(OLD) (ARCHIVED) Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index (OLD) (ARCHIVED) Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info

This forum can also be accessed as http://oldforum.puppylinux.com
It is now read-only and serves only as archives.

Please register over the NEW forum
https://forum.puppylinux.com
and continue your work there. Thank you.

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups    
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Fri 27 Nov 2020, 13:17
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
frugall or full install?
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. View previous topic :: View next topic
Page 1 of 2 [19 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Author Message
Gnimmelf

Joined: 12 Feb 2017
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Thu 28 Mar 2019, 07:51    Post subject:  frugall or full install?
Subject description: Witch is fastest? and why?
 

I tried to install different versions of puppy, latest bionic pup, with both frugal and full install. i notice that the full install is running with the lowest amount of ram, around 135 (bionic), and frugall install runs with a bit more, around 175. the frugall might be a bit faster loading a browser or so, even though it runs with a bit more ram? could someone please eksplain the difference to me? witch is fastest in witch situations? what are advantages and disadvantages in the to different kinds of install?

Kindly gnimmelf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 3702
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Thu 28 Mar 2019, 09:05    Post subject:  

Default should be Frugal. It has the most options available and makes the best use of the available resources.
A full install should only even be considered on machines with:
Low memory
A very slow processor.
In an environment where machine stability is under question.

_________________
"Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush" - T Pratchett
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3913
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Thu 28 Mar 2019, 11:56    Post subject: Speed is not the only consideration  

Puppy Linux was first developed to run from a CD. All versions run as Administrator (root) with the privilege to access any drive/partition and file: to modify them and delete them. On bootup a Frugal install copies some files from "storage" into RAM and creates inodes (pointers) to the rest of the files in storage. Originally on a CD, those files are compressed. A Frugal install merely relocated/copies those compressed system files from the ISO to a Hard-drive or USB-Stick. With the exception of a Frugal's SaveFile, all those system files are READ-ONLY. READ-ONLY and compressed it virtually impossible for a hacker to corrupt them. Without a SaveFile or SaveFolder each time you boot into a Frugal Puppy you are booting into a Pristine Operating System. The User creates the SaveFile or SaveFolder to preserve settings, customizations and installed applications. They are Read-Write, by default saving changes every 30 minutes. But the User can change that interval, including to NEVER Save, except when a manual command to do so is issued. And there is now an application which, after you've made necessary settings and desired customisations, enables you to convert your SaveFile/Folder into a READ-ONLY sfs. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1053410#1053410. So run, Puppies are almost invulnerable.

The ability to create a Full Install was developed (a) when computers had slow-by-today's-standards processors and typically only 256 Mbs of RAM or less; and (b) there was less concern about malware. A Full Install requires an entire partition to itself as all the compressed files of the ISO are decompressed into that partition. Remember other Linux distros run applications as USER with limited access to folders beyond that created for that user, and limited permissions to install anything: i.e., su + password.

But like other Full installs, a Puppy Full install constantly reads from and writes to "storage". When you install an application to a Frugal Puppy it only exists in RAM until a Save is executed. If there's a problem you can uninstall it before Saving, or reboot without Saving. Under a Full Install, an application is written to Storage immediately, over-writing any conflicting files. Uninstalling can leave applications that needed those conflicting files broken. Malware you unknowingly pick up while surfing is written to "storage" immediately. It is virtually impossible to fix a broken Full Install.

You can backup the SaveFile/Folder of a Frugal Install. In the worst case scenario, you can delete a problem SaveFile/Folder and substitute the good SaveFile/Folder backup. Or build a new one. Remember, the files which came in your ISO are READ-ONLY. They're as good as they ever were.

A Frugal Install can use SFSes. SFSes are applications --even application suites-- which are not installed but merely loaded and unloaded as and when you choose. SFSes make it easy to safely upgrade applications. You just download a new version, unload the old version and load the new version. If you have a problem with the new version, you can unload it and reload the old version. By way of contrast, when you install a new pet it over-writes files on you system. That may break other applications which used the old files. And if the newly installed application doesn't work, uninstalling it does not replace the files of the old version, leaving you without any version and the need to find, download and install the old version.

