I have on old Dell Dimension L700CXE (upgraded to 1 ghz Celeron), 384 MB RAM, on which I have been playing with a few Linux distros. The system has onboard i810 graphics, but I have it disabled in the BIOS and am running with a 32 MB ATI Rage 128 PCI card. Everytime I try to run a Live CD, even though the PCI card is being used, Linux seems to try to run the i810 drivers, which causes problems of course.
I was able to get PCLinuxOS to work, both on Live CD and installed, but I am having a heck of a time getting other distros (including Puppy) to work. I have only tried as a live CD so far with Puppy.
Will this video card support the Xorg desktop?
Xvesa works OK. Once i boot there, how do I make sure that the right drivers are running for the ATI card? Then can I switch to Xorg? Or do I need to just stick with Xvesa?
Any tips?
PK
Puppy confuses onboard graphics with ATI PCI card
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allochthonous
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Dell and Intel have been as much of a curse in this industry as you-know-who! You could have problems with i810 even if you stuck to the triumvirate cartel. That's why, if your BIOS gives an option of switching out your onboard video, I advocate running a scalpel around the pins of the offending monstrosity. Failing that, strip out the parts and use them on a clone board, which you can probably recycle from the dump. It's always worth breaking up proprietary stuff even if only to save succeeding generations from such grief. A permanent solution will have to await the destruction of capitalism.
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Sit Heel Speak
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@allochthonous: I have a Rage 128 and it supports XOrg and even 3D in Puppy. However it is an AGP card, not PCI. Might it conceivably be, that your Rage 128 like mine is in fact AGP, and in the BIOS Setup you have the default search order set to "PCI, AGP" rather than "AGP, PCI" and this is why the system is attempting to go to the onboard i810 first? Or, alternatively, if you really do have a PCI Rage and the i810 is AGP, the other way around?
@Sage: no argument from this quarter!
@Sage: no argument from this quarter!
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Bruce B
I called my brother (a high IQ geek) and asked him for help. I told him I can't make any sense out of Sage's reply from a technical perspective.
For example sage saying, "I advocate running a scalpel around the pins of the offending monstrosity."
My techniques are just the standard run of the mill stuff, like clean and reseat the boards, squish the chips, etc.
It seems to me if Linux is trying to run the onboard video when it is disabled, that it is not as disabled as it needs to be.
If it were me I'd be poking around in the BIOS setup. If that couldn't change anything, I'd try and get information on the motherboard. If that didn't work, I'd remove the graphics card and try and set it up using the onboard video and see how things work.
It might be junk, but I'd consider it stuff prior to condemning it to junk. But one thing nice about condemning hardware is you don't have to mess with it after it has been formally condemned. And like sages suggests, there's still some good stuff which can be used later.
For example sage saying, "I advocate running a scalpel around the pins of the offending monstrosity."
My techniques are just the standard run of the mill stuff, like clean and reseat the boards, squish the chips, etc.
It seems to me if Linux is trying to run the onboard video when it is disabled, that it is not as disabled as it needs to be.
If it were me I'd be poking around in the BIOS setup. If that couldn't change anything, I'd try and get information on the motherboard. If that didn't work, I'd remove the graphics card and try and set it up using the onboard video and see how things work.
It might be junk, but I'd consider it stuff prior to condemning it to junk. But one thing nice about condemning hardware is you don't have to mess with it after it has been formally condemned. And like sages suggests, there's still some good stuff which can be used later.
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allochthonous
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Sage: Interesting rant...not that I disagree. I despise anything proprietary, and Dell is the king of that.
Who are "the triumvirate cartel"?
No, I don't have this problem with Windows, and as stated earlier, I was able to figure it out with PCLinuxOS (but not Ubuntu).
Sit Heel Speak: Nope, this is a PCI card. This mobo has no AGP slot. The BIOS gives one option: Primary Video Adapter: PCI/Onboard.
Is there no place i can go into Puppy and tell it that the card in use is the ATI, not the i810?
PK
Who are "the triumvirate cartel"?
No, I don't have this problem with Windows, and as stated earlier, I was able to figure it out with PCLinuxOS (but not Ubuntu).
Sit Heel Speak: Nope, this is a PCI card. This mobo has no AGP slot. The BIOS gives one option: Primary Video Adapter: PCI/Onboard.
Is there no place i can go into Puppy and tell it that the card in use is the ATI, not the i810?
PK
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Sit Heel Speak
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I can't answer authoritatively, because mine "just works." If you surf to
http://puppyfiles.org/dotpupsde/dotpups/XServer/DRI/
and download (to any subdir, e.g. initrd/mnt/dev_save)
dri-r128.pup
DRI-Kernelmodules.pup
and
OpenGL-2.0-Ati.pup
and click on each dotpup successively in a Rox window, unpacking and installing each one, then in theory you will have installed 3D acceleration for the Rage 128. And changes will have been made in /etc/X11/xorg.conf to reflect the system's use of the Rage.
But whether doing so will force Puppy to use the Rage upon rebooting and choosing XOrg or not, that I don't know. I think it will. If it doesn't, then I would suspect the autosensing code in /usr/X11R7/bin/xwin is behaving in an unforeseen way. But debugging for your particular system is a bit beyond my skill level at present.
