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I finally got a new(er) PC, which Puppy is the best for me?
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ITSMERSH


Joined: 02 May 2018
Posts: 585

PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov 2018, 17:19    Post subject:  

Quote:
Of course, Reiner, I've already done that! Very Happy Always ext2 for memory sticks, ext3 for harddisks. I split the 500GB HDD into 4 primary partitions, all ext3. With 4 Gb RAM, I see no need for a swap partition, at least not yet. Win 10 gone forever.

I was using ext2 for years on all USB flash drives AND HD drives.

Lately I discovered some rough trouble on ext2 partitions caused by not properly unmounted SFS modules at shutdown/reboot. If there's such SFS modules it's drive can NOT properly unmount which is similar to a hard reboot by reset button!

A e2fsck returned a lot of wrong data in inodes and wrong counts in summaries. This was quiet heavy stuff!

I discovered this using BionicDog and checked all my Puppies (stored on internal/external HDs and USB flash drives) after that. The issue applied to all of them under ext2.

Since I'm using ext3 on all my drives/partitions everything just went fine!

So, I strictly would recommend: drop the use of ext2 definitely and completely. Cool

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oui

Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 3169
Location: near Woof (Germany) :-) Acer Laptop emachines 2 GB RAM AMD64. franco-/germanophone, +/- anglophone

PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov 2018, 18:11    Post subject:  

It is probably an error to continue to use

- 32 bit on 64 bit
- ext3 instead of ext4
- old grub legacy instead of official actual grub!

I would first install a very minimal Debian or Devuan and let it prepare optimal the installation and later shrink the debian partition (if needing! I have only one partition on my 3/4 TB HD and a SWAP, use 90 % of time a Puppy, always remastered (locales, keyboard, didiwiki added where not available, dito seamonkey, asian fonts collection, dictionaries collection and links to /usr/share/hunspell) but always live out the RAM without saving somewhat in Puppy. all the private stuff goes into the /home/my/ from actually Devuan excepted some files having to have to be a bit safer against trojaner etc. They are in /var where Slitaz is installed as full install within a different installation Wink , see Slitaz wiki (in 1/2 GB you can install a lot stuff in Slitaz!). Warning: you can reach the Slitaz find but Slitaz can't read the stuff from Debian/vuan as the Slitaz / is within the /var ! No trojaner will search in the /var a really active normal Linux system excepted such search for all /home 's on an HD!

Also all in one about 3/4 TB partition...

Only one little problem: the different owner of doc's is not comfortable (you have to use chown more frequently or handle as root also in Debian/vuan...), but as I many use Puppy's as root, it is a very little problem (note: it is very easy to define a new owner you wish in the /var/... Slitaz installation! With the same rights (working in sudo without password! Exclamation ).

Next consideration:

Debian/vuan is 64 bit
Slitaz starts with 64 bit kernel but uses 32 bit stuff Idea
Puppy is as you download and start (the actual puppy_bionicpup64_7.9.4 works very fine, and also the puppy_jessie_6.4.2 named Pupjibaro with synaptic continue to be best but sorry not 64 bit. Seamonkey 2.49.4 32 bit is a bit slower in Pupjibaro in very long internet pages of newspapers with pollution of self starting videos... Le Figaro for ex. You can use Semonkey 2.30, the last version based on xulrunner, but it will sometime crash encountring HTML5 with activity like that online newspaper)
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Peterm321

Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov 2018, 19:51    Post subject:  

I'm using Tahrpup 6.

Ext3 is a journalling filesystem which in my view rules it out from use on flash based media.

I use Ext4 (not Ext2/3) on extra partitions (and also works well on flash drives if created by mkfs.ext4 with the journalling disabled (^has_journal).

