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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Properly setup BionicPup64 (or another puppy)
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 13801
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2020, 12:25    Post subject:  

Quote:
PS: I will also need to test gyro's MOK utility since the "secure boot" will have to be on on the new HP win10 laptops

If you have any problem with it.
Report on the Frugalpup Installer topic.
Gyro needs the information, good or bad.

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3826
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2020, 17:36    Post subject:  

"I am part of a team (20 people as I write"... "have the possibility to boot our machines from a different media than the HD"... "I need to restructure the final USB stick for distribution...."

For distribution, about which Menu>Setup>Puppy Packagemanager> clonezilla. Seems to run. Untested.

Info about Clonezilla: https://clonezilla.org/
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UncleScrooge


Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 78
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2020, 02:50    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:

Did you do the last step?
4. Download 'bionicupdate' and copy it to '/usr/local/quickpet/'.

Like I said this is a work around.

But, now you know how to make a pet package from a sfs package.


yes I did. and made sure to overwrite the scripts in /usr/local/quickpet/
still did not work. But as in my previous post turning the sfs into pet as you suggested, did it!

the frugalpup tools are perfect (v20 in bionicpup 64 8.0 !!!).
I already made another bootable both UEFI/MBR USB with a reordered version of the original structure.

If you see from one of my first posts I still had 500 MB unallocated in the 32 GB.

I repartitioned and formatted a fresh new USB 32GB thumbrive this way:

150 MB fat32
25 GB f2fs (I haven't tried with other formats... yet)
2 GB Linux swap (my paranoia apparently infected our ITs...)
4 GB ntfs (intended spooler for windows)

and then used frugalpup_20 to install bionicpup64: worked like a charm. Boots flawlessly both UEFI and MBR mode.

The only problem is that bloody windows sees only partition number 1 (fat32) and not the intended partition 4 (ntfs, it could actually be any other windows readable partition)

is there a way to have windows seeing anything else than the 1st partition?

I'd rather not have the full thumbdrive in fat32 if I can help it.

An alternative could be to have partition 1 (fat32) at 4+ GB (and get rid of partition 4) but then I need to make the boot section (grub2, etc) hidden and/or read only to avoid sure "overwrites" by some of my "tweaker" field engineers colleagues. Is there a way to do that (and still having the machine firmware booting bionicpup correctly)?
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UncleScrooge


Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 78
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2020, 03:07    Post subject:  

mikeslr wrote:
"I am part of a team (20 people as I write"... "have the possibility to boot our machines from a different media than the HD"... "I need to restructure the final USB stick for distribution...."

For distribution, about which Menu>Setup>Puppy Packagemanager> clonezilla. Seems to run. Untested.

Info about Clonezilla: https://clonezilla.org/


Hi mike.

I'll hopefully get to that in a week or two.

Still have to test a shitload of other tools in the lab. After covid-19 emergency, remoting desktops of service laptops and stuff has jumped to number 1 priority... ironic that we (low paygrade tech sods) were pushing hard for remote srevice/access since late 2018, and were treated like a boring nuisance...

my direct boss just agreed to postpone the release of the first thumbdrives to the end of June.

so far I used "dd if=source_dev of=dest_dev" booting Ubuntu from the testing laptop HD, to back up every night the prototype USB. That seemed also an easy way to clone, although it takes almost a hour for each duplication.

EDIT: i also just dd-ied the Uefi bootable USB on a second USB drive and then tested the clone: all ok! it boots UEFI or MBR mode no probs. So the final "cloning" process should go smooth either way I choose to do it.

Last edited by UncleScrooge on Fri 22 May 2020, 05:14; edited 1 time in total
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UncleScrooge


Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 78
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2020, 04:25    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
Quote:
PS: I will also need to test gyro's MOK utility since the "secure boot" will have to be on on the new HP win10 laptops

If you have any problem with it.
Report on the Frugalpup Installer topic.
Gyro needs the information, good or bad.


will certainly do
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 13801
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2020, 06:59    Post subject:  

Windows 10 is picky about other OS's doing stuff to drives.

Quote:
it's conceivable that the NTFS partition you created in Linux has the wrong partition type code. You can view the type codes using the Linux fdisk command, as in:
Code:
fdisk -l /dev/sda

sda --> change to whatever the drive is identified as. (sdb, sdc ,sdd, etc...)
An NTFS partition should have a type code of 07 under the Id column in fdisk's output. If it doesn't have that code, you can change it with fdisk; type fdisk /dev/sda, then use the t option to change the type code and w to save your changes.