Anybody?
http://puppyfiles.org/dotpupsde/dotpups/XServer/DRI/
and download (to any subdir, e.g. initrd/mnt/dev_save)
dri-r128.pup
DRI-Kernelmodules.pup
and
OpenGL-2.0-Ati.pup
and click on each dotpup successively in a Rox window, unpacking and installing each one, then in theory you will have installed 3D acceleration for the Rage 128. And changes will have been made in /etc/X11/xorg.conf to reflect the system's use of the Rage.
But whether doing so will force Puppy to use the Rage upon rebooting and choosing XOrg or not, that I don't know. I think it will. If it doesn't, then I would suspect the autosensing code in /usr/X11R7/bin/xwin is behaving in an unforeseen way. But debugging for your particular system is a bit beyond my skill level at present.
Anybody?
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Sit Heel Speak
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Also, it might work to go into BIOS Setup and make sure the PCI slot the Rage is in is getting IRQ 11 explicitly assigned to it. Sometimes just INTA works, sometimes not. Maybe your mainboard is set up to give IRQ 11 to the onboard i810 unless specifically instructed via BIOS Setup to do otherwise. Oh yes, and if your BIOS Setup/PCI Setup asks you "Plug-n-Play OS?", answer No.
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Bruce B
That's why I had to call my geek brother, the guy with a high IQ. He thinks the triumvirate cartel, is a way of saying a cartel of three. I presume the cartel is MS, Intel, Dellallochthonous wrote:Sage: Interesting rant...not that I disagree. I despise anything proprietary, and Dell is the king of that.
Who are "the triumvirate cartel"?
MS, Intel, HP ??
But who am I to say? Let sage speak for himself!
On the button, as usual, Bruce! Mostly, you'll see reference to the Wintel cartel; I'd make that DWintel. But things are changing. Novell is sitting down with the devil these days, Apple is consorting with Beelzebub and Dell is to sell pre-installed Linux in the UK. Something about ice-skating?
Back on topic, most onboard graphics work for me with most distros, although i810 is a special case. Most BIOS permit onboard video to be disabled, but not all - hence the scalpel. Disconnecting the pins in this way tends be somewhat of a last resort, so I'd save this solution for proprietary boards that would otherwise be destined for destruction. On the other hand, all the boards that I've seen will use a PCI graphics card when plugged in if no other option is available.
There may be another solution? There are utilities like TweakBIOS, for example, (almost exclusively for 'doze) that can switch virtually any BIOS function, regardless of whether they are listed by default. Some of these can also save (write) changes permanently. These have to be used with exceeding caution - obviously! But they can be very helpful in adjusting those dreadful Phoenix monstosities beloved of the cartel and other box shifters.
On reflection, our amateur rock-mover tells us that his BIOS proclaims:
Primary Video Adapter: PCI/Onboard
If it's there at all, surely that's an invitation to DISABLE it by pressing PageDown? possibly better, select PCI OR Onboard?! Problem solved?
Back on topic, most onboard graphics work for me with most distros, although i810 is a special case. Most BIOS permit onboard video to be disabled, but not all - hence the scalpel. Disconnecting the pins in this way tends be somewhat of a last resort, so I'd save this solution for proprietary boards that would otherwise be destined for destruction. On the other hand, all the boards that I've seen will use a PCI graphics card when plugged in if no other option is available.
There may be another solution? There are utilities like TweakBIOS, for example, (almost exclusively for 'doze) that can switch virtually any BIOS function, regardless of whether they are listed by default. Some of these can also save (write) changes permanently. These have to be used with exceeding caution - obviously! But they can be very helpful in adjusting those dreadful Phoenix monstosities beloved of the cartel and other box shifters.
On reflection, our amateur rock-mover tells us that his BIOS proclaims:
Primary Video Adapter: PCI/Onboard
If it's there at all, surely that's an invitation to DISABLE it by pressing PageDown? possibly better, select PCI OR Onboard?! Problem solved?
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allochthonous
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri 30 Mar 2007, 00:06
As far as I can see, my only option is "PCI" OR "Onboard."
This is not an issue of the wrong graphics adapter working at the wrong time. When I disable the onboard by swtiching to "PCI," only the PCI card works. Likewise, when I enable the onboard by switching to "Onboard," only the i810 works, not the PCI card.
The issue is that apparently Linux SEES both of them and assumes that I am using the onbard i810.
The question is, how do i tell Linux to use the PCI card drivers?
PCLinuxOS has the option to "set up display" or something like that where I can choose my video card. When I go there, i810 is selected at first, and i have to go find ATI Rage 128. After I do this, everything seems to work fine. I cannot find this option in the other distros I have tried.
Sage:
re: "rock mover" - close...actually "rock that has moved"
Did you know this or did you look it up?
PK
This is not an issue of the wrong graphics adapter working at the wrong time. When I disable the onboard by swtiching to "PCI," only the PCI card works. Likewise, when I enable the onboard by switching to "Onboard," only the i810 works, not the PCI card.
The issue is that apparently Linux SEES both of them and assumes that I am using the onbard i810.
The question is, how do i tell Linux to use the PCI card drivers?
PCLinuxOS has the option to "set up display" or something like that where I can choose my video card. When I go there, i810 is selected at first, and i have to go find ATI Rage 128. After I do this, everything seems to work fine. I