Partitioning; cloning Puppy,

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Germanpup
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Partitioning; cloning Puppy,

#1 Post by Germanpup »

I failed to install 1.0.4 as well as 1.0.3 type 2 install on a P1 166 MHZ w/ 40 MB RAM, although I ad the partitions hda1 1,5 GB linux native and hda2 128 MB linux swap set up beforehand. this very machine is now running DSL 1.4 without probs. Any clues? Do I have to bypass the Ramdisk which is apparently too small? What am I doing wrong? Any help appreciated to wake up another unwakable ;-)
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Re: Failure notice 1.0.4 (and 1.0.3) on P1 166 MHz w/ 40 MB

#2 Post by Bruce B »

Germanpup wrote:I failed to install 1.0.4 as well as 1.0.3 type 2 install on a P1 166 MHZ w/ 40 MB RAM, although I ad the partitions hda1 1,5 GB linux native and hda2 128 MB linux swap set up beforehand. this very machine is now running DSL 1.4 without probs. Any clues? Do I have to bypass the Ramdisk which is apparently too small? What am I doing wrong? Any help appreciated to wake up another unwakable ;-)
You say it failed to install a type 2? In order to get to the point where you were ready to install a type 2, this indicates to me that Puppy booted successfully and was running. Is this correct?

You didn't state with any specificity what happens when you run the hd installation script. What happens?

What do you mean by the Ramdisk being too small and bypassing it?

If I can learn more I'll try and speculate some good answers for you.

raffy
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common problems

#3 Post by raffy »

Here are solutions to common problems:

1. Press 2 (v.1.03) or 3 (v.1.04) at boot-time so puppy will not use your pre-existing partitions. If asked later about what home partition to use, press ENTER (no partition identified).

2. In console, manually format your swap partition "mkswap /dev/hda2" and turn it on "swapon /dev/hda2", then reboot the Puppy CD so you will have more memory the next time Puppy loads, and the entire usr_cram.fs will be loaded to memory. This will allow you to eject/reinsert the CD (as the install script expects you to do that - see below).

***If you did (2), this may not happen anymore: When the install script asks for the Puppy CD, it may want to eject the CD first, but you can't do that because of insufficient memory. Check the "install-hd2.sh" near the "ripfromcd" command about this possible problem. (The "ripfromcd" function itself is in "installfuncs" script.) remove any such line about ejecting the CD. (You may have to copy the scripts to /tmp to change them.)***

See the link below for more discussion and comments. Good luck.
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Germanpup
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#4 Post by Germanpup »

thanks guys. yes, I wasn't even able to boot the cd, so I never got to the point of starting a type 2 install ...
thought puppy would use the swap partition hda2 automatically in case it exists and RAM's too low ...
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Ian
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#5 Post by Ian »

Did you use the md5sum to verify your downloads before burning the ISOs to CD.

Bruce B

#6 Post by Bruce B »

Germanpup wrote:thanks guys. yes, I wasn't even able to boot the cd, so I never got to the point of starting a type 2 install ...
thought puppy would use the swap partition hda2 automatically in case it exists and RAM's too low ...
You thought right. Puppy should recognize and use swap the partition automatically. This is irrregardless of amount of RAM you have.

I've observed Puppy's behavior as follows:

It automatically uses the swap partition on a boot from CD-ROM and an Option 1 HD install.

It needs to be told to use the swap partition after you made the Option 2 install. And it needs to be told every time you boot. You generally do this by putting the command in /etc/rc.d/rc.local

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#7 Post by Germanpup »

thanks again guys. the md5 were alright as i used these same cds successfully on other machines. bruce, i wasn't even able to boot from the cd ...
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#8 Post by Germanpup »

maybe i wasn't clear. i couldn't even boot the cd due what i thought of lack of RAM so i figured there might be a way to do a type 2 install without booting up the whole system.
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#9 Post by Bruce B »

There is a way (in the possible future) to make an option 2 install without a bootable cdrom, without a cdrom and for that matter without puppy.

I've been working on this on and off for some days now. The problems I have has to do with working out documentation for others and distribution.

The documentation is the hardest part because I have to figure the person reading may not know much about computers. Truthfully, documentation is overwhelming for me, although the procedure is straight forward and easy for those adept and partitioning drives and working in DOS.

Here's a sketch of how it works.

I install Puppy on a 1gb ext2 partition. I make a compressed image of that partition using DOS based free software called savepart.

The size of the image is about 80 MB

Using SAVEPART and working in DOS this image file can then be installed on an existing partition of between about 150MB and 1GB in size

You use grub for dos to boot it and there you have it.

The entire install is done in DOS and is very fast and doesn't requre much RAM or processor power.

The chances are I will not complete the project because it would involve so many step-by-step instructions for the novice.

It might be feasible to make it availabe for those who know what they are doing and I can simply outline what to do, rather than explain it all in detail.

