Stop using the GPL

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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wiak
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#41 Post by wiak »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_soft ... #Economics
Of particular interest to economists is the willingness of programmers in the free software movement to work, often producing higher-quality than commercial programmers, without financial compensation. In his 1998 article "The High-Tech Gift Economy," Richard Barbrook suggested that the then-nascent free software movement represented a return to the gift economy building on hobbyism and the absence of economic scarcity on the internet.[18] E. Gabriella Coleman has emphasized the importance of accreditation, respect, and honour within the free software community as a form of compensation for contributions to projects, over and against financial motivations.
I wish people would also boycott all shops and supermarkets, producers of food, construction materials, energy supplies, and all the other things needed (or demanded) to sustain our family's lives since these evil entities refuse to produce and supply all there produce for free to the rest of us in the 'community'. Who cares that they couldn't pay their employees (which ultimately includes most all of us?). Yeah, but programmers are different - I suppose it means that professional programmers (those who have programming as a career, meaning those that do it for a living) should get a real job since plenty of programmers willing to do it for free. So how come not many (any?) farmers willing to produce food for free?! I'm missing something in the argument I guess. Or is it indeed that programmers just need 'Ego' praise/satisfaction... oh wow, ain't that silly(?)...

Software being released as open source and re-usable certainly helps other developers build (and improve) future software via modification, expansion, and combination of bits and pieces or whole parts, functions, or libraries of functions (if the software is released with a license, which does not hinder of prevent such combination). That's why, personally, I like MIT license and find GPL licenses generally 'a bit, sometimes more than a bit' annoying.

But do most people in the world work for free (at the professional level)? Do you??! Nice idea, but seems a bit daft to me. Rather, I suspect programmers (even some hobbyist ones) are tending towards Android programming nowadays since most programs written for Android include pop-up adds and the like, which painful though I personally find them, do provide a means of generating some income (and users can pay to have the ads removed). The problem (aside from encouraging programmers, including the amateurs amongst us, away from Linux application programming) is that most such Android applications are not at all open source - they are closed source proprietry. That is the real pain in my opinion. As far as I see it, GPL licensing terms encourage programmers to move towards closed source proprietry. i.e. I think it is fine that professional programmers are paid for their produce (like most every other kind of product producer), but closed source hinders future developments because of its hidden nature, whereas, vice versa, the visible nature of open source helps and encourages human technological advance/development. That's the only true 'moral' reason, in terms of the betterment of human society, that open source is better in my opinion. I disagree entirely that software, in this society we live in, should not cost money for any software that proves to be useful, desired and used. It seems only reasonable to me that, aside from hobby programming software, which is basically a fun pursuit, the cost of useful/desired and used software should be proportional to the time/labour put into its production (like most every other product produced in our type of society) - so what is wrong with that argument, pray tell? Yeah, nice to dream of altruistic utopias and champion them I guess.

Microsoft products are also not open source, and that to me is the rubbish of that product, not that we have to pay to use it. There is a big difference, of course, between the concept of 'open source' and that of 'copyright' or indeed of 'intellectual property right'. If Microsoft released say Windows 10 as open source (in the sense of being able to read the code) and someone then started selling their own compile of it for personal profit, obviously such action would be a 'problem' that needs sorting out (in terms of collaborative software making and paying companies, and their employees, for their hard work).

Making everything opensource, and free to fork and distribute, is certainly a simple (simplistic!) 'solution'. And we all love 'free' things. Come to think of it, by far the majority of professional programmers (which I suspect most of us are not) must surely be working in the proprietry software world, as their day-job at least, or the majority wouldn't be able to make enough money to survive. Yeah, a few make a living out of FOSS 'support', or similar, I suppose - hardly enough such people to make it a worthwhile career however; better to get an interview with Apple, or Google, Amazon, or ... Microsoft? Come to think of it, a friend of mine that I used to work beside ended up employed by Amazon but is now employed by Google in one of their outlets in Singapore; he is very good at all things Linux too as it happens, as good or better probably than most anyone on this forum, but most of his 'wealth' came from working with Microsoft server/networking infrastructure before his later employment with these cloud infrastructure technologies of Amazon/Google.