Could just try formatting the partition to ntfs using programs in Windows 10.
Do not make partitions with Windows 10.

Wonder if Windows 10 would see the partition as fat32. Idea

Maybe make the second partition ntfs
Third partition f2fs
Fourth partition Linux swap.
.

_________________
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
YaPI(any iso installer)
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3826
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2020, 09:40    Post subject:  

just a couple of thoughts. You might want to check with jafadmin* about the strength of the LUKS encryption offered by Puppies when creating creating an encrypted SaveFile on "first" shutdown. When that option was first included it offered three versions only the last of which could not be easily circumvented. I'm not certain when, or IF, that system was changed.

If no where else, jafadmin can be found via his email at the bottom of this post which is well worth reading, http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1051056#1051056

Alternatives for keeping data safe: veracrypt can be installed and works well.

And about partitions. Won't stop a dedicated hacker. But, Windows does not natively read Linux partitiions. A program to do so can be installed. But, if not installed Windows readable (Fat, Fat32, ntfs, etc.] partitions following a Linux formatted partition on a USB-Key won't even be seen. So, if you want a dedicated partition for transferring files via a USB-port, it has to be before any Linux partitions.

As you know, Puppies run as root/Administrator. Puppies can run Web-browsers (and other applications) as Spot. According to its protocol, Spot is supposed to be a Limited User having its own folder and without permission to access any other folder. Hence, Mike Walsh when he built the Google-Chrome SFS included a module for transferring files out-of Spot and changing permissions, http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1040736#1040736. My exploration revealed that only firefox and the Google-Chrome from that thread actually honored the Spot's folder restriction: every other web-browser could read-from and write to any location. I have not tested ozsouth's builds of Google-Chrome.

The 78 version of GC can be manually updated, http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1056295#1056295
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vtpup


Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1415
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2020, 14:05    Post subject:  

yep, I think win will see the ntfs partition if you make it follow your first fat32. (ie make it the second partition.)

ps also recently used clonezilla to replace the old HD with a new larger drive on my laptop. It faithfully imaged the system, lock stock, and barrel, errr...win7, multiple pups, and other junk, and restored it perfectly on the new drive.

I actually also used one partition of that image as a restore backup, when I made a dumb experimental mistake a week later, messing up my desktop. Clonezilla worked well for me....

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UncleScrooge


Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 78
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sat 23 May 2020, 02:35    Post subject:  

mikeslr wrote:
just a couple of thoughts. You might want to check with jafadmin* about the strength of the LUKS encryption offered by Puppies when creating creating an encrypted SaveFile on "first" shutdown. When that option was first included it offered three versions only the last of which could not be easily circumvented. I'm not certain when, or IF, that system was changed.

If no where else, jafadmin can be found via his email at the bottom of this post which is well worth reading, http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1051056#1051056


done.
thank you
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UncleScrooge


Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 78
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sat 23 May 2020, 09:50    Post subject:  

ras wrote:
Quote:
As it comes, all our new generations of controllers are running on linux (no sh**t... again...), so we found ourselves in a bit of a quandary.



Do you have specific Linux apps you need to run, and do they run well in the chosen Puppy?


yes most of them adapted from windows (xp and 7), and so far so good (apart from the danfoss stuff, but we should hopefully get a compile of those in linux under the right kernel).

other applications are all linux natives, the devs are still using an old debian distro
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UncleScrooge


Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 78
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sat 23 May 2020, 09:52    Post subject:  

deleted as not relevant anymore
Last edited by UncleScrooge on Sun 24 May 2020, 09:17; edited 1 time in total
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UncleScrooge


Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 78
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sun 24 May 2020, 08:01    Post subject:  

AAARGGHHH!!!
Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
all the above plan went tits up this morning, when with my utost dismal the bloody thumbdrive wasn't booting anymore.

As soon as I touched the FAT32 partition with anything else than the grub files (the FAT32 was 4GB and I copied some files from windows into a freshly made directory) all went south.

My first reaction was to smash the laptop and all the rest of the paraphernalia into pieces.

then I had a cup of tea, chilled down and started mulling over some plan B.