------------

Anyway, I understand a your situation a little better. I don't know why the CD-ROM disk doesn't boot. But, I will say that I've seen a lot more complaints of this nature with RW disks as opposed to write once disks.

raffy
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willing

#10 Post by raffy »

I can take on that job, Bruce, just post the process and the file somewhere.

Germanpup, as Bruce said, a CD start uses the swap partition automatically, so you can in fact load the Puppy from CD. What may be preventing you is the CD drive. Old CD drives may not be able to read newly burned CDs, esp CD-RWs - try a slowly-burned CD-R, say 2X or 4X.
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wscarl
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IF you can boot form the CD- for a low memory install

#11 Post by wscarl »

IF you can boot form the CD- for a low memory install try this
use two puppy cd's in to cd drive's for HD install
Note: Some older cd/DVD drive just don't read newer CD or DVD media

Bruce B

#12 Post by Bruce B »

Thanks raffy.

I already sort of started this potential project discussion over here.

http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?t=1737

I'll try and post a fairly complete follow up over there. I already owe sirexel a follow up. When? As as is reasonably possible.

If just finished testing two emulators in Puppy. Sort of a trip running Linux inside Puppy, but it can be done. :)

I think I'll post the reviews on the emulators in the additional software section, prior to responding in detail on the disk image discussion.

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#13 Post by Germanpup »

Bruce, that's interesting. I would too like to participate in that kind of work! The only thing that bugs me is the DOS workaround. Wouldn't it be easier to "backup" the whole puppy filesystem (may it reside in Ramdisk, pup001-Files or wherever) to an image then "restore" it to any ext2 or ext3 or whatever linux partition? In case you still want / have to use DOS why not integrate it into the bootdisk generated by puppy install? Should be enough space on it ...
anyhow I'm wondering if this could also be achieved using linux onboard tools maybe from within puppy ... do you see a way I could get a hold of this image file of yours?
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#14 Post by Bruce B »

Germanpup wrote:Bruce, that's interesting. I would too like to participate in that kind of work! The only thing that bugs me is the DOS workaround. Wouldn't it be easier to "backup" the whole puppy filesystem (may it reside in Ramdisk, pup001-Files or wherever) to an image then "restore" it to any ext2 or ext3 or whatever linux partition? In case you still want / have to use DOS why not integrate it into the bootdisk generated by puppy install? Should be enough space on it ...
anyhow I'm wondering if this could also be achieved using linux onboard tools maybe from within puppy ... do you see a way I could get a hold of this image file of yours?
SAVEPART is DOS based, free and very good, therfore the need for DOS. It there is no DOS, SAVEPART can be put on a DOS bootable floppy and run from there. The main idea is here the software - not the OS.

Almost all low end and low ram computers can boot DOS and run SAVEPART. If you don't have DOS, it can be run from a DOS bootable floppy. If you don't have a floppy it can be run from a DOS bootable CD-ROM. If you don't have a floppy or a bootable CD-DRIVE, it can be run from DOS off the hardrive.

SAVEPART saves and restores partitions (among other things). In Puppy Option 2 the entire filesystem resides on a partiton. So you do save the entire filesystem by saving the partition.

As far as filesystem choice. Puppy formats an ext2 prior to the Option 2 install. I don't know if we have choice.

The problem is, after making the Puppy partition with SAVEPART the MBR does not necessarily have the GRUB or any other bootloader program except for the default of what was there. You probably won't be able to boot Puppy without a program designed for the job. You need something to boot it and that is where GRUB for DOS makes it easy.

Once booted, Puppy can be used to install GRUB on the MBR.

You want to make and restore the entire partiton from Linux? I think System Rescue CD has provisions for this. This could be tested.

The consideration I have is this: If you can boot System Rescue CD, you could probably boot Puppy from CD. If you can boot Puppy successfully, then use its hard drive installation program.

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#15 Post by Germanpup »

just checked out savepart, looks promising. Along come other tools as diskinfo, fileinfo and partinfo which all would fit easily on the DOS-based puppy bootdisk. Fine so far. Let's say you had an image of puppy on CDROM and that kind of bootdisk (modified with a menue of course for install purposes, that's the easy part) then the question remains how would you create an ext2 and a linux swap partition from DOS? Maybe it'll be necessary to create a minimalist console based puppy bootdisk with just sh and fdisk? Or are there any tools out there to create linux partitions from DOS? Anyway I'm eager to get that going. Another point of course is: if you can't boot the puppy cd how will you be able to create the image that savepart is going to use? As far as we got from here you would still need a running puppy type 2 install as well as at least the puppy cd and a cd writer in order to create that image. I have the slight feeling that a script to produce such an image from a(ny) puppy cd couldn't be that hard as all the filesystem is there ...
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#16 Post by Bruce B »

You are obviously thinking this through. Thank you.