I wouldn't mind a job with Amazon or Google (if only... dream on...). Nice to get a reasonably well paid job, no? Of course, that's not true - money... paying for things... evil concepts!

wiak

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#42 Post by nosystemdthanks »

I wish people would also boycott all shops and supermarkets, producers of food, construction materials, energy supplies, and all the other things needed (or demanded) to sustain our family's lives since these evil entities refuse to produce and supply all there produce for free to the rest of us in the 'community'.
for a more accurate, less absurd metaphor, try propping up monsanto (now bayer.)

no one wiak, including rms himself, says that anyone who doesnt want to should work free of charge.

they are saying there shouldnt be a monopoly.

basically, theyre saying you should able to copy food, not get it free of charge-- which you can! for every 1,000 years of agriculture, plants were in the public domain and could be copied freely. no patents, no eula, none of it was piracy. only since 1995 was there any legal monopoly on organisms in the united states. and thats a dangerous change.

all of these changes people are boycotting are fairly recent in history. the damage they do is notable. no one is telling farmers they have to work for free. theyre saying its a right to plant seeds.

"home gardening is killing the farm industry! AND ITS ILLEGAL!"
[color=green]The freedom to NOT run the software, to be free to avoid vendor lock-in through appropriate modularization/encapsulation and minimized dependencies; meaning any free software can be replaced with a user’s preferred alternatives.[/color]

musher0
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#43 Post by musher0 »

Hi nosystemdthanks.

You wrote:
freedom of speech and this level of copyright expansion cannot both
happen-- one denies the other its existence. for most of the time this
country has had a constitution, the 1st amendment was not really
bothered by copyright. today there is a constant struggle between them.
its not the amendment thats broken, its modern copyright law that needs
to be struck down. but i dont expect your sympathy there. older copyright
law? not so bothered by it. it worked until they went berserk with it.
Sorry, that's your opinion and I cannot agree. It is clear to me that
freedom of speech has nothing to do with getting paid for your work as
an artist, a plumber or a software dev.

You are free to criticize or praise or ignore my work. THAT is freedom of
speech.

You are NOT free to steal from me any earnings I can rightfully derive
from my work. THAT is a crime.

If you think that royalties are an outdated form of earnings, please invent
another mode by which I can put bread on my table and pay my bills.


About your US-centric remarks --

It is also my deep belief that in this global era, any constitution of any
country should be subservient to international accords. What has been
deemed good for the rest of humanity should also be deemed good for
one's nationality. Minor variations could be allowed for cultural differences,
if need be, but that's it.

That mentality should be fostered in schools all over the world. To think
otherwise is to pave the way to a new type of colonization. Colonization
has no place in a world of equal citizens. Why should any vote be worth
more than the vote of any other citizen of the world?

I realize the current US admin. would like to have the entire world at its
beck and call. So be it. I have the courage of my opinions. Why should
the votes of 5 % of the world population outweigh the votes of the 7.5
billion other voters?

We are not first of all Canadians, Americans, Senegalese, Italians, etc.
First of all, we are humans.

I believe it is important to remember that in a world where armaments
still exist that can destroy continents at the push of a button.

And before anyone of you comes up saying that the above statements
are politically right, left or center: "I don't give a damn."

BFN.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)

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#44 Post by nosystemdthanks »

musher0 wrote:It is clear to me that
freedom of speech has nothing to do with getting paid for your work as
an artist, a plumber or a software dev.
im not the person who implied the two have anything to do with each other-- you and wiak did, and i responded to that.
You are free to criticize or praise or ignore my work. THAT is freedom of
speech.
oh freedom of speech does go beyond just that.

You are NOT free to steal from me any earnings I can rightfully derive
from my work. THAT is a crime.
yes! if i went into your bank account or your home and took your money, that would be a crime. if i quote you without your permission, that is not a crime.

but until we are talking about the same thing, then youre simply equivocating. its a basic logical fallacy, about as basic as fallacy gets. as i said earlier, it generally takes misinformation to sustain a monopoly.
If you think that royalties are an outdated form of earnings, please invent
another mode by which I can put bread on my table and pay my bills.
oh, i think royalties could work to some degree in some context, and people have invented other modes.

in fact, an increasing number of arists (and entrepreneurs) are using those alternatives. one uni professor is building a new university on one of those alternatives (patreon.) people are quitting their day jobs and making a living from this alternative. as well as others.

one or two people have publically stopped producing art as a result of some more recent, failed power grabs. lily allen, sadly, is no longer showering us with her diva-level talent. but apart from that, why arent artists throwing themselves from bridges in droves, like the people who were ruined by the early 20th century stock market crash? after all, this affects artists all over the world! and no one is paying them anymore!

meanwhile, ticket sales are just fine-- musicians make most of their money performing, not recording. (dont tell anybody.)
It is also my deep belief that in this global era, any constitution of any
country should be subservient to international accords.
then start learning to speak chinese. that will come in handy when the world votes on whether to keep french.
What has been
deemed good for the rest of humanity should also be deemed good for
one's nationality.
im not quite that collectivist.
Minor variations could be allowed for cultural differences,
if need be, but that's it.
well, then lets be sure you dont become the king of the world.