Unloaded, an SFS uses no RAM at all. A Full Install can not load or unload an SFS. It can only install it.

From your own experience you noticed that the addition RAM required on bootup of Frugal was about 40 Mbs compared to a Full. How much additional speed to you think 40 Mbs translates into when you have 1000 Mbs of RAM? 2000 Mbs of RAM? 8000 Mbs of RAM. Even with only 500 Mbs of RAM, with today's powerful & multiple CPUs, you're talking about micro-seconds.

The only justification I've seen for running a Full Install on a computer powerful enough to run Bionicpup64 is that those micro-seconds will add up when you are compiling a large program. By extension, I think that might also be the case when creating a long video requires conversion of codecs. But, IMHO, the better advice is that rather than running as a Full install, start the resource-intensive parts of such projects when you won't need your computer for a while -- as in just before you go to sleep. Or have a Full Install just for those projects.

For normal daily use, you want a Frugal.

Last edited by mikeslr on Wed 08 Jul 2020, 10:45; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
gychang


Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 416
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Thu 28 Mar 2019, 12:24    Post subject: Re: Speed is not the only consideration  

mikeslr wrote:
Puppy Linux was first developed to run from a CD. All versions

You can backup the SaveFile/Folder of a Frugal Install. In the worst case scenario, you can delete a problem SaveFile/Folder and substitute the good SaveFile/Folder backup.

A Frugal Install can use SFSes. SFSes are applications --even application suites-- which are not installed but merely loaded and unloaded as and when you choose. Unloaded, an SFS uses no RAM at all. A Full Install can not load or unload an SFS. It can only install it.

For normal daily use, you want a Frugal.


thanks for a very good summary...

_________________
---
trying to learn puppylinux... Very Happy
---
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Gnimmelf

Joined: 12 Feb 2017
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Thu 28 Mar 2019, 13:52    Post subject: Re: Speed is not the only consideration  

mikeslr wrote:
Puppy Linux was first developed to run from a CD. All versions run as Administrator (root) with the privilege to access any drive/partition and file: to modify them and delete them. On bootup a Frugal install copies some files from "storage" into RAM and creates inodes (pointers) to the rest of the files in storage. Originally on a CD, those files are compressed. A Frugal install merely relocated/copies those compressed system files from the ISO to a Hard-drive or USB-Stick. With the exception of a Frugal's SaveFile, all those system files are READ-ONLY. READ-ONLY and compressed it virtually impossible for a hacker to corrupt them. Without a SaveFile or SaveFolder each time you boot into a Frugal Puppy you are booting into a Pristine Operating System. The User creates the SaveFile or SaveFolder to preserve settings, customizations and installed applications. They are Read-Write, by default saving changes every 30 minutes. But the User can change that interval, including to NEVER Save, except when a manual command to do so is issued. A SaveFile can not be written to except through use of the Save mechanism. Properly configured and used, a Frugal install using a SaveFile is almost invulnerable to malware infestations.

A SaveFolder is less secure. It is not compressed. Any of its files can be edited or deleted. Any file can be added to it by any application.

To read the contents of a compressed file into RAM requires the use of RAM and processing power. Less is needed to read an uncompressed file into RAM.

The ability to create a Full Install was developed (a) when computers had slow-by-today's-standards processors and typically only 256 Mbs of RAM or less; and (b) there was less concern about malware. A Full Install requires an entire partition to itself as all the compressed files of the ISO are decompressed into that partition. Remember other Linux distros run applications as USER with limited access to folders beyond that created for that user, and limited permissions to install anything: i.e., su + password.

But like other Full installs, a Puppy Full install constantly reads from and writes to "storage". When you install an application to a Frugal Puppy it only exists in RAM until a Save is executed. If there's a problem you can uninstall it before Saving, or reboot without Saving. Under a Full Install, an application is written to Storage immediately, over-writing any conflicting files. Uninstalling can leave applications that needed those conflicting files broken. Malware you unknowingly pick up while surfing is written to "storage" immediately. It is virtually impossible to fix a broken Full Install.