> Just checked out savepart, looks promising. Along come other tools as diskinfo, fileinfo and partinfo which all would fit easily on the DOS-based puppy bootdisk. Fine so far.

Yeah, nice light yet powerful software and priced right also.

> Let's say you had an image of puppy on CDROM and that kind of bootdisk (modified with a menue of course for install purposes, that's the easy part)

Right not hard at all.

> then the question remains how would you create an ext2 and a linux swap partition from DOS?

I would make them with Power Quest Drive Image - but I'm wanting to work out a way to do this with free software.

You do not actually need to make an ext2 partition or linux swap partition.

You could use MS-DOS fdisk and create unformatted extended partitions of the size you wish them to be. This NOT a recommendation of messy fdisk. Just illustrating a point that it is easy to create unfomatted partitions and that's all you need.

> Savepart will format the ext 2 partition as a part of the image copy routine. All it needs is a partition.

Considering a low end low ram machine - the default would be to initially boot Linux but not the X for the first runs - this only takes about 8 MB RAM. Run cfdisk and format the swap partition, then edit rc.local and tell it to use the swap partition.

At this point the low end machine is ready to run X

> Maybe it'll be necessary to create a minimalist console based puppy bootdisk with just sh and fdisk? Or are there any tools out there to create linux partitions from DOS?

Yes the free AEFDISK can make type 82 and 83 partitions, but doesn't format them.

> Anyway I'm eager to get that going. Another point of course is: if you can't boot the puppy cd how will you be able to create the image that savepart is going to use?

Good question and the answer is you don't. You download it.

> As far as we got from here you would still need a running puppy type 2 install as well as at least the puppy cd and a cd writer in order to create that image. I have the slight feeling that a script to produce such an image from a(ny) puppy cd couldn't be that hard as all the filesystem is there ...

If you can download the image to your hard disk you would not even need a cdrom. Also if you could get it to your computer via the network.

Anyway I can see that you are really thinking through the logistics of this. Very good.

I'll call my ISP and see how much disk space the allow me on my account. It's an 80 MB file.

Also, I could host it on a P2P off my own computer.

I would suggest as the next step see if we can discover a free DOS disk partitioner for resizing and manipulating partitons. The only one I know of PQDI and it is not free.

Aefdisk is excellent, but will not resize a partition. Linux based System Rescue Disk can do this, it can handle all partition needs, even the formatting.

I think if you computer can use SRD that would be a good solution for the partitioning and resizing.

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#17 Post by Germanpup »

thanks Bruce. Meantime I got savepart as well as partinfo, diskinfo and fileinfo onto the original puppy bootdisk (the one generated by HD-setup), renamed autoexec.bat into linux.bat. Well I also got fdisk on it.
next step would be of course to implement a cdrom driver which should be fairly easy as well. (just downloading the latest freedos release ;-)
This is still assuming an image on a CDROM (from another computer of course) as i figure the low-end pc will neither have a CD recorder nor internet access.
So we could make /dev/hda1 and /dev/hda2 DOS extended using fdisk.
Then we could install the image using savepart. Fine so far. If the image were set not to boot into X but console, we could format and activate the swap partition from there, reboot (?) and go into X.
Back to the image itself. It kind of bugs me that one would first need to do a type 2 install on another PC to create the image. There must be a way to create such an image from a type1 install or even the original cdrom ...
then how about the boot sector? i don't think that's included in a partition backup ...
wouldn't it be easier after all to remaster the original CDROM to go directly into a type 2 install maybe with a menu "CD start / HD-install" before going into X?
BTW I think i know what i did wrong trying to install puppy on that old machine. I did create a swap partition (from DSL) but I didn't activate it ... otherwise the CD would probably have booted up. If that were so, one would only need a floppy based linux such as HAL91
http://chris.silmor.de/hal91/
to set up the partitions and you're there. Unfortunately I don't have that old machine here right now, but I'll try that ...
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#18 Post by Flash »

Germanpup wrote:....then how about the boot sector? i don't think that's included in a partition backup...
I'm not familiar with any of the programs you mention, but I have used NTI's Drive Backup! 3. It copies everything including the first sector of the hard drive. I would expect other partition cloning programs to do the same.

Would this be any help?

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#19 Post by Germanpup »

thanks Flash. What we're trying to do is to install puppy on a PC that won't boot the CD due to a lack of RAM. Bruce has proven he will run on 32 MB, probably less. A possible way to achieve this might be backupping an already (type 2) installed puppy (the whole ext2 partition) and copy it across to the low end PC ...

wake the unwakable !!!
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#20 Post by Flash »

O'Reilly's Linux Cookbook by Carla Schroder; chapter 16, "Backup and Recovery," page 298: 16.17 Using Mondo Rescue to Clone Linux Systems.

O'Reilly website.

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