"cultural differences" include whether you have a prime minister, president or king. indeed, to some degree they could be considered minor variations.

the world government youre proposing may not work at all. it could be the most oppressive regime in human history.
That mentality should be fostered in schools all over the world. To think
otherwise is to pave the way to a new type of colonization.
i would classify your statement as "not even wrong."
Colonization has no place in a world of equal citizens. Why should any vote be worth more than the vote of any other citizen of the world?
if anyone in the world should equally vote on what happens in america or canada, why stop there? why shouldnt everyone enter your house and vote on what happens there, too? of course they have no claim on your home-- just as putin should have no right to vote here.
I realize the current US admin. would like to have the entire world at its
beck and call.
i have argued against contemporary american copyright in every post here, you have defended it. you are the one siding with us law in this thread, which makes your ad hom completely inappropriate and irrelevant here. on top of the fact that it would be irrelevant anyway.
So be it. I have the courage of my opinions. Why should
the votes of 5 % of the world population outweigh the votes of the 7.5
billion other voters?
and more to the point-- what does that question have to do with any point made by ANY person in this entire thread?
We are not first of all Canadians, Americans, Senegalese, Italians, etc.
First of all, we are humans.
this is a ridiculous response to me working within the reality that copyright (even international copyright) has jurisdictions--

it is disingenuous (and frankly nonsensical) particularly when you are once again conflating dmca with wipo, and i (not you) prefer the un wipo treaty (because its more lax) and you prefer the stricter american terms!

youre the one being more regional here-- wipo really wasnt so bad! in fact this continent has tried and thankfully mostly failed, to get the un to adopt worse terms like the local ones that im against.

so really, what grounds do you have for making this about "the world" at all? it contradicts your stance on the issue, it doesnt support it.
And before anyone of you comes up saying that the above statements
are politically right, left or center: "I don't give a damn."
do you "give a damn" about context or rational argument, though?

because i dont care about left and right on this, just right and wrong.

first ad hom that is doubly irrelevant (because it doesnt apply to me and wouldnt be relevant if it did) and then ad hom that is speculative and hypothetical--

just being intellectually honest would be ideal here-- no ones asking you to do that from any side but your own.

GET THIS STRAIGHT musher-- the usa exports the stricter copyright regime YOU are sided with.

i am not making us-centric remarks. im the one arguing against us-centrism in canadian policy, while you as a canadian welcome it with open arms and reject the more reasonable u.n. policy (it is irrelevant that it is u.n. policy, but wipo is more reasonable nonetheless.)

check your facts and indeed your position, because it is north-america-centric and completely antagonistic to global human free speech rights. your argument is the purest hypocrisy, fallacious and based on the opposite of facts.

id recommend you get to work on fixing at least one of those-- though im not sure if youre requesting payment for an honest argument as well, and providing this one instead as a teaser.

if i had a dime for every time someone on this forum conflated the norms in their country (or their assumption) with the worlds norms-- only so they could falsely accuse an american of doing the same thing because they cant tell the difference between americans and one elected official, i could buy the rights to whatever two songs you authored.

everyone knows that canadians arent trudeau, and the chinese people arent the communist party, and the british arent theresa may-- but that simple fact which is patently OBVIOUS to any literate commenter in the world regarding ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD is completely lost any time someone wants to throw out the accusation that americans are all siding on every jot and tittle with their own idiot in charge.

you cant comprehend how hypocritical, condescending, and ridiculous that makes you. the appropriate response musher, is "up yours." there is a complete double standard on this forum about this-- usually from the brits, since the aussies tend to know better.

those who do this tend hide their own nationalism behind false accusations of the same towards people from countries they dont respect. its pathetic, and your use of it in your arguments is pathetic.

youre too fond of leaning on this supposed worldliness of yours-- dont be such a bái chī. if you have to be so insulting and reason so poorly at the same time, youre only begging to have someone take all of that and throw it right back in your face. bon appétit!
[color=green]The freedom to NOT run the software, to be free to avoid vendor lock-in through appropriate modularization/encapsulation and minimized dependencies; meaning any free software can be replaced with a user’s preferred alternatives.[/color]

musher0
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#45 Post by musher0 »

I will confess that this previous comment of mine is indeed off-thread:
So be it. I have the courage of my opinions. Why should
the votes of 5 % of the world population outweigh the votes of the 7.5
billion other voters?
and that, as an attempt to puncture ill-placed American pride, in this
context, it was unelegant and out of place. Consider it an afterburn of the
recent NAFTA negociations between your country and mine. Please accept
my apologies for that off-topic.

