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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Bionicpup64 shutdown takes 10 Minutes?! Really?
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cattledog


Joined: 08 Sep 2019
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2019, 19:11    Post subject:  Bionicpup64 shutdown takes 10 Minutes?! Really?  

I’ve been running bionicpup64 off a USB drive for a few months and am noticing my computer takes a surprisingly long time to shut down: almost 10 minutes. I believe this is because the OS is saving to pupsave, but I thought I’d ask here in case there’s anything I can do to decrease shutdown time. (The default auto-save every 30 minutes via Puppy Event Manager was causing my computer to crawl during those sporadic saves, so I opted not to save at all till shutdown.) Please advise. Thanks.
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 5821
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2019, 19:47    Post subject:  

@ cattledog:-

Sounds about right, TBH. If you're saving the entire session, all at one go, to a USB 2.0 stick, then it can easily take several minutes. Especially running Bionicpup64 8.0, which is the largest, heaviest, most complex Puppy ever released. Depending on the age/hardware/specs of your computer, some of the newest Pups are getting to be a bit too much for the real 'veterans' out there.

You can speed things up by putting your save on a USB 3.0 stick. Even if your box doesn't have USB 3.0 ports, a USB 3.0 stick achieves significantly higher throughput via a USB 2.0 port than a USB 2.0 stick can.....and that's from experience, 'cos I've been using large capacity USB 3.0 flash drives as permanent 'external' storage in a 2002 Dell Inspiron for years.....

(This veteran was also one of the very first to market using the then-new USB 2.0 standard, all those years ago. Again, fact, since we've had it from new... Very Happy)

--------------------------

You'd notice quite a big improvement if you were to place your 'pupsave' on the hard drive instead....


Mike. Wink

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Last edited by Mike Walsh on Thu 05 Dec 2019, 20:26; edited 2 times in total
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 14724
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2019, 19:56    Post subject:  

Hi cattledog.

I have noticed that Puppy shut-down time is correlated to how long the session was.
If I leave my Puppy computer on for a week, a shut-down time of 5 minutes is not
uncommon. If I shutdown after a few hours only, the shutdown is performed almost
instantly, This on jrb's upupbb32 booted from HD.

You say your session lasted a few months: IMO, that would explain it.

If you absolutely need a snappy shutdown,
-- make sure there are no apps running (such as Abiword, music player, or browser, etc.);
-- click on the Save button, if you are set up on USB or Flash card or DVD, and wait til the save is done;
-- open a console;
-- and then type
Code:
busybox poweroff
--> Please note that this forced shutdown,
while not risky in itself, may not save all system data (such as the logs).

IHTH

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LNSmith


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 80
Location: Lake Macquarie, NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2019, 22:21    Post subject: Putting pupsave file on USB (flash) thumb drive.
Subject description: Shutdown takes 10 minutes?
 

G'day all.

I confirm the general consensus that writing the pup-save file to a thumb drive gives poor performance. I boot from a thumb-drive and I save to the same thumb drive. Don't do that!!

When I save to a rotating hard drive the system shuts down quickly.
When I use my present config. (pupSave -> thumb) shutdown takes (maybe) 90 seconds.
Have NOT noticed that a long session => long shutdown time.

Leslie.

(1) OS = 32 bit uPupBB running on a P4. 2GB RAM. CPU = P4 from about 2005/06. Works well (mostly).
(2) Am reading about how to move PupSave to HDD.
Many postings here say: easy-peasy
Other postings here say: did that. Had problems.
I don't want problems!
TTFN.
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cattledog


Joined: 08 Sep 2019
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2019, 01:27    Post subject:  

Thanks, all. @musher0, I meant I’ve had bionicpup64 on a frugal install for a couple months, not that my session has been that long. My sessions are usually about four hours, but Puppy is installed on a 2.0 USB (as Mike divined) and about 6gb of the 16gb drive is the OS, plus various programs and files. I installed bionicpup32 on another USB 2.0 for my roommate (both our comps are 10+ years old) and the shutdown on his is about 5 minutes, but again, that’s saving to pupsave on same flash drive, not spinning HDD. Will live with the long shutdown for now. Just wanted to reach out to see how common this was and see if I was missing some trick to cut the shutdown time. Thanks, again.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 13197
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2019, 01:49    Post subject:  

If you are running a browser for a long time there is all kinds of files they store away.
Take a look at the browser preferences and see how you have history, cache, cookies, etc....... setup for possible saving.
If set to keep any of this stuff, it will go into the save.
I set this stuff to all clear out when the browser is closed.

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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3252
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2019, 03:50    Post subject:  

cattledog wrote:
Thanks, all. @musher0, I meant I’ve had bionicpup64 on a frugal install for a couple months, not that my session has been that long. My sessions are usually about four hours, but Puppy is installed on a 2.0 USB (as Mike divined) and about 6gb of the 16gb drive is the OS, plus various programs and files. I installed bionicpup32 on another USB 2.0 for my roommate (both our comps are 10+ years old) and the shutdown on his is about 5 minutes, but again, that’s saving to pupsave on same flash drive, not spinning HDD. Will live with the long shutdown for now. Just wanted to reach out to see how common this was and see if I was missing some trick to cut the shutdown time. Thanks, again.

There are many viable options. How is the usbdrive formatted (partitions and filesystem) and how big is the savefile currently?

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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 5821
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2019, 07:25    Post subject:  

@ Les:-

LNSmith wrote:
(2) Am reading about how to move PupSave to HDD.
Many postings here say: easy-peasy
Other postings here say: did that. Had problems.
I don't want problems!


I confess, that's one thing I don't understand. I've been copying/moving/transferring pupsaves for years.....and have yet to experience any problems of any sort.