I have to use Ext2 on my bootable Tahrpup partition because GNU grub version 0.97 will not boot from an Ext4 partition. Other than that, I see no disadvantage using Ext4 instead of Ext3/2.
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tallboy


Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 1080
Location: Oslo, Norway

PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov 2018, 22:50    Post subject:  

I have used the CD with BionicBeaver on my new PC, which is one of the few Puppys newer than Lucid that can save to a multisession CD-R at shutdown. Thank you for that info, James C. Very Happy Funny enough, using the save button on the desktop, only produces a dialog window that asks for a DVD, it will not save to a CD.
And then there is the nvidia problem. A different kernel may be a solution.
musher0's Xenial will not save to a multisession CD/DVD at all.

I'll continue to use ext2 on flash media, I use them only for backup. (2 identical - I have learnt the hard way)

I will test other Puppys to find the optimal one for my use, and report back to you.

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True freedom is a live Puppy on a multisession CD/DVD.

Last edited by tallboy on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 00:28; edited 1 time in total
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perdido


Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 1063
Location: ¿Altair IV , Just north of Eeyore Junction.?

PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov 2018, 23:13    Post subject:  

tallboy wrote:
I have used the CD with BionicBeaver on my new PC, which is one of the few Puppys newer than Lucid that can save to a multisession CD-R at shutdown. Thank you for that info, James C. Very Happy Funny enugh, using the save button on the desktop, only produces a dialog window that asks for a DVD, it will not save to a CD.
And then there is the nvidia problem. A different kernel may be a solution.
musher0's Xenial will not save to a multisession CD/DVD at all.

I'll continue to use ext2 on flash media, I use them only for backup. (2 identical - I have learnt the hard way)

I will test other Puppys to find the optimal one for my use, and report back to you.


There is an nvidia driver for bionic that will work with your card.
NVIDIA-Linux-x86-304.137 pet (nvidia-x86-304.137_k4.9.96.pet)
After installing the nvidia pet you reboot and set up nvidia.
See the third post in peebee's bionic beaver thread that has the link to the driver package.
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=990000#990000

.
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tallboy


Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 1080
Location: Oslo, Norway

PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov 2018, 23:49    Post subject:  

Thank you very much, perdido. Very Happy I have just found an even never nvidia driver for the 4.9.96 kernel in Bionic Beaver, an .sfs uploaded only a few days ago by shinobar:
http://shinobar.server-on.net/puppy/opt/pup5/bionic/

http://shinobar.server-on.net/puppy/opt/pup5/bionic/nvidia-glx-390.87-k4.9.96-lxpup-32-pae.sfs

It says lxpup, does that mean it is compiled with specific kernel instructions, and useless for me?

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perdido


Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 1063
Location: ¿Altair IV , Just north of Eeyore Junction.?

PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov 2018, 23:55    Post subject:  

tallboy wrote:
Thank you very much, perdido. Very Happy I have just found an even never nvidia driver for the 4.9.96 kernel in Bionic Beaver, an .sfs uploaded only a few days ago by shinobar:
http://shinobar.server-on.net/puppy/opt/pup5/bionic/

http://shinobar.server-on.net/puppy/opt/pup5/bionic/nvidia-glx-390.87-k4.9.96-lxpup-32-pae.sfs

It says lxpup, does that mean it is compiled with specific kernel instructions, and useless for me?


The driver from shinobar should be fine.
I missed that one, thanks for the update.

.
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tallboy


Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 1080
Location: Oslo, Norway

PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov 2018, 00:03    Post subject:  

There were others too in the same repo, I saw a new nvidia for Tahrpup as well.
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13166
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov 2018, 00:53    Post subject:  

tallboy wrote:
(...)
musher0's Xenial will not save to a multisession CD/DVD at all.
(...)

Hi tallboy.

Thanks for this report. I'll double-check.

BFN.

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Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 1316

PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov 2018, 02:02    Post subject:  

tallboy wrote:
I have used the CD with BionicBeaver on my new PC, which is one of the few Puppys newer than Lucid that can save to a multisession CD-R at shutdown. Thank you for that info, James C. Very Happy Funny enough, using the save button on the desktop, only produces a dialog window that asks for a DVD, it will not save to a CD.
And then there is the nvidia problem. A different kernel may be a solution.
musher0's Xenial will not save to a multisession CD/DVD at all.