That said, for the rest, in no order:
-- The Geneva Convention offers 50 years recognition of copyright after
death of author; the US, 28 years after initial publication. Sorry, US
legislation; I can and will go with the Geneva Convention.

-- you perceive "ad homs". Re-read my post, there aren't any, against you
or anyone else. My stance was and is FOR internationalism and AGAINST
colonialism. As I mentioned above, mostly off-topic in this thread, although
valid generally.

-- GPL & Co offer no significant alternative to royalties ATM. Most of the devs
on this board contribute to Puppy as a hobby, that's true, and earn a living
otherwise. So no real problem.

The FSF et al. suggest getting paid by selling the docs, but hm... on a
voluntary basis on the part of the "customer". Or charge more for the
packaging and expedition than they really cost.

It's not very logical, is it?, to reroute the earnings generated by one activity
to another. Or honest, for that matter.

In other words, a lot of fancy skating is done around it, but the essential
problem for the free-lancing professionals in this trade, of putting in place a
fair pay system for their work, remains whole.

-- Thank you kindly for peppering your post with all those touching
compliments about me! :lol: ;)

BFN.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)

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#46 Post by aaaaa »

It's all about seeking attention, nosystemd delivered a massive blow
musher0 wrote: I will confess that this previous comment of mine is indeed off-thread:
It's all about attention:

When BSD people attack the GPL, musher0 defends the GPL

musher0 believes that the GPL enforces his copyrighted one-liners that he hasn't donated to mankind, but now he has been exposed again:
musher0 wrote: -- GPL & Co offer no significant alternative to royalties ATM. Most of the devs
on this board contribute to Puppy as a hobby, that's true, and earn a living
otherwise. So no real problem.

The FSF et al. suggest getting paid by selling the docs, but hm... on a
voluntary basis on the part of the "customer". Or charge more for the
packaging and expedition than they really cost.

It's not very logical, is it?, to reroute the earnings generated by one activity
to another. Or honest, for that matter.
It's all about attention and hatred for the USA. Even when it comes to programming he'll find a way to be vocal about french canadian nationalism

Why are programming languages not written in french??!! Why do the english language is messing with my head? Why do i feel the need to hate it? Yes, it's because of colonialism, i'll write in french here so people can see i'm a rebel...

oui oui...
musher0 wrote: -- you perceive "ad homs". Re-read my post, there aren't any, against you
or anyone else. My stance was and is FOR internationalism and AGAINST
colonialism. As I mentioned above, mostly off-topic in this thread, although
valid generally.
Talking about colonialism, it's all about attention. As nosystemd has pointed out , this is how you promote colonialism:
musher0 wrote: It is also my deep belief that in this global era, any constitution of any
country should be subservient to international accords.
It's all about attention. Trolling is all about attention..

PS: this post should be preserved for the future: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 89#1010289

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#47 Post by nosystemdthanks »

musher0 wrote:Please accept
my apologies for that off-topic.
chinta mat karo, mafi mat mangoo
(dont worry, you dont have to apologise)
-- The Geneva Convention offers 50 years recognition of copyright after
death of author; the US, 28 years after initial publication. Sorry, US
legislation; I can and will go with the Geneva Convention.
the wipo treaty (the berne convention) is the limit that you say it is. but you are applying it wrong-- where there are two jurisdictions, it is generally the lesser that legally applies internationally (much like if one person has a 56k modem and the other has dsl or cable, the transfer between them will never exceed 56k.)

however, i dont know what century youre in regarding this:
the US, 28 years after initial publication. Sorry, US
legislation;
no, originally it was 14 years with a 14 year extension, then 28 years with a 28 year extension-- and these were only registered works.

as long ago as 1976, that changed to all works in a fixed medium whether registered or not. it was that recently when fair use came about to mitigate this.

as of the clinton administration, it became 95 years for a corporation, life plus 75 for individuals. thats more than 50 years no matter how you look at it.

i prefer wipo. but the exported versions (acta, tpp) dont just extend the terms they reduce the exceptions. thats tyrannical. it is also an existential threat to puppy (and anything like it) in some jurisdictions.

note that wipo is still 50 years to this day-- meanwhile, disney retroactively extends the term every time mickey mouse is about to go into the public domain.

there are not many regions in the world with perpetual copyright, but disney is getting it on the installment plan. britain has perpetual copyright on the kjv, but it has no jurisdiction outside of britain (the lesser term length applies once again.)