I briefly flirted with the save-folders when they first made an appearance, but I've since reverted everything in the kennels to save-files. Save-files might have the 'fixed size' issue, but as it's a single, large, compressed file (until you open it), they are so much faster for performing backups. The save-folder has to copy every single, individual item, one at a time.....and when you have as much stuff installed as I do, that can take a long time.

(Nic has previously admitted that the size of the save-files I use gives him a heart-attack!! Laughing) But the set-up works for me.


Mike. Wink

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tommy

Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 125
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2019, 07:34    Post subject:  

Correct me if I'm wrong:
cattledog, you have a 6GB Puppy OS, does it mean you have a 6GB pupsave__or_bionicsave_or_whatever_is_called_.2fs?

If so, writing a 6GB file to a USB 2.0 thumb drive takes normally .... 10 minutes!!! Nothing wrong or weird. Have you ever tried to write a 6GB movie to a thumb drive? It takes more or less the same time. A SSD or spinning USB hard drive should be a little faster. USB3.0 could be another solution as Mike Walsh suggested but your PC is 10 years old and I imagine it doesn't have such technology.

Writing to a real internal SATA/IDE hard disc is WAYS faster.

If you have a working internal hard disk, use it as saving drive.

I think that if you simply copy your pupsave_XXYY_.2fs file to a hard disc root folder, the initial initrd script should find it and use it (but the pupsave_XXYY.2fs file on USB thumb drive should then be renamed .2fs.OLD or removed before). You can't remove or rename from USB thumb drive the pupsave_XXX.2fs file while it's in use, so use another PC or boot Bionicpup with pfix=ram kernel boot option. Before doing anything make backups of savefile to be safe!!. Obviously doing so makes your Bionicpup not portable anymore, as savefile will be inside your PC hard disc.

As a side note, my pupsave_etcetera.2fs file is normally only 768 MB, I save everything OUTSIDE my /root/ folder, I create a DATA folder on USB thumb drive where I put files, downloads, portable apps and I load from there the .sfs applications instead of installing .pet packages, if possible. At shutdown the saving process takes about 1 minute.
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3252
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2019, 10:42    Post subject:  

Mike Walsh wrote:
@ Les:-

LNSmith wrote:
(2) Am reading about how to move PupSave to HDD.
Many postings here say: easy-peasy
Other postings here say: did that. Had problems.
I don't want problems!


I confess, that's one thing I don't understand. I've been copying/moving/transferring pupsaves for years.....and have yet to experience any problems of any sort.

I briefly flirted with the save-folders when they first made an appearance, but I've since reverted everything in the kennels to save-files. Save-files might have the 'fixed size' issue, but as it's a single, large, compressed file (until you open it), they are so much faster for performing backups. The save-folder has to copy every single, individual item, one at a time.....and when you have as much stuff installed as I do, that can take a long time.

(Nic has previously admitted that the size of the save-files I use gives him a heart-attack!! Laughing) But the set-up works for me.


Mike. Wink

Savefiles are not compressed.

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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 1441

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2019, 13:48    Post subject:  

Looking at how Debian Dog handles this might help this issue.

In Puppy, when you press the save button or the periodic save runs (i.e. run save2flash) in Pupmode 13, it saves all the changes in that session from memory to the savefile/folder, but it doesn't flush any of those changes out of memory. So your changes build up throughout the session and when you exit, every single change from the whole session has to be saved from memory to disk.

In Debian Dog Porteus Boot, it is the opposite. When you run save2flash in the equivalent of pupmode 13, most of the changes are flushed from memory so you only have to wait for a change to be saved one time.

I just ran save2flash and it said "Session data to save 57 megabytes" and then immediately ran it again and it said "Session data to save 2.6 megabytes".

Incorporating this into Puppy would be a pretty big basic technological improvement and would spread out the pain of waiting for stuff to save to a slow usb drive.
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3252
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2019, 15:18    Post subject:  

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cattledog


Joined: 08 Sep 2019
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2019, 16:04    Post subject:  

@nic007 : ext4 file system and only one partition

@tommy : when I frugally installed bionicpup64 on my 16GB USB, someone recommended I go with saving to a folder, rather than a file. I have a bionicpupsave folder that is 1.7 GB. (Not 6 GB, but perhaps that explains the long shutdown, depending on if many of the enclosed files are being modified?)
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3252
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Sat 07 Dec 2019, 02:59    Post subject:  

I dislike a big savefile and savefolder in general. This is what I will do:
- Get rid of your current big savefile/folder by converting it to a ydrv, see here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=117254
- Then operate with a small savefile (say 100MB). Here are a few tips to keep it small: do not install stuff but rather load sfs-addons instead; do not save personal files to the running puppyfilesystem, save it outside; move potentially large space occupiers like browser caches out of the running puppyfilesystem.
- Note that you can have total control in terms of when savings are done by selecting the time interval in Puppy Event Manager (under system in the menu) and you can also select whether you want to have a choice to save or not at reboot/shutdown. I recommend setting the time interval to zero in which case no saves wil be done automatically during a session. You can manually do a save by clicking on the save icon.

PS: Personally, I don't use a savefile at all. I only save small system configuration changes to an adrv (my adrv with changes is about 2MB) and then I operate according to the "principles" as mentioned above.

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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 5821
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Sat 07 Dec 2019, 07:16    Post subject:  

@ nic007:-

nic007 wrote:
Savefiles are not compressed.


OK; fair enough..! So can you explain to me why a save-file seems to 'save/copy/transfer' SO much faster than a save-folder? It's something I've always been curious about, I must confess. Smile


Mike. Wink

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