Last edited by UncleScrooge on Sun 24 May 2020, 09:21; edited 2 times in total
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UncleScrooge


Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 78
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sun 24 May 2020, 09:06    Post subject:  

So I am writing this also to keep a record of the solution I tink I found and that is working so far.

thanks to the following topics:

FrugalPup_20 by gyro

Ubuntu 20 UEFI/BIOS full install on a USB flashdrive

and thanks to the community members who helped here and in pm with suggestions and comments.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Just as a summary: my final goal was to have a UEFI/MBR bootable thumbdrive which must also spare some space for tranferring files and stuff to/from windows. Windows apparently has problems (at least the two versions I am working with, 7 and 10) to read any partition on a disk not partitioned/formatted by it, other than partition number one: even if the other partitions are in windows "friendly" format it refuses to mount it.

I needed:

  • one target usb thumbrive. Since I was starting from scratch, at this point, I went for the larger size: 64GB. This will be the final product
  • one "dummy" thumbrive of any size to force FrugalPup_20 to save there the grub files


here are the steps:

  1. in GParted delete all partitions on the target drive
  2. create a new gpt partition table for the target drive. this is important in order to wipe out any previous setting and allowing GParted to create more than 4 partitions
  3. at the far right of the target drive create a 8 GB NTFS (could also be FAT32 or any other format readable by windows). This is partition number 1, critical to allow windows to use it
  4. at the far left of the drive create a 1 MB "unformatted" partition (Partition number 2)
  5. immediately after create a 150/300 MB FAT32 partition. This is partition number 3 and it will contain the grub files and directories.
  6. create the partition that will actually host bionicpup and have the encrypted savefile: 45 GB. Partition number 4
  7. this would be optional if I were sure the thumbdrive will always be used on state of the art machine, but since I am not: partition number 5 linux-swap, 4 GB.
  8. when applying changes Gparted will automatically format partition 2 to FAT32. No probs, reselect the partition (number 2) and format as "unformatted"
  9. flag partition number 2 as bios_grub and partition number 3 as boot,esp

this is the result:


before starting FrugalPup_20, have the "dummy" usb plugged in. as said this usb drive must have partition number 1 formatted as FAT32 to force FrugalPup_20 to save the grub files there, since it won't save them to partition 3 of the target. Format the FAT32 partition to make it sure I start with a wipe clean location.

now with FrugalPup_20


  1. install the puppy files to partition 4 of the target.
  2. install the boot files choosing the "both" (UEFI and MBR booting mode) option to partition number 1 of the "dummy" usb drive
  3. once FrugalPup_20 has finished, copy all the files and directories from partition 1 of the "dummy" to partition 3 (FAT32 flagged boot,esp) of the target.


that's it. Now my target boots UEFI/MBR and windows has no problem reading the NTFS partition (sdb1 in the picture above). as additional benefit windows now does not mount/show partition 3 (the booting partition) even if it's FAT32, preventing any accidental "corruption" of the booting part of the disk.

PS I will test the MOK utility by gyro this week. I hope it works although I am little worried that the trcik I used by copying the grub files from one USB to another will prevent MOK from working correctly.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 13801
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sun 24 May 2020, 10:37    Post subject:  

I am having a hard time understanding why this setup does not work for you. Confused
Works for me.

I did this all using Gparted in Puppy Linux.

Note:
The fat32 and ntfs partitions are before the ext4 and Linux swap.

Windows 10 requires Windows 10 to be on a gpt partitioned drive. That is for Windows 10 not for Linux. Linux works on msdos partition table drives or gpt partitioned drives.
In fact, Puppy Linux has always been coded for msdos partition table drives.

The big problem with reading this drive in Windows 10 file explorer.
It will show all the partitions.
Only the fat32 and ntfs one will actually access.
The ext4 and swap, will pop up with message, they need formatted.
But, what drive letter is it going to use for them. Figuring out that, can be confusing.
For me, it was showing fat32 as usb drive (H)
ntfs was usb drive (I)
The other two where usb drive (J) and (K)

The Windows 10 file explorer, can use any identity it wants to and sometimes, it may use totally different ones.
It kind of depends on what order the drives get loaded into the system.
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_________________
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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UncleScrooge


Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 78
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sun 24 May 2020, 15:07    Post subject:  

@ bigpup

I don't get it either. still on our laptops (both windows 10 and 7 -we will still have laptops with windows 7 until first quarter 2021). windows explorer is not showing anything other than partition 1 IF it's in a windows friendly format.

The only explanation I got is that there may be some restrain: we are not administrators on our laptop, just users, and a lot of features in the "computer management" are disabled. In case of need we have an utilitycalled TempUser which creates a temporary user (3 hours) with administrative privileges.

we can't even delete shortcuts from the desktop, let alone access the Program folders or the root of C:\. No access to diskpart and other core windows unilities. Only as temporary administrators.
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