-- GPL & Co offer no significant alternative to royalties ATM. Most of the devs
on this board contribute to Puppy as a hobby, that's true, and earn a living
otherwise. So no real problem.
the vast assortment of gpl software allows you the right to use and redistribute the software (whether you do anything else at all) provided that you do not keep public changes to yourself. in other words, the only restriction is you may not restrict your contributions to the existing assortment.

you do not have to add to it at all. but if you do, you must contribute the additions that hook the operating system.

this doesnt legally affect what you do outside of that codebase.
The FSF et al. suggest getting paid by selling the docs, but hm... on a
voluntary basis on the part of the "customer". Or charge more for the
packaging and expedition than they really cost.
like everything else youve said about the gpl so far, this is a fraction of what is actually said and an oversimplification at that part of it as well.

it is common knowledge that you can sell copies of gpl software, but due to the fact that anybody can, there is not much money to be made from copies.
It's not very logical, is it?,
i do not believe you are deliberately committing strawman fallacy, but the thing you say isnt very logical is also not what the fsf says. like many things youve complained about so far-- it is a hypothetical, non-existant version of the fsfs position and policy.
In other words,
not just in other words, in a purely irrelevant scenario that has nothing to do with the fsf or gpl, really--
a lot of fancy skating is done around it, but the essential
problem for the free-lancing professionals in this trade, of putting in place a
fair pay system for their work, remains whole.
whats unfair about the gpl? you think you have said, but you havent touched it yet. you have said a few things about some other license or policy that does not exist-- and i am not calling you a liar, i am saying you are mistaken.

(as you are about the american copyright terms.)

note that perpetual copyright isnt just unconstitutional (article 1, section 8-- "by securing for limited times")

its also very rare globally, and very impractical-- without perpetual copyright, which was pushed forward as a concept (albeit an unconstitutional one) by american mpaa head jack valenti more than any other person in history-- "intellectual property" itself is just intended to conflate physical property laws with government-granted monopolies.

they work differently, the laws are different, and if intellectual property really did exist in reality, youd need to pay up for your right to use a piano. or the alphabet. or bachs 12-tone scale.

which you get for free, just like with free software.

a historical lesson here: for most of copyrights existence, including the dawn of higher-level languages like b-0 and cobol, copyright didnt apply to software at all.

you couldnt copyright software. you still cant copyright math, either-- which software (and yes, music) maps to, 1:1.

ultimately, people are being very unconstitutionally prosecuted and charged subscription fees for the right to share very long integers.

stuff isnt entering the public domain after 50 years-- if it was, i wouldnt be so pissed off about it. we would be getting new stuff every year-- which is the only purported purpose of this modern copyright:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Clause#History

instead, the entire public domain is being skated around with unconstitutional laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Do ... lic_domain

it wasnt until software went from being a gratis commodity to a newly-legislated monopoly that gates sprung up and started telling people they couldnt share programs.

the fsf didnt have a radical, illogical idea. it exists to work around the historically recent, radical, illogical idea that long integers can be owned by a person or corporation:



032110111119032119104097116032119097115032105108108111103105099097108032097098111117116032116104101032103112108044032097103097105110063 = "now what was illogical about the gpl, again?"

the encoding is different than ascii or unicode, the implication is the same.

here is the legal paradox of all copyright law in the internet age:

all analogue recordings can be sampled (at a rate where the senses cannot distinguish further resolution) into digital files, and all digital files can be mapped to a single integer.

take the largest of the integers-- lets pretend its all 5 seasons of babylon 5, and then produce a work that consists of every consecutive number from 0 to that integer.

the consecutive list of integers is not copyrightable.

now take any one of those individual numbers of sufficent length, which refers 1:1 to a film or book or photograph that isnt in the public domain.

distribute one of those numbers, and it is a crime. but the list of numbers (where a single line contains your song or photo or program) is not copyrightable. it is just a consecutive list of integers.

reduced to mathematics, copyright is nonsense and contradicts itself.

