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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
If this goes through at woof-CE, let Puppy die.
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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 3774
Location: holland

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 07:09    Post subject:  

musher0 wrote:
But being emotional is not a bad thing: it is part of being human. In
"emotion", there is "motion": if enough emotion is expressed, it tends to
get things moving.

Just my opinion:
I think being emotional is indeed not a bad thing in general if you share with a person nearby and face to face, but in this context it's not useful at all (the contrary, I'd say).
Calling the person that's doing most of the hard work for Puppy "Enemy #1" is just ridiculous.
How would you feel reading that if you were in wdlkmpx's shoes ?

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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13776
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 07:43    Post subject:  

Hi Fred.

Personally, I'd laugh. It is indeed ridiculous that I have to do this to bring
some devs to their senses.

What you have to understand is that those people are like bosses isolated
in their corner office. They think they are working for the common good,
but they are in fact piling up problems for ordinary users.

They will not pay attention and react unless you do something almost
extreme, like this. Because they are generally water-proof to comments
by us common users.

Best regards.

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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mfb

Joined: 22 Mar 2016
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 07:52    Post subject:  

musher0,

He who laughs last, laughs longest.

I'm happy to test your amusement, should you wish, but I'd much prefer a Flash reaction.

I'll add as many edits here as may be needed.
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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 2107
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 08:50    Post subject:  

musher0 wrote:


They will not pay attention and react unless you do something almost
extreme, like this. Because they are generally water-proof to comments
by us common users.



I have memories of discussions about the isolation of devs....someone even defended them by telling us(paraphased) the devs developed for themselves not the users, and it was not our place as users to request or suggest things of the devs.

I think you've brought up a very important specific issue and by extension a crucial general one.

Thom
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 3284
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 10:13    Post subject:  

Wow. Such animosity.

musher0 wrote:
What you have to understand is that those people are like bosses isolated
in their corner office. They think they are working for the common good,
but they are in fact piling up problems for ordinary users.

They will not pay attention and react unless you do something almost
extreme, like this. Because they are generally water-proof to comments
by us common users.

Who are "those people"?
Who are "they"?
Why not just call "them" out by names? There are so many Puppy devs here, we have 666philb, peebee, mistfire, 01micko, gyrog, Geoffrey, wdlkmpx, and so many others. Which ones of these are part of "them", instead of "us"?
What are the "problems" that "they" "pile up"?
How do you know that "they" "will not pay attention"? Examples?
"Something extreme" means insulting them? Calling them names? How do you think "they" would respond?

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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11920
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 10:37    Post subject:  

Any comments made about anything posted to Woof-CE at Github, will be considered by whoever posted the issue and any others working on the issue.

I have done it and so have others.
There work needs tested, just like a new Puppy version does.

If you think Woof-CE is doing something wrong or something is wrong.
The only way the people actively working to improve the core processes, of Puppy and woof-CE, are going to know about it, is to tell them.

Again register on Github so you can post in the Woof-CE section.
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE

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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13776
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 11:45    Post subject:  

Being labeled "Enemy #1 in Puppy Land at the moment" is certainly not
pleasant, but your personal reputation is not under attack. There is a
nuance there.

It is an opinion made public. That's all it is. That person, in private, may
be the nicest person you'll ever meet.

But the software solutions he is proposing may make your life really
miserable. Was it he who introduced the horrific duplicate vs copy
confusion in the new version of ROX-Filer?

@jamesbond: groups have different personalities and behaviors than
the group members as individuals. Hence the use of the words "they",
"them", and similar.

@all: I'm rattling a cage that needs to be rattled.

@bigpup: I'll repeat: for the life of me, I cannot get to the github forum
and leave a message there, it is too darn complicated. There is no
understandable doc about it to speak of anywhere on that github site.
Sailor Enceladus helped me once to leave a message there, but I never
got an answer. (It wasn't for the woof-CE project.)

Plus: this here is the real Puppy forum. The devs should have antennas
here, not only among themselves.

BFN.

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I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 3284
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 12:35    Post subject:  

musher0 wrote:
Was it he who introduced the horrific duplicate vs copy
confusion in the new version of ROX-Filer?
To the best of my knowledge, it was woodenshoe who did that, not wdlkmpx: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=114169. And mind you that this is an often-asked (or requested) features. Again the changes didn't happen because woodenshoe just feels like it.

