Flaming Winmodems

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WaltA
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Re: Everyone is welcome

#1 Post by WaltA »

[Wasre of time
Last edited by WaltA on Fri 19 Aug 2005, 09:19, edited 1 time in total.

WaltA
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#2 Post by WaltA »

[Wasre of time
Last edited by WaltA on Fri 19 Aug 2005, 09:20, edited 1 time in total.

Bruce B

#3 Post by Bruce B »

WaltA wrote:Oh, and by the way, while I an here in the beginners forum and subsequent to my previous post: :-

Whilst surfing the various Linux fora I see a lot of bleating about how manufacturers dont support Linux
yet I (think) I have found two drivers(?) from Intel that one of which may(?) support my winmodem
but I have not been able to find any Linux that incorpoates it(them) :(
It is a winmodem you are talking about. A piece of hardware that was specifically designed for Windows. It was not designed for any other OS except Windows. It doesn't even work on DOS.

Even when I used Windows I tried to avoid winmodems because they were so limited in their design. They also used more resources than hardware modems.

Winmodems were cheaper to make. Consumers bought them and computer manufacturers included them in place of an actual modem.

What suprises me is that there is 'any' Linux support for winmodems.

Winmodems are evil.

WaltA
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#4 Post by WaltA »

[Wasre of time
Last edited by WaltA on Fri 19 Aug 2005, 09:24, edited 1 time in total.

Bruce B

#5 Post by Bruce B »

WaltA wrote:
[text cut]

So, what do we do about it ?
My honest opinion is that you don't have a modem. You have the illusion that you have a modem. The illusion is not of your making, marketing experts and strategy did it do you.

What to do? Buy a modem.

WaltA
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#6 Post by WaltA »

[Wasre of time
Last edited by WaltA on Fri 19 Aug 2005, 09:25, edited 1 time in total.

WaltA
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#7 Post by WaltA »

[Wasre of time
Last edited by WaltA on Fri 19 Aug 2005, 09:22, edited 2 times in total.

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mike
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#8 Post by mike »

Oh, my honest opion is that you should piss off into your own little world
Wow, who asked for a light?

Flash, why'd you have to go and say how reasonable and polite everybody has been? ( :-) )


:?

PS: Penguins don't bleat. Only sheep do.

WaltA
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#9 Post by WaltA »

[Wasre of time
Last edited by WaltA on Fri 19 Aug 2005, 09:23, edited 1 time in total.

WaltA
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#10 Post by WaltA »

[Wasre of time
Last edited by WaltA on Fri 19 Aug 2005, 09:21, edited 1 time in total.

Bruce B

#11 Post by Bruce B »

Walt, respectfully, you have misintepreted my earlier post. Nothing I wrote was in respose to anything Lobster wrote or to anything you wrote, except the specific item I quoted. You thought it was in a greater context and it wasn't.

Bruce B

#12 Post by Bruce B »

WaltA wrote:
Bruce B wrote: I repeat, I have seen on Linnmodems etc much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth and general wailings about lack of MANUFACTURERS support for Linux, that when one does offer some limited support what does he get,,,
oh it is only a winmodem, oh it isnt one of us oh dear me,
well wake up, you cant have it both ways.
Winmodems can end up being an excercise in futility.

As for the can't have it boths ways. You can have it the right way the first time. If someone has a winmodem they probably bought it. Maybe they bought it with the computer or separately. This was probably done in ignorance of the future, not knowing they would be changing operating systems.

Would you actually buy one today? I don't think so. You would buy the right modem the first time around. A hardware modem that works with virtually all operating systems.

On the subject of lack of manufacturer support. I'm building a Linux computer right now for someone. (I wish it was for me.)

I have fully supported hardware for Linux and if he wants to install XP that would work also. I also hand picked the hardware.

There is some Windows only hardware, but not much Linux only hardware.

Meaning that in purchasing hardware with full Linux support, I didn't have to compromise by not having lack of Windows support.

--------------------

Linux does not have enough critical mass to pressure enough vendors at this point. At least not enough to suit me. This will change because the future is Linux in a big way.

---------------------

I think the hardware frustration we have is mostly because we are trying to change operating sytems on hardware that was purchased to meet the necessary specs for another operating system.

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Walt H
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#13 Post by Walt H »

Bruce B wrote:If someone has a winmodem they probably bought it. Maybe they bought it with the computer or separately. This was probably done in ignorance of the future, not knowing they would be changing operating systems.