I'll continue to use ext2 on flash media, I use them only for backup. (2 identical - I have learnt the hard way)

I will test other Puppys to find the optimal one for my use, and report back to you.


You must keep your puppies quite small if a multi-session cd is sufficient storage for you!
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 1316

PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov 2018, 02:29    Post subject:  

Peterm321 wrote:
I'm using Tahrpup 6.

Ext3 is a journalling filesystem which in my view rules it out from use on flash based media.

I use Ext4 (not Ext2/3) on extra partitions (and also works well on flash drives if created by mkfs.ext4 with the journalling disabled (^has_journal).

I have to use Ext2 on my bootable Tahrpup partition because GNU grub version 0.97 will not boot from an Ext4 partition. Other than that, I see no disadvantage using Ext4 instead of Ext3/2.

https://lwn.net/Articles/283161/
Do you have any good sources that evaluate if this is a major concern or not? Here is something I found:

Quote:

Typical flash-memory today is rated for 1M writes. There are internal wear-leveling that
ensures that this is that number of writes to the ENTIRE module. (i.e. it is impossible to
wear out flash faster by writing repeatedly to the same location)

So, even a SMALL 1GB flash-memory requires the writing of a minimum of 1000TB worth of data
before it'll start failing. (or another order of magnitude if it's a 1M flash-module)

ext


Also I believe that puppy (when in usbflash mode) minimizes the amount of writes to the flash drive. Since journaling happens during writes to the drive, I suspect that the life of a flash drive should be long if one is runny puppy:

From wikipedia:
Quote:

Journal (lowest risk)
Both metadata and file contents are written to the journal before being committed to the main file system. Because the journal is relatively continuous on disk, this can improve performance, if the journal has enough space. In other cases, performance gets worse, because the data must be written twice—once to the journal, and once to the main part of the filesystem.[13]

Ordered (medium risk)
Only metadata is journaled; file contents are not, but it's guaranteed that file contents are written to disk before associated metadata is marked as committed in the journal. This is the default on many Linux distributions. If there is a power outage or kernel panic while a file is being written or appended to, the journal will indicate that the new file or appended data has not been "committed", so it will be purged by the cleanup process. (Thus appends and new files have the same level of integrity protection as the "journaled" level.) However, files being overwritten can be corrupted because the original version of the file is not stored. Thus it's possible to end up with a file in an intermediate state between new and old, without enough information to restore either one or the other (the new data never made it to disk completely, and the old data is not stored anywhere). Even worse, the intermediate state might intersperse old and new data, because the order of the write is left up to the disk's hardware.[13][14]

Writeback (highest risk)
Only metadata is journaled; file contents are not. The contents might be written before or after the journal is updated. As a result, files modified right before a crash can become corrupted. For example, a file being appended to may be marked in the journal as being larger than it actually is, causing garbage at the end. Older versions of files could also appear unexpectedly after a journal recovery. The lack of synchronization between data and journal is faster in many cases. JFS uses this level of journaling, but ensures that any "garbage" due to unwritten data is zeroed out on reboot. XFS also uses this form of journaling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ext3&oldid=841523874#Journaling_levels
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 4460
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov 2018, 06:45    Post subject:  

oui wrote:
It is probably an error to continue to use

- 32 bit on 64 bit
- ext3 instead of ext4
- old grub legacy instead of official actual grub!


Mmm...

So, in other words, you're recommending the use of 64-bit, bog-standard mainstream Linux. Why? I thought these were the Puppy forums.....not the Debian 'mafia'. And I fail to see what it has to do with helping tallboy to find a 'Puppy' for his needs.

32-bit Pups run very fast on a 64-bit CPU. I've been running them that way for years.....with great success.

And as for 'official' GRUB2.....arrghh!!! I want nothing to do with that misbegotten abortion of a thing. How a bootloader can be that bloated, and need so many different files in so many different places (not to speak of wanting its own partition...??!!), is completely beyond me.

