claims), or was he really(?) - but Linux should have taken over the computing world (including the desktop) by this time - GNU limits development effort for what I say are obvious reasons. It's no accident that Microsoft and Apple dominate the desktop despite their cost (actually the cost of even MS OS is tiny compared to the hundreds of hours spent writing even one applciation for the 'free' open-source community. But, of course, we don't need to program or release at all - but wouldn't that be an even greater negative in terms of human development and technological advance?

wiak

Last edited by wiak on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 03:36; edited 1 time in total
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Moat


Joined: 16 Jul 2013
Posts: 930
Location: Mid-mitten

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2018, 03:36    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
Puppy has Boot Manager>Services.


Yep - handy little utility that works well, indeed... for Puppy. What I'm talking about is the direction mainstream distros are moving - hand-in-hand with systemd - towards a bloated, background daemon/service/process-filled system that's attempting to do everything plus the kitchen sink... just because it can (much like Windows). And currently no good tools to bring the mess under control (unlike Windows).

Not a big issue for Puppy, yet. But that day is coming (all of the recent hassles with Firefox/Pulseaudio/Gtk3 being an example of the hacks/patches/effort needed, just to retain previous functionality). Puppy is essentially a downstream product of those mainstream distro's development - and as they further sink into their mindless morass, Puppy will have to follow, to some degree. Part of the reason current Puppies are considerably larger than in the past, it seems.

Bob
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 991
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2018, 03:41    Post subject:  

Moat wrote:
Puppy is essentially a downstream product of those mainstream distro's development - and as they further sink into their mindless morass, Puppy will have to follow, to some degree. Part of the reason current Puppies are considerably larger than in the past, it seems.

Bob


Well, it is a downstream product nowadays, but why does it have to be? Why does it "have to follow". Any good project can attract developers, who can read and write code and create their own alternatives to systemd or whatever. Just takes the will, the way is already there.

wiak
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11245
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2018, 09:30    Post subject:  

Browsers as an example is not very good to use.

Browsers seem to think everyone is always using the latest version of any core Linux files/programs.
Palemoon browser seems to not be following this idea.
I have updated Palemoon about 8 times and never had to do anything new to Puppy it is installed in.

Puppy does not go that way.
Puppy uses what works, not what is the very newest thing.

Puppy is getting bigger, mainly because the Linux kernel is getting bigger. With each new kernel constantly adding support for the newest hardware and still trying to provide what is needed for the older hardware.
But even the Linux kernel has reached a point that it is dropping support for really old hardware and removing the needed drivers.

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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rockedge


Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Posts: 845
Location: Connecticut, United States

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2018, 11:18    Post subject:  

Quote:
Just takes the will, the way is already there.

agreed. there are those who already are working on it.

Quote:
I have updated Palemoon about 8 times and never had to do anything new to Puppy it is installed in.


same here. I experiment with puppies by changing he kernels..see what happens....old new in between
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mouldy


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug 2018, 13:14    Post subject:  

I have played lot with win10, Its very obnoxious as it comes out of box. This was couple years ago and before it was updated to not allow removal of their STORE/METRO apps or cortana the spy. I ran script called win10lite during install and then another script that created huge number entries in firewall blocking contact with all known M$ servers. At that point using latest chromium/thunderbird/etc it was actually fairly pleasant, not great, Windows Explorer sucks anymore though I found third party substitute. It still took huge amount space compared to Puppy. And lot hidden spyware settings you wont easily find.

I still have a win10 install on one old computer but only occasionally booted for a windows only software like yearly tax software where its not worth trying to get it working under WINE for just one use. And had to use win10 (un-activated) as lot software no longer supports XP or Vista. Why, no idea, as cant see huge difference but they seem to go out of their way to make sure it wont. Same way lot of current browsers no longer run on XP or VISTA. This is death knell for operating systems that cant run a current browser. I used to be big fan of Kmeleon since it even ran well in WINE, but it has no extensions to block unwanted scripts running, well other than turning off javascript entirely which makes it mostly useless.

And Puppies like Slacko64 6.9.9.9 with 4.9.30 kernel can deal with latest hardware like eMMC drives, very common on low end computers anymore. It was only version linux I found that both booted and shutdown cleanly on my Acer One Cloudbook. Plus I dont have to deal with that stupid SUDO stuff to do anything like most linux. Trackpad and keyboard even work reliably, something they didnt do with win10. Dont know how many times I had to reload trackpad/keyboard drivers under win10. Acer didnt care, they considered these throwaways, the sooner the better.
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perdido


Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 1035
Location: ¿Altair IV , Just north of Eeyore Junction.?

PostPosted: Mon 01 Oct 2018, 05:59    Post subject:  

One very annoying "feature" of windows is how it wants to format a linux partition if you plug in a usb stick that has a linux partition.
You see the following window.


Very sneaky of microsoft, almost criminal.

I wonder how many millions of linux users have accidently formatted because of this microsoft trick. You know this could not be
accidental on the part of microsoft.


.
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 3268
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Mon 01 Oct 2018, 09:12    Post subject:  

It is only trying to be helpful, not obstructive.
What it should say is that it does not recognise the current format (without the correct drivers).

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perdido


Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 1035
Location: ¿Altair IV , Just north of Eeyore Junction.?

PostPosted: Mon 01 Oct 2018, 18:36    Post subject:  

Burn_IT wrote:
It is only trying to be helpful, not obstructive.
What it should say is that it does not recognise the current format (without the correct drivers).


I think it was very deliberate thumb in the eye to linux users.


.
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 3268
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Mon 01 Oct 2018, 19:11    Post subject:  

Why??

The format or not of a disk has absolutely nothing to do with any OS

It is true that different OSs tend to use different formats, but that is only by default. If the Linux partition was using a disk format that Windows had the drivers for it would not complain.

I would be quite happy to run my Windows systems using Ext? if there were decent recovery programs for those file systems, but when the comment tends to be "we don't need recovery because it never goes wrong", then I am definitely going to look elsewhere.

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perdido


Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 1035
Location: ¿Altair IV , Just north of Eeyore Junction.?

PostPosted: Mon 01 Oct 2018, 20:18    Post subject:  

Burn_IT wrote:
Why??

The format or not of a disk has absolutely nothing to do with any OS

It is true that different OSs tend to use different formats, but that is only by default. If the Linux partition was using a disk format that Windows had the drivers for it would not complain.

I would be quite happy to run my Windows systems using Ext? if there were decent recovery programs for those file systems, but when the comment tends to be "we don't need recovery because it never goes wrong", then I am definitely going to look elsewhere.


Oh come on now. When a popup comes on the screen making an alerting sound and the info window says "You need to format blah blah disk", and
makes it a one click done deal, that could very well be classified as something a virus would do. The reason ms did it that way was to get a user to
accidently kill a partition. Sneaky, devious, tricky. Morally wrong. Never stopped ms from doing it though, the guy that thought that one up probably got a bonus.

.



.

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01101001b


Joined: 08 Mar 2017
Posts: 48
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct 2018, 02:56    Post subject:  

perdido wrote:
I wonder how many millions of linux users have accidently formatted because of this microsoft trick. You know this could not be accidental on the part of microsoft.

Hi Perdido! In honor of the truth, none. Linux users are not that stupid. Wind*ws does not support natively Linux filesystems, so no surprise there. No need to be paranoid or hater just because. No offense intended.

Just my two cents Wink
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