You can backup the SaveFile/Folder of a Frugal Install. In the worst case scenario, you can delete a problem SaveFile/Folder and substitute the good SaveFile/Folder backup.

A Frugal Install can use SFSes. SFSes are applications --even application suites-- which are not installed but merely loaded and unloaded as and when you choose. Unloaded, an SFS uses no RAM at all. A Full Install can not load or unload an SFS. It can only install it.

From your own experience you noticed that the addition RAM required on bootup of Frugal was about 40 Mbs compared to a Full. How much additional speed to you think 40 Mbs translates into when you have 1000 Mbs of RAM? 2000 Mbs of RAM? 8000 Mbs of RAM. Even with only 500 Mbs of RAM, with today's powerful & multiple CPUs, you're talking about micro-seconds.

The only justification I've seen for running a Full Install on a computer powerful enough to run Bionicpup64 is that those micro-seconds will add up when you are compiling a large program. By extension, I think that might also be the case when creating a long video requires conversion of codecs. But, IMHO, the better advice is that rather than running as a Full install, start the resource-intensive parts of such projects when you won't need your computer for a while -- as in just before you go to sleep. Or have a Full Install just for those projects.

For normal daily use, you want a Frugal.


Thank you wery much for the eksplanation! Smile

kindly Gnimmelf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
tallboy


Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 1767
Location: Drøbak, Norway

PostPosted: Thu 28 Mar 2019, 16:17    Post subject:  

Miike, you have a special way with words! Very Happy
That short, but extremely informative summary, should be the first sentence a potential puppy user would meet when they ask the question How?, and could replace all previous information on Puppy installation.

_________________
True freedom is a live Puppy on a multisession CD/DVD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 6397
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Thu 28 Mar 2019, 19:49    Post subject:  

Nicely put, Mike. As tallboy says, you do have a 'way with words'.

The only thing I can think of to perhaps add is that Puppy does of course have the ability to use alternate save-files/folders. One way round the business of compiling could be to have a special 'over-sized' save-file or save-folder, reserved specifically for compiling (given that that particular exercise can require plenty of space to run in, depending on what it is that you're trying to compile.)

Otherwise, as stated; nicely put.


Mike. Wink

_________________
MY 'PUPPY' PACKAGES

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
peterw

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 431
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu 28 Mar 2019, 19:52    Post subject: Frugal Install versus Full Install  

Thanks mikesir. Your description helped me clarify my understanding of frugal versus full installs.
One addition I would add is that a frugally installed Puppy offers you the option to encrypt the Save File and then if anyone gets access to your USB stick or PC (wherever you have Puppy) then they cannot get access to any of the information you have in it. When you boot Puppy you will be asked for the password to load the Save File. Works well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 1555

PostPosted: Thu 28 Mar 2019, 21:11    Post subject:  

I say it every time this comes up, so I'll say it again.

The best way to make new users understand the difference is to give the "full install" a more accurate name.

My first choice would be "legacy install."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
keithcleaver

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Tue 02 Apr 2019, 06:48    Post subject: Re: Speed is not the only consideration  

mikeslr wrote:
Puppy Linux was first developed to run from a CD. All versions run as Administrator (root) with the privilege to access any drive/partition and file: to modify them and delete them. On bootup a Frugal install copies some files from "storage" into RAM and creates inodes (pointers) to the rest of the files in storage. Originally on a CD, those files are compressed. A Frugal install merely relocated/copies those compressed system files from the ISO to a Hard-drive or USB-Stick. With the exception of a Frugal's SaveFile, all those system files are READ-ONLY. READ-ONLY and compressed it virtually impossible for a hacker to corrupt them. Without a SaveFile or SaveFolder each time you boot into a Frugal Puppy you are booting into a Pristine Operating System. The User creates the SaveFile or SaveFolder to preserve settings, customizations and installed applications. They are Read-Write, by default saving changes every 30 minutes. But the User can change that interval, including to NEVER Save, except when a manual command to do so is issued. A SaveFile can not be written to except through use of the Save mechanism. Properly configured and used, a Frugal install using a SaveFile is almost invulnerable to malware infestations.