you cant copyright math, you certainly cant copyright a number. but if that uncopyrightable number overlaps with the integer encoding of a protected work, that uncopyrightable number is prohibited from redistribution by copyright law.

so pure integer math isnt copyrightable by law, but it is in practice.

thus, copyright continues to exist because:

a. greed

b. people suck at math

c. people dont like lawyers, but still prefer them to philosophers (and math)

d. we are still holding onto a legal concept that became pure nonsense (but still a nice handwavey idea) the moment that we had machines that could do the math

e. all of the above

if you think d. is fun now, wait for ai to become even more mainstream.

youll be prohibited from composing a song because a program wrote it first. indeed, it could do that just by writing out that same consecutive list of integers-- if that list were copyrightable.

until enough people figure out how silly all that is, this is the best way to put a work like this long integer into the public domain:

Code: Select all

    license: creative commons cc0 1.0 (public domain)
    http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/
it works in places like finland, where you cant even do that-- so for finns, it does the next best thing.

license: creative commons cc0 1.0 (public domain)
http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/
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#48 Post by musher0 »


Last edited by musher0 on Sat 17 Nov 2018, 00:14, edited 1 time in total.
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#49 Post by nosystemdthanks »

i think your 1982 work was misquoted, as the copyright term was already more than 28 years by then.

http://www.tomwbell.com/writings/%28C%29_Term.html
I think we should not confuse patent and copyright.
the entire purpose of the term "intelectual property" is to confuse patent with copyright, copyright with trademark, and all of the above with physical property rights-- all of the above have different laws and limits. by conflating them it is easier to maximise each one. it is harder for people to know what to comment about them.

kudos to you then, if you reject the term "intellectual property" although it is in "wipo".

but yes, a piano would be a matter of patent and not copyright.

generally speaking, the piano patents expired after 20 years (there might be an extension after that, but not a perpetual one) and the way they skirt that is to make dubious resubmissions with minor changes-- some of which are legit, others are dubious.

but good to know about bach.

what these things have in common is-- all are intended to go into the public domain. the canadian version doesnt look that different than the american one or the british one in practice. there are differences in exceptions-- some places have fair use, others have fair dealing as exceptions..

fair dealing is easier to establish because its so exact-- but it is also more restrictive for the same reason.

but yes, we should avoid conflating patents and trademarks and copyright-- unless it is to point out that they are often conflated.
[color=green]The freedom to NOT run the software, to be free to avoid vendor lock-in through appropriate modularization/encapsulation and minimized dependencies; meaning any free software can be replaced with a user’s preferred alternatives.[/color]

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#50 Post by musher0 »

About comflation...

The fruit basket on my Out house table contains an apple, a pear and a banana.
Although in the same fruit basket, they are still respectively an apple, a pear
and a banana...

BFN.
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#51 Post by nosystemdthanks »

musher0 wrote:The fruit basket on my Out house table contains an apple, a pear and a banana.
Although in the same fruit basket, they are still respectively an apple, a pear
and a banana...
thats not conflation, thats grouping by category. theres no confusion between apples and bananas.

take out the apple, pear and banana and then put in a cucumber, tomato and grape. its a bit more like that. "apples and oranges" are also fruits for that matter:
apples and oranges - drawing comparisons between events or sets of circumstances that seem to share a common denominator but are in fact distinct from one another by virtue of having occurred during different time periods, in different places, under different socio-economic conditions, to different groups of people, etc., can lead to the incorrect assumption that, just because something is true under one set of circumstances, it will necessarily hold true for all circumstances of a similar sort. The act of making such comparisons is sometimes referred to as "comparing apples and oranges."
https://qcpages.qc.cuny.edu/writing/his ... acies.html

you can make valid comparisons, and invalid ones.

it isnt conflating when the comparison is valid or relevant-- but when it glosses things over or misses the point, thats when people start pointing fingers at it. both are fruit-- both exist in the same universe-- that doesnt mean they are the same thing in a way that is relevant to the discussion. though it depends on what two things are being compared, and which aspects.

if the topic is the levels of citric acid, you wouldnt put apples and oranges together except for contrast-- rather than comparison.

all of which is really obvious, but when people conflate other things in an argument, it is not always readily noticed.
[color=green]The freedom to NOT run the software, to be free to avoid vendor lock-in through appropriate modularization/encapsulation and minimized dependencies; meaning any free software can be replaced with a user’s preferred alternatives.[/color]

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