To me, Puppy is all about the K.I.S.S principle. (Keep It Simple, Stupid...) And that's why I like Grub4DOS. For my purposes, at least, it just 'works'....


Mike. Wink

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ITSMERSH


Joined: 02 May 2018
Posts: 585

PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov 2018, 09:56    Post subject:  

He he!

Yes!

Grub4DOS and 32bit Puppy on a 64bit machine!

I have had a machine with Kubuntu 11.04 installed. It was such a hassle to change the boot order on that machine (grub boot loader). Finally I could do it after using pFind and searching for the grub menu entry in text files on HD.

Quote:
How a bootloader can be that bloated, and need so many different files in so many different places

Yes, totally crap imho.

It looks like it was designed mainly to guarantee its developers a full lifetime job. Wink

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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2844
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov 2018, 13:38    Post subject:  

As they say when selling stocks & bonds "Your experience may vary". Rolling Eyes

Peterm321 wrote:
...Ext4 ...with the journalling disabled (^has_journal).

journalling is what enables Ext3 & Ext4 to correct errors. Disabling it returns one to the equivalent of the more corruption-prone Ext2 but (I would think) using more computer resources in order to support Ext4. Moreover, as s243a posted, "I believe that puppy (when in usbflash mode) minimizes the amount of writes to the flash drive". Using grub4dos, or Puppy Installer automatically creates that (Pupmode 13) when installing to a USB-Key. You can manually establish that Pupmode 13 for a hard-drive install. See this thread, skip to the last 2 or 3 pages for Series 5 Puppies, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=81911. There is no good reason for your OS to automatically write to a USB-Stick (or a hard-drive) if you don't have a reason for preserving something. Removing the Automatic-Save reduces wear on your USB-stick as well as avoiding preserving crap.

I have to use Ext2 on my bootable Tahrpup partition because GNU grub version 0.97 will not boot from an Ext4 partition.


There are two versions of Ext4. Grub4dos can not read the 64-bit version of Ext4 now being created when other ('Big Distros') versions of Linux format drives/partitions. The gparted which is built into Puppies (still) creates a 32-bit version of Ext4. Puppies published in the last several years (I think all Series 5) including Tahrpup can boot from and otherwise use a 32-bit Ext4 partition. Earlier Puppies can not.

IIRC --I'm currently too lazy to search for my prior post written after researching the specifics-- the maximum size of a partition which can be managed as an Ext3 partition is 16 Terabytes. I don't have any drive anywhere near that size. Again, suspecting that using Ext4-32-bit will require more computer resources than Ext3, I don't see any advantage, and don't. In short, I use Ext3.

I manually format USB-Keys using gparted. Puppies provide more options when run from a Linux Ext drive/partition. On the other hand, Windows can not natively read Linux Ext drives/partitons and computers using the UEFI boot mechanizm expect such bootloader to not be on a Linux Ext drive/partiton. So, in formatting the USB-Key I create a small (<100 MB) first Fat32 partition to hold the bootloader but place Puppies on the 2nd Ext3 formatted partition. If I expect to use the USB-Key to also transfer files between Windows and Linux, I'll either increase the size of the first partition or create a 3rd Fat32 partition. [I think the latter is a better practice --less likely to screw-up the first partition/bootloader-- but will resort to the former with <=8 Gb USB-Keys].

At any rate, with 1M writes before a USB-Key formatted Ext3 becomes corrupt, it's more likely to be lost/replaced before that happens.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11384
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov 2018, 17:46    Post subject:  

If Puppy is on a USB flash drive.
It boots into pupmode 13.
Has a save icon on the desktop.
In Puppy Event Manager>Save Session
Set save interval to zero(0)
Check the ask at shutdown if you want to save.

Now, as you are booted and running Puppy, any changes, that need to be written to the save, are only in the save ram disk.
Writes are only made to the USB flash drive when you click on the desktop save icon or choose to save at shutdown.
Not a lot of anything going on in ext3 or ext4 until you select to save.

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