A SaveFolder is less secure. It is not compressed. Any of its files can be edited or deleted. Any file can be added to it by any application, including any malware just existing in RAM you unknowingly picked up while surfing the Web.

To read the contents of a compressed file into RAM requires the use of RAM and processing power. Less is needed to read an uncompressed file into RAM.

The ability to create a Full Install was developed (a) when computers had slow-by-today's-standards processors and typically only 256 Mbs of RAM or less; and (b) there was less concern about malware. A Full Install requires an entire partition to itself as all the compressed files of the ISO are decompressed into that partition. Remember other Linux distros run applications as USER with limited access to folders beyond that created for that user, and limited permissions to install anything: i.e., su + password.

But like other Full installs, a Puppy Full install constantly reads from and writes to "storage". When you install an application to a Frugal Puppy it only exists in RAM until a Save is executed. If there's a problem you can uninstall it before Saving, or reboot without Saving. Under a Full Install, an application is written to Storage immediately, over-writing any conflicting files. Uninstalling can leave applications that needed those conflicting files broken. Malware you unknowingly pick up while surfing is written to "storage" immediately. It is virtually impossible to fix a broken Full Install.

You can backup the SaveFile/Folder of a Frugal Install. In the worst case scenario, you can delete a problem SaveFile/Folder and substitute the good SaveFile/Folder backup.

A Frugal Install can use SFSes. SFSes are applications --even application suites-- which are not installed but merely loaded and unloaded as and when you choose. Unloaded, an SFS uses no RAM at all. A Full Install can not load or unload an SFS. It can only install it.

From your own experience you noticed that the addition RAM required on bootup of Frugal was about 40 Mbs compared to a Full. How much additional speed to you think 40 Mbs translates into when you have 1000 Mbs of RAM? 2000 Mbs of RAM? 8000 Mbs of RAM. Even with only 500 Mbs of RAM, with today's powerful & multiple CPUs, you're talking about micro-seconds.

The only justification I've seen for running a Full Install on a computer powerful enough to run Bionicpup64 is that those micro-seconds will add up when you are compiling a large program. By extension, I think that might also be the case when creating a long video requires conversion of codecs. But, IMHO, the better advice is that rather than running as a Full install, start the resource-intensive parts of such projects when you won't need your computer for a while -- as in just before you go to sleep. Or have a Full Install just for those projects.

For normal daily use, you want a Frugal.


I used to use Puppy Linux back in the old days, and having seen an announcement on DistroWatch that 8.0 was released, I decided to come back and take a look.

I was confused by the install options (having not installed Puppy for a while), and this was a super helpful summary.

Thanks for that!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Gnimmelf

Joined: 12 Feb 2017
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Thu 25 Apr 2019, 03:34    Post subject: frugall or full install?  

I tried to run tests on frugal, full and usb install. i used hardinfo and speed-battle on Opera browser. the full install won in every aspect!

Why is that?

Kindly Gnimmelf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3444
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Thu 25 Apr 2019, 04:27    Post subject:  

Did you run the full and frugal installs on the same storage media?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Gnimmelf

Joined: 12 Feb 2017
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Thu 25 Apr 2019, 09:55    Post subject:  

nic007 wrote:
Did you run the full and frugal installs on the same storage media?



Yes - the internal hard drive on the hp laptop. i also compared against a usb installl, and the full install on internal hard drive still won......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 13981
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 25 Apr 2019, 10:02    Post subject:  

What specific version of Puppy did you use to do the testing?
What test in Hardinfo?

_________________
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
YaPI(any iso installer)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
rufwoof


Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 3725

PostPosted: Thu 25 Apr 2019, 14:51    Post subject: Re: frugall or full install?
Subject description: Witch is fastest? and why?
 

Gnimmelf wrote:
I tried to install different versions of puppy, latest bionic pup, with both frugal and full install. i notice that the full install is running with the lowest amount of ram, around 135 (bionic), and frugall install runs with a bit more, around 175. the frugall might be a bit faster loading a browser or so, even though it runs with a bit more ram? could someone please eksplain the difference to me? witch is fastest in witch situations? what are advantages and disadvantages in the to different kinds of install?