Would you actually buy one today? I don't think so. You would buy the right modem the first time around. A hardware modem that works with virtually all operating systems.
This does not take into account those who, like me, bought a computer from a vendor with Linux pre-installed, not knowing that the modem included is still basically a winmodem, made to work with the preinstalled distribution (in this case, Xandros). Luckily, it is also one of the two soft modems supported in Puppy.

So, when I bought my "Linux system" (from Microtel), I thought I was buying a hardware modem, only to find out I wasn't. Although I do understand the difficulty in making such modems work under Linux and wish it wasn't so, I also don't think simply telling someone to "buy another modem" is going to endear Puppy or any other Linux distribution to newcomers. (Besides which, not all of have enough desk space for yet another piece of equipment. :) )

I do think that most people on these forums have worked hard to explain the situation. I also wish more could be done to get such modems working in Linux. In my perfect world, Linux works as well as Microsoft, regardless of the hardware. Hardware vendors will also be a bit more upfront and detailed about the specifics of the components used to build their systems.
Walt

Now that you point it out to me, the answer seems painfully obvious.

Bruce B

#14 Post by Bruce B »

Walt sorry to read about the Mircotel experience. I've seen ads for them and wondered how universal they would be. I hope you don't mind if I learn from your experience.

I'm a technician. Years of experience thinking like a technician.

My goal is generally to (1) make an accurate diagnosis (2) fix the problem - no more and no less.

Actually, I'm more retired than anything right now and my services are given joyously and free, as in the forum for example.

Suppose I'm working for you professionally. My time costs 65 dollars per hour. You have a problem with your modem not working. As quickly as I see you have a winmodem in Linux, the modem is condemned.

My strategy is remove the modem if it is not integral to the motherboard, and plug in and external modem. Suppose the external modem costs 100 dollars.

The bill will be 165 dollars. 65 for an hour of my time and 100 for the modem.

If I tried to save you the cost of a modem by tinkering with the winmodem for two hours and failed. You would end up with a bill of the two hours lost, plus the hour installing and configuring the hardware modem. 295 dollars.

It takes me less that one second to condem a winmodem and decide to install a hardware modem. It takes me a few minutes to explain to my client my intention and the reason why.

-----------------

Different strokes for different folks ...

My dad is what is called a 'computer scientist' he thinks differently than I, and works (worked as he is retired now) in groups solving problems. His approach is so different than a technician's approach.

If you were having the same discussion with him the correspondence would go on for pages and last for weeks as every factor and consideration is evaluated in minute detail.

-----------------

In any event I've hated winmodems before I even considered Linux. I hate them more now.

If I am abrupt and simply write: "Winmodems are evil. Buy a hardware modem." Don't take any offense because I didn't mean to be abrupt in a way that offends. I'd say the same thing to a woman I loved.

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danleff
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#15 Post by danleff »

Bruce;

You missed one solution.

$199 for Windows XP + $130 for labor (1 hour. for the installation and 1/2 hour to find the right driver and install it) = $329.00.

Sorry, i could not help it!
Last edited by danleff on Sat 20 Aug 2005, 00:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Ian
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#16 Post by Ian »

Much like the man who built the electric car that cost $1 for electricity to travel 1000 miles and $250,000 for the extension lead.

Guest

#17 Post by Guest »

My view on this winmodem issue..


People don't like being told what they have will not work and if they want that particular functionality they have to acquire something that that will work.
It's not the fault of Linux...it's the fault of harware manufacturers refusing to support Linux
You have a modem either A it will work or B it will not work

If your in catergory A then all is good

If your in catergory B then you can either C choose to acquire the correct hardware or D choose not to acquire the correct hardware.

If you fall into catergory C then all is good

If you fall into catergory D, the choice is yours but please do not bitch and moan...the choices are there, the decision is yours.

Yes I know it can suck being duped into buying what you thought was a hardware modem....but the super cheap price should really sound alarm bells in your head.....and if you new to computers\linux buy, beg, borrow or otherwise acquire an extrenal modem of the non-usb variety
[/quote][/code]

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Walt H
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#18 Post by Walt H »

bladehunter wrote:My view on this winmodem issue..
[snip]
You have a modem either A it will work or B it will not work

If your in catergory A then all is good

If your in catergory B then you can either C choose to acquire the correct hardware or D choose not to acquire the correct hardware.