Quote:
@jamesbond: groups have different personalities and behaviors than
the group members as individuals. Hence the use of the words "they",
"them", and similar.
But that's assuming that they do work as a group. Which they don't. Continuing to call them as a group when they aren't is the same as stereotyping; and stereotyping doesn't help anyone.

Quote:
It is an opinion made public.
And you're entitled to your opinion, of course.

I'm just saying that if you really want to solve the issue then it's better to contact the particular person using their usual channel of communication.

Quote:
@bigpup: I'll repeat: for the life of me, I cannot get to the github forum
and leave a message there, it is too darn complicated. There is no
understandable doc about it to speak of anywhere on that github site.
Sailor Enceladus helped me once to leave a message there, but I never
got an answer. (It wasn't for the woof-CE project.)

1. Login with your github account.
2. Go to Woof-CE repo: https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE, and then click "Issues", directly under the Woof-CE title. Or just click here: https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/issues
3. Then click "New Issues" button. It is green colour button in case you missed it.
4. Air your grievance in the given textbox, then click "Submit New Issue" (also a green colour button).

Hope that helps.

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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11920
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 12:42    Post subject:  

Ok How to post at Woof-CE on Github

1. Go to https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE
2. Click on Sign Up button (top right of web page).
3.At sign up web page https://github.com/join
Make a Username.
Give Email address.
Make a password.
Now you have a username and password to sign in with to Github.

To do a post.
On the Woof-CE web page at Github. https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE
1. Click on Sign in button (top right of web page)
Use your Github username and password.
2. At top of web page are tabs for code, issues, pull requests, wiki, and insights.
There are two places to post.
Issues or pull requests.
Issues are something you want talked about, fixed, you found a problem, etc.....
Pull requests are for posting a fix you found, new code you made, something you offer for woof-CE, etc......

Example post to issues:
1. Click on issues tab
(issues web page will open showing list of posted issues)
2. Click on new issue button (top right on web page)
3. This should now show place to enter what you want to post. Finish entering what you want to post.
4. Click on submit new issue button.
5. Back at the issues web page with listed issues. Your new issue should now be listed.

Posting to a listed issue or pull request.

Example a listed issue:
1. Click on the issues tab.
2. Click on a listed issue.
3. At bottom of the comments for that issue is a place to post a new comment.
Enter what you want to say.
4. Click on comment button.
Your comment should now be showing in the list of comments for that issue.

I do not think I need to say this, but here goes.
After you make a Github username and password.
It is good to use anytime you want to sign in to Github.

To make any comments to an issue or pull request, make a new issue, or make a new pull request.
You have to be signed into Github first.

_________________
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
YaPI(any iso installer) http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=107601
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3045
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 13:14    Post subject: Attack of Modularity and Creativity?  

As you know, I'm not a 'tekkie'. When I examine code, it's like pulling teeth. I can systematically look up the terms used and perhaps obtain some understanding of the information conveyed, but it's a foreign language. [I can use the same process to decipher most European Languages and Hebrew]. On the other hand, by now I have a pretty good understanding of Puppy Linux as a system, what each component does, how it relates to other parts of the system and what alternatives there are for accomplishing one's objective.

My take on the 'commit' is that it is destructive not because it limits the ability to re-use SaveFiles, but because it locks development of Puppies into only those using the current kernels supported by Woof.

As bigpup pointed out, the ability to re-use a SaveFile/Folder has always had limitations. For example, you can't simply change the name of one built under Tahrpup and expect it to function on a Slacko. Or even a Xenialpup. At best, you might rename it as, for example, adrv_slacko_6.3.2.sfs, which having lower priority, would avoid conflicts although the included applications may not work OOTB. Or ever. And as Marv pointed out, to even to use a SaveFile/Folder within an upgrade of the same Puppy Version should be proceeded by 'scrubbing' applications effected by the upgrade.

[I do something else. I open PPM>Uninstall, take a snapshot, install the up-graded Puppy to a different folder and reinstall those applications I still want, using the snapshot as a guide].

I'll also point out that recently its become increasingly difficult to transfer a SaveFile/Folder to a different computer: in some instances the architecture of the creating computer apparently becomes locked in

However, thanks to the work of nic007 and shinobar before him, what was once a confusing and time consuming project, Remastering, has become quick and --relatively-- easy. And ITSMERSH's PaDS also makes the creation of adrvs a simple process, though whether they can be transferred from one version of Puppy to another suffers the same limitations as that of merely changing the name of a SaveFie's to an adrv.