Depends upon your hardware. For me, using compressed sfs (i.e. frugal), compressed using lzo level 1, is faster on a mechanical HDD that reading non compressed. i.e. compression is around 50% so half as much data being read from disk plus time to decompress in ram is faster than reading twice as much from disk with no decompression overhead. For other choices of compression, such as more commonly used gzip or xz, that can be slower than processing non compressed.

Some like to copy the main sfs into ram at bootup. Which makes subsequent access quicker, however personally I don't bother with that, I just leave it to the system to manage what it keeps cached and accept slower initial (first read) process time, with the benefit of less ram being used (if you don't use gparted for instance during a session its not read into ram at all, but if you copy the whole sfs into ram at bootup then gparted is loaded into ram despite not being used). The downside of not copying the whole sfs into ram is that whatever medium you read from has to remain connected (if you copy the whole sfs into ram at bootup then the medium can be removed/detached).

Often the speeds only differ for first runs. Once a program has been loaded into ram once it can remain cached such that subsequent runs are no different to whichever method is used.

Having the entire filesystem in a sfs has the benefit that that is quick to intrusion detect i.e. check the checksum of that single file. Personally I check the mbr, grldr, vmlinuz, initrd and main sfs. I also store my save folder content as a sfs, so I also check that as well before extracting to wherever the save folder is stored (I set my system so that a 'save' action creates that sfs and records its checksum).

Another benefit of using sfs for me is that I create secondary sessions, i.e. I mount the main sfs aufs joined to a changes folder to have a 'top' folder, and I then chroot into that top folder and have another separate session running concurrently. That takes up near zero additional space initially and is very quick to set up. I can then run things in that (chroot) and either preserve the changes that occurred within that instance, or just delete it (not save). A bit more complicated than that, as I also set that 'container' to use Xephyr, i.e. its own separate X server (so more secure). That's a full second desktop, and typically I'll run my browser(s) within that, whilst keeping my data and ssh private keys etc. outside of that (inaccessible) i.e. in the main session. I also tend to run the container with a socks5 proxy i.e. in the main system I ssh into a ssh server and within the container (chroot) I set the browser to use the local main system port that I attached the ssh server to. So collectively my browser runs as non-root, within a chroot and with its own X, where that can't see my main systems data folders or ssh keys and where my ISP (local state) can't really see where I'm browsing, they just get to see that I set up a ssh into a remote box and encrypted data flowed through that ssh tunnel. And sites I visit don't see my real IP either, only the IP of the ssh server that I ssh into. Another benefit of that is that as the ssh keys are pre-established, if you're in a internet cafe or wherever any man-in-middle attacks will be flagged (pretty much impossible to m-i-m a private/public key ssh connection without raising a warning). The benefit of being able to create/dispose of secondary sessions using the main systems sfs along is alone a considerable benefit, especially if you like booting the exact same time proven session over and over again.

I did consider taking that to the Android type level, i.e. a separate session for each program, but for me that was over-kill. Typically I use a clean boot of my main system for banking, data and ssh, and a second session (container/chroot) for other general activities (browser etc.).

First image has my main systems tray at the top of screen, container (chroot) at the bottom of screen. Google chrome in container with socks5 shows the wrong IP (as desired), a totally different continent to my actual location. User Agent is also wrong (I'm running Linux Fatdog), so less prone to having OS/browser specific attacks at you. Second image shows my main desktop running a terminal (xterm), and running my local tmux within that, with that tmux window ssh into a remote ssh server, that is also running tmux (severs tmux windows shown at the bottom i.e. mail and irc, where I'm logged into the puppylinux channel).
s1.png
 Description   
 Filesize   62.75 KB
 Viewed   298 Time(s)

s1.png

s2.png
 Description   
 Filesize   173.08 KB
 Viewed   295 Time(s)

s2.png


_________________
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) :wq
Fatdog multi-session usb

echo url|sed -e 's/^/(c/' -e 's/$/ hashbang.sh)/'|sh

Last edited by rufwoof on Thu 25 Apr 2019, 16:15; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 2 [19 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2 Next
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.0908s ][ Queries: 13 (0.0086s) ][ GZIP on ]