If you fall into catergory C then all is good

If you fall into catergory D, the choice is yours but please do not bitch and moan...the choices are there, the decision is yours.
First off, I'm not a big fan of oversimplification, and I think this part of the post is an oversimplification of what I tried to relate. Besides which, being on a budget, after buying a brand new Linux system, I was not able to buy and should not have had to think about buying a new modem. In addition, as I mentioned, I don't really have the desk space for yet another piece of hardware. Is everyone saying there are no newly made internal modems that work easily under Linux?
bladehunter wrote:Yes I know it can suck being duped into buying what you thought was a hardware modem....but the super cheap price should really sound alarm bells in your head.....and if you new to computers\linux buy, beg, borrow or otherwise acquire an extrenal modem of the non-usb variety
Why should the price sound alarm bells? Computer prices are dropping all over the place; I would expect the same to happen with Linux systems. As it was, the comparable Windows system was less expensive. When a vendor advertises a system as being either a Linux system or a Linux-compatible system, it and all of the components in it should be exactly that. Yet I suspect that even companies that sell nothing but so-called Linux systems are making the same misleading statements about their systems and components.

If you go back to my original post, I never said the modem didn't work. The problem is that the system, billed as a Linux machine, should have been billed as strictly a Xandros (or perhaps Debian) only machine. The machine included a driver for the modem, so it did work under Xandros. However, moving to another distribution meant that the modem would no longer work without a lot of effort, except in the case of Puppy, which had the necessary driver available.

Perhaps I should have been clued in by the fact that certain systems were sold with Xandros on them and others with Linspire, and none of them offered any choice of distribution, but I wasn't. It did strike me as a little odd, however, I was so excited at finding a new "Linux" system I could afford (in fact, I settled for a slower machine in order to get a Linux system when i could have bought a faster Windows machine, after rebates at least, for the same money), that the alarms did not sound.

Finally, while I am not a programmer, I am not all that new to computers or to Linux. I've used computers for nearly 15-years and have had nothing but Linux on my home machine for more than two years.

I feel like there is more I want or need to say, but I already feel like I'm in the position of having to defend myself or my purchase, and I'm too tired to do any more of either one.

To Bruce B: I wasn't really offended by your post. It's just that I've read similar sentiments before and for some reason it finally struck a nerve. It's just that I see little things like this as being impediments to an even wider acceptance of Linux as a viable alternative to Microsoft. While not everyone cares if this happens or even wants it to happen, I think it is important to have alternatives to Windows if for not other reason than the fact that one company should not be able to dictate what computers can and cannot do or how they should or should not look and operate. I don't see Apple as that alternative because of price. Price is one reason why I see Linux as the one viable alternative. So I occasionally get a little upset when there is something that seems unnecessary (to a non-programmer, simply a user) getting in the way of Linux fulfilling its promise on a wider scale as that alternative. In this case, it may have seemed that I was trying to shoot the messenger :) , for which I apologize.
Walt

Now that you point it out to me, the answer seems painfully obvious.

Guest

#19 Post by Guest »

To me Linux is like a high performance motor vehicle, it is usable by most people with some amount of skill, but, to get the most out of it you need to learn how it works, you need to listen you need to feel to take it to the next level.

Actually I reckon what I said wasn't an over simplification...It's just the way it is.

I could have sugar coated it but what's the point it would be the same message, if I was more diplomatic would have been easier to swallow ?

15 years.....Surely you should have known to do more research........

But Walt settle down dude....we all make mistakes or get duped and for what it's worth it's only a modem nothing really to cry over.

And having worked with EFTPOS terminals on a component level I can you it ain't pretty when a spike goes through.....I feel an EXTERNAL modem provides a nice bit of physical isolation......
Remember kiddies once the smoke escapes nothing works afterwards.

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danleff
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#20 Post by danleff »

So, this machine was built on a Xandros platform. Same thing as a system being built on a windows platform.

I probably would have had some fun with the salesperson and asked if it would run any distro of Linux. Most likely the uninformed salesperson would have said yes. If you asked if the modem was a hard modem, the person probably would have not known.

Otherwise you bought a system that worked out of the box as it was designed to do.

Unfortunate, but that's why one must do the research. Sorry for your troubles.
I love it when a plan comes together

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