From the viewpoint of creativity, however, one of Puppy's strong points, since jemimah spear-headed modularity, has been its ability to easily swap kernels and their associated drivers. Need a nopae kernel? Easy: download one, change a couple of names and use it. Acquired more than 4 Mbs of RAM and now need a kernel which can use it: download a kernel which can, change a couple of names and use it. There's been a kernel break-through regarding spectre or some newly discovered exploit? Easy, download the new kernel...

I don't build kernels. But rockedge, sailor enceladus, 666philb and peebee do; and wiak has an extensive understanding of how the woof-build process functions. Their work has been at the forefront of keeping Puppies current with the latest innovations. I wonder to what extent the 'commit' limits their creative efforts or those of others who might want to join them?

Last edited by mikeslr on Sun 17 Feb 2019, 15:35; edited 2 times in total
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11920
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 14:04    Post subject:  

Here is a issue at Woof-CE I just posted in.
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/issues/1330
I think I gave the information they where looking for.

_________________
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
YaPI(any iso installer) http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=107601
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11920
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 14:11    Post subject:  

GO READ THE WOOF-CE CODE CHANGE AGAIN.
There are many comments added to it from when you first posted this topic.
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/commit/4c4e13921b2486e8a38261aa8d466442ade611aa
Comments are at the bottom.

wdlkmpx wrote:
As i said, the suggested change to offer the option to refuse or proceed With the upgrade will probably implemented on monday. I've been working 12 hours straight, and i'll work 3 more hours


See, if you comment on Github, they do listen to what you say!

However, there does seem to be some reasons for wanting to do this.

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The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
YaPI(any iso installer) http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=107601
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13776
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 15:00    Post subject:  

I sincerely hope that the devs there have antennas here.

For one thing, I discovered a man-made "cancellation" when building
the DPupBuster:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1018770&sort=lastpost#1018770

It goes like this:
-- fetch, unpack and prepare the Xorg drivers for a new pet;
-- now erase the specific drivers for the keyboard and the mouse. Very Happy

Don't laugh. True story. Proof is in PhilB's mini-recipe here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1017969&sort=lastpost#1017969
in a config file called _00build.conf.

Hopefully this will not happen too often!

Isn't there there a famous quote from the New Testament: "Let your right-
hand dev undo what your left-hand dev is doing?" (Or something like it;
not verbatim).*

This is not meant as disrespect, it's supposed to be humor!

BFN.
~~~~~~~~~~~
* - Correct quote is : "Let not your left hand know what your right hand
does." (Matthew:6:3).
But context is giving to the poor! Not Puppy development!

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I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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666philb


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 3385
Location: wales

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2019, 07:26    Post subject:  

musher0 wrote:


It goes like this:
-- fetch, unpack and prepare the Xorg drivers for a new pet;
-- now erase the specific drivers for the keyboard and the mouse. Very Happy

by removing those drivers xorg then uses the evdev driver for the keyboard and mouse. puppy will then also use /etc/X11/xorg.conf.udev as a base for xorg.conf and populate it using udev. this allows touch screens to work and allows 3rd party applications such as the nvidia driver application to write to the xorg.conf without borking puppy.

_00build.conf. is a file you can use to apply final tweaks & fixes to the build. some of the stuff in the dpupbuster one may not be applicable as i just copied it from bionic. it is up to the builder to populate it for the puppy that they are building.

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foxpup


Joined: 29 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
Location: europa near northsea

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2019, 12:22    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
GO READ THE WOOF-CE CODE CHANGE AGAIN.
There are many comments added to it from when you first posted this topic.
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/commit/4c4e13921b2486e8a38261aa8d466442ade611aa
Comments are at the bottom.
I need a "Puppy for dummies" Very Happy
I am not sure I understand correctly. It seems to be about updating and upgrading Puppy Shocked
What righteous Puppy-user ever bothers about updates? Maybe change a kernel, yes, but upgrade? I know some flavours offer it, but it is not really Puppy, is it?
If it works, it works. If you want something else you install another Puppy entirely.

And I do not see what it has to do with the Pupsave.
Please explain.

BTW, one of the best things in Puppy is how harmless it is to 'break' a Puppy.
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