Installing Puppy Linux to USB, from the same USB

[Anders3]

Is there an easy way to install Puppy Linux, from having booted puppy linux from a USB?

What I'm thinking of is booting into Puppy, then erasing all files on the USB (that was also used to boot) and then downloading the ISO image and then doing the install directly, using the installation app from puppy, will this work?

Or maybe I can do an HDD install and then install puppy on the USB from the HDD install, downloading the ISO image. Will this work, and if so, how do on go about doing it?

Then I would just delete the HDD install from windows, since I don't need it.

What is the best and most secure way of doing this since I only have one USB memory and no CD writer (so can't use a CD written ISO image)?

[foxpup]

I am baffled.
You want to delete Puppy to put it back on the same place?

You can install a Puppy in its own folder besides the old Puppy(s).
And you can do it manually.
Just open the iso and copy initrd.gz, vmlinuz and all .sfs to a folder.
Then run grub4dos and let it install on the usb if it is not on it yet,
and let it make a new menu.lst.

If you need UEFI boot, you have to add that.
Explanation here in the second part of the post.
(For uefi you need some fat32.)

You can remove the first Puppy on your pendrive after rebooting into the newly installed Puppy.

NB You do frugal installs, don't you? You better!
.

[mikeslr]

Ditto what foxpup wrote. Just would add that to avoid confusion when you create the folder for the new version give that folder a Unique Name. Perhaps slacko2 or slackoN -- N for new. That way you're less likely to remove the wrong Puppy.

[Mike Walsh]

I have to confess to being equally baffled.

What I'm thinking of is booting into Puppy, then erasing all files on the USB (that was also used to boot) and then downloading the ISO image and then doing the install directly, using the installation app from puppy, will this work?

Well, yes; you could (in theory). But, er.....why would you want to?

If all you want to do is to make Puppy like a new install again, there's no need at all to delete the actual OS files; just delete your save-file/folder. This returns Pup to 'as-new' condition, since your personal configuration changes are now gone, leaving only the default settings as 'mastered' in to the original ISO.

Since Puppy boots from 'read-only' files anyway, you effectively get a brand, spanking-new, squeaky-clean OS every time you boot. It's not like a traditional, 'full' install like the mainstream distros, where your changes get written into the system as they're made; this is all to do with the union aufs 'layering' of the file-system which Puppy uses.

To remove all your changes & alterations, you simply remove the file/folder that contains all your changes.....the save-file/folder. This is also why Pup is so simple to back-up; you just copy the save-file/folder to somewhere safe.....a simple copy/paste operation will suffice.

Puppy may, initially, seem excessively over-complicated. But once you get the hang of how it all meshes together, it really is incredibly easy to work with.

You'll never catch me running anything else now, 'cos compared to Puppy, everything else out there is too much like hard work..!

--------------------------------

Delete the save-file/folder. Shut down. Boot back into Puppy, and after setting up the defaults (keyboard, time-zone, etc.), shut down again immediately, and let Puppy create a new save-file or save-folder.

It's as simple as that. It's also perfectly possible to run with multiple save-files/folders, so long as they have different names; at boot, Puppy will then ask you which save-file/folder you wish to use (this is kind of like Pup's version of multiple users using the same system, y'see.)

Multiple Puppies on the same stick, along with multiple save-files/folders to select from.....Puppy is very versatile, y'know..!


Mike.

[foxpup]

Puppy may, initially, seem excessively over-complicated. But once you get the hang of how it all meshes together, it really is incredibly easy to work with.

You'll never catch me running anything else now, 'cos compared to Puppy, everything else out there is too much like hard work..!

Mike, we probably don't remember that well how we had to work and ponder in the beginning until we understood.

@Anders3I love the way you dig into it.

[Mike Walsh]

@ foxpup:-

Mike, we probably don't remember that well how we had to work and ponder in the beginning until we understood.

Oh, trust me, mate, I do, I do.....

I cringe when I think back and remember some of the daft things I attempted during my first 12-18 months with Puppy. Things that seem so obvious now were shrouded in mystery in those days.

But this is why I try and help out as much as I can on the Forum nowadays.....because I, in my turn, had so much friendly, useful, informative help when I was first starting out. And it was very much appreciated; after all, it's what a community is for, isn't it? Share & share alike, help each other out where we can. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. We all have different skill sets/levels, and varying strengths & weaknesses.....

I think this is why our community works as well as it does.


Mike.

[foxpup]

This is Puppy, resistance is futile.

[Anders3]

Basically when having it installed from unetbootin, win 7, and then doing the save I only get 4GB memory. Now I want to be able to use about 15 GB, since the USB memory is 16 GB large.


So thats why I want to do a full install or frugal. Will a full install or a frugal one be most like the system I have now (installed on the USB with unetbootin as mentioned, using the fat32 file system)?


Is there a speed difference between frugal installs and a full install? Which is fastest if so?


I tried to do a new install to the USB that the 4GB puppy was on I went for full install and I don't think I created a grub4dos. It asked that I should find the iso or sfs (cant remember) and then it supposedly built the system from knowing where that was at.


It didn't work. Did not start up.


Could I just keep the current install I have on the USB and somehow increase the memory to like 15 GB from the 4 GB I have now?


How does the frugal install work? Will that put all the files for the frugal puppy inside an expandable file within the current installed puppy (the 4 GB one)?


Would a frugal install to the harddrive be faster than a full USB install?


Does it matter really. I will use one or two audio apps simultaniously, but I assume they load the files from memory into RAM when using it. Is that so? Ans I also assume the apps are fully running in RAM and only use the memory to load samples into RAM, is that so? If it works like that, it doesn't matter for me, since it doesn't really matter how long it takes to load things just as long as they run great when up and running and having been loaded.

[foxpup]

That's a lot of questions!

Would a frugal install to the harddrive be faster than a full USB install?

Yes. Don't do full install unless you have very little RAM.
But with windows7 that is unlikely.
What machine do you use?

How does the frugal install work? Will that put all the files for the frugal puppy inside an expandable file within the current installed puppy (the 4 GB one)?

No, you can put Puppys next to each other or any other Operating System (like windows), side by side, not inside each other, each in their own folder/directory.

Basically when having it installed from unetbootin, win 7, and then doing the save I only get 4GB memory.

I do not know unetbootin, so I do not know how it has installed Puppy.
I suppose you mean a pupsavefile of 4G. Which is very big!
This is not memory for running but for saving your sessions (if you want). RAM is what is used for running.
If you format the usb to ext2/3/4 you can have a pupsavefolder that will expand on the partition it is in as it fills up.

I went for full install and I don't think I created a grub4dos...
It didn't work. Did not start up.

Even if you had used it, it probably would need some adjusting to boot a full install.
But if you have not installed it, the bootloader that unetbootin put there before does not know about this knew Puppy.

Anyway, I think you should use LICK from windows7 to install Puppy on your harddrive next to windows7.
PS:
It will probably ask if it can shrink some partition of windows and make an ext2/3/4 partition.
Do that if you can, because of what I said before about pupsavefolders.
You will not have to care that much about the size of the pupsave then.

[bigpup]

Frugal install is better than a full install.
Some features of Puppy Linux only work on a frugal install.
Basically you have a frugal install now on the USB stick.

Fat32 format was used by Unetbootin, because all computers will see that format as a bootable USB stick.

Puppy frugal install uses a save file/folder to store anything changed or added to Puppy.
Fat32 format will only allow a save file and fat32 has a max file size limit of 4GB.

You can store stuff outside of the save file.
/mnt/home location is the other area of the usb drives partition outside of the save.

Installed programs need to go into the save file, but anything else can go into /mnt/home
Documents, pictures, downloads, backups, anything, etc.......
That is the easy thing to do.
Store stuff in /mnt/home

A save folder can be made (only limited in size by the free space on drive partition), but it has to be made on a Linux formatted location. (ext 2, 3, or 4)

The problem is you cannot format the USB stick while it is mounted, using the save file, and running Puppy from it.

Got another USB stick you could setup or install and run Slacko from it?

Boot Slacko from one USB stick and use the programs in Slacko to partition, format, and install Slacko to the other USB stick.

+1 agree.
If you want to try and install Slacko, as a frugal install to the hard drive, alongside Windows 7.
USE LICK to do it!!!!!!!

[bigpup]

Frugal install is faster than a full install.
Almost all of Puppy Linux loads into memory.
A program is already loaded in memory, when you select to run it. It starts fast.

A full install only loads the stuff needed to run Puppy.
When you start a program. It has to load into memory and then start. Takes longer to do that.
However, a lot of programs in Puppy Linux are small. So, you do mot see much speed change.

WE need info about your computer.
Make and model or specs if you know them!!!!!

Mainly this will tell us what boot loader is going to work on it.

[Anders3]

My computer is a PC, 2 GHz chip, 2 GB RAM, c

If you format the usb to ext2/3/4 you can have a pupsavefolder that will expand on the partition it is in as it fills up.

But then the whole USB has to be initially formated to Ext4 before doing the install right? But when I install Puppy on the USB from win, then it does it in the fat32 system.

But when saving the system at first shutdown, the save folder maximum size 4 GB is saved in ext4. Will it be expandable even though the rest of the USB is fat32, or do the whole USB memory have to be ext4 for it to be expandable?

You can store stuff outside of the save file.
/mnt/home location is the other area of the usb drives partition outside of the save.

A save folder can be made (only limited in size by the free space on drive partition), but it has to be made on a Linux formatted location. (ext 4)

So I have to make a new folder in the home location? Or can I just use the home folder directly? Or won't it work because it is in the fat32 filesystem?

So is it the home folder that has to be ext4? Or a folder I create within it?

Boot Slacko from one USB stick and use the programs in Slacko to partition, format, and install Slacko to the other USB stick.

So I should format the whole USB to install the frugal to in ext 4 and then do the install to that empty USB from within Puppy Linux? But wont that make the save space larger than 4 GB, since that is a restriction from using the fat32 file format? Will I still have to use the mnt/home location?

[bigpup]

I can see we are having a big problem getting you to understand what we are saying.

I am not sure how to get around this.

This is about using the USB flash drive of Slacko, the way it now is, When Unetbootin did the install of Slacko.
Using the save file that will only go to 4GB in size.

Use /mnt/home as another storage location for stuff.
This is outside of the save file.

/mnt/home in Puppy is the top layer of the USB drive partition.

If you just looked at what is in the drives partition. No deeper than that.

To see it visually.
In Rox File Manager navigate to /mnt/home.
Or on the desktop.
Lower left side of the Slacko desktop.
Left mouse click on the desktop drive icon for the USB drive partition.
If you have just a hard drive and a USB flash drive.
The USB drive desktop drive icon should be sdb1.

You can make folders(directories) in /mnt/home to put stuff into or just put it directly into /mnt/home.

[bigpup]

So I should format the whole USB to install the frugal to in ext 2/3/4 and then do the install to that empty USB from within Puppy Linux Slacko64? But wont that make the save space larger than 4 GB, since that is a restriction from using the fat32 file format? Will I still have to use the mnt/home location?

Yes on an ext 2, 3, or 4 format, a save file can be made bigger than 4 GB.
But if you have a ext formatted location to put the save on when you make it.
You can make the save a folder and not a file.
A save folder acts like any folder, it auto adjusts in size, only limited in size by the free space on the drive partition.

/mnt/home is still useful to store stuff outside of the save.

[Anders3]

So then the space in mnt/home used to save things outside of the usual save space (the 4 GB created at first save) is in the fat32 format?

Won't it be a problem for Puppy Linux Slacko64 version 6.9.9.9, to read and write correctly to the mnt/home part since it is fat32? Won't puppy linux need an ext 2/3/4 fomated part to be able to read and write from it?

Also will using the mnt/home be about the same speed as using an expandable folder when the whole system is on an USB formated initially to ext 2/3/4?

Will Puppy Linux work better, be faster if I install it on a USB initially all in an ext format? Or is it the same as fat32. With the perspective that it seems that Linux is made to use the ext formats mainly?

[foxpup]

So much questions again.

mnt/home is like D: in windows, but almost noone uses it there or my_documents, my_music, etc.
pupsave is inside the system and should only have what would be on C: (except my_...) in windows.
The analogy is not perfect, but it gives you an idea.
/mnt/home does not replace pupsave or vice versa.
Pupsave should not be big.
There is a good topic by shinobar about it: Keep your savefile slim and healthy

LICK will (probably) install on fat32 because it runs from windows.
(I haven't used LICK myself, so not sure.)
It is not a problem. Do it anyway.
Then you will have a Puppy next to windows on your HD.
Consider it a rescue Puppy. I always have one.
From that it will be easy to install working Puppys if you need to.
But perhaps it will be just right anyway.

On first shutdown of this Puppy you will be offered to make a pupsave.
Before that, use gParted in Puppy to create a ext2/3/4 partition for your pupsave on the free space you have on your HD.
You can have your pupsave on that partition as a folder then.

[Mike Walsh]

@ Anders3:-

As Bigpup has explained:-

FAT32 is the standard format that all USB drives are sold with. FAT32 only allows a maximum file size of 4 GB.....it's a very old limitation that goes all the way back to DOS days, when Microsoft were first starting to develop the Windows operating system - think late 70s/early 80s.

It's been 'baked-in' to Windows code for so long now that it won't be getting changed anytime soon.....and since Windows is the most-used OS, that's the format manufacturers supply USB drives in, because by doing so they get 'Windows certification' (and that's the 'industry standard' that they all want).

With me so far?

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The Puppy 'save-file' is a very special kind of file. It contains an entire, Linux-formatted file-system inside of it - Puppy needs this to run correctly - yet despite this, the FAT32 file-system sees it as one single file. Hence why the 4GB limitation applies. Okay?

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Now; all Linux distros, including Puppy, have the capability to natively read from/write to M$-standard file-systems.....primarily FAT32 and NTFS (which is the standard format required by Windows). This doesn't work the other way round, however; Windows cannot see Linux file-systems without help, usually 3rd-party applications that allow it to 'see' and 'understand' the Linux file-systems, and hence to read from/write to them. All right?

We're getting there....

---------------------------------------------------

What you can do - and many 'Puppians' do exactly this - is to create directories in the remaining space outside of the save-file. These directories can then be 'sym-linked' back to your 'home' (/root) directory, for easier access.

This also has the advantage of keeping your personal data safe, and separate from Puppy itself, in case anything goes wrong with it. (Which is unlikely, but it can happen).

For these directories which are external to Puppy itself, the file-system format is unimportant.....it's only data, as opposed to critical stuff like boot-loaders, etc. And remember, Puppy will have no problem with reading from/writing to them.

Hopefully, the above will clarify things a wee bit!


Mike.

[mikeslr]

Hi Anders3:-

For once 'tother Mike was more verbose than me. Or maybe just as. So, I case you got lost: The factory format of USB-Keys is Fat32 and that limits a file size to 4 Gb. A SaveFile, being a File, will be limited to that maximum size if it is on a Fat32 partition.

That's not really a problem. Only once did I ever have to use a SaveFile greater than 4Gb*. Usually they are in the 1Gb range, sometimes much smaller, rarely 2Gb. As 'tother Mike suggested, you can keep SaveFiles small by (a) Using Applications packaged as SFSes or portable Apps; and (b) keeping your datafiles --the files you create with your applications-- outside of 'Puppy-Space'. That is when you create a file --such as when you click 'File-Save' in LibreOffice-writer-- don't put it in /root/my-documents. Instead, click File>Save>Other Locations>Computer>mnt>home>FOLDER_of_YOUR_CHOICE. Note the 'mnt': any location you reach thru 'mnt' is NOT in your SaveFile.

Or better yet: Open rox to /root. Open a second rox-window to /mnt/home. Left-Press, Hold /root/my-documents; then drag it to /mnt/home and select Move. Left-Press, Hold /mnt/home/my-documents, then drag it back to /root. Select Link(relative). This creates a symbolic link such as 'tother Mike mentions. The 'my-documents' folder will now be physically located on /mnt, but it's been symlinked to /root. Consequently, your applications will 'see' it as if it was in /root, and that will be the first place they offer to save data to or open data from.

-------
Alternate remedy to the 4Gb Fat32 problem, See this post http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 55#1012755. But you can't follow those instructions if you boot into Puppy from the USB-Key you want to restructure. You'll have to boot into a different Puppy -- one on a CD/DVD, a different USB-Stick or a hard-drive. [Puppy automatically mounts the drive/partition it boots from; it can't be unmounted; and gparted can not work with mounted drives/partitions].

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* I was trying to run Dragon Naturally Speaking under Wine and needed about 10 Gb. But after a lot of work, it still wouldn't run.

[bigpup]

Mike Walsh and mikeslr,
You had to tell him/her about sym-links
Need to crawl before you can walk!

Also will using the mnt/home be about the same speed as using an expandable folder when the whole system is on an USB formated initially to ext 2/3/4?

Yes.

Will Puppy Linux work better, be faster if I install it on a USB initially all in an ext format? Or is it the same as fat32. With the perspective that it seems that Linux is made to use the ext formats mainly?

Well, Linux is now made to use any of the main formats as far as read/write.
So you will not see a speed difference.

The difference in formats is really about what features they have.
Well, not that simple.
Ext 2, 3, or 4 is a Linux format with the file system setup the way Linux uses a file system.
A little less complicated for Puppy Linux to use.

Ext formats have better features than fat32.
Ext formats were developed so Linux did not have to use Windows formats. Windows controlled them.
Linux was and is about doing things differently, better, etc....

Really if you want to know the differences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_system

[Mike Walsh]

Mike Walsh and mikeslr,
You had to tell him/her about sym-links
Need to crawl before you can walk!

Ah. Erm....ooops? (*sotto voce* - Bugger!)

Damn. ('Scuse my French...) Y'know, I always knew there was a reason we let you deal with the 'newbies'....

(*crawls away and hides under rock*) ...<> *grumble, grumble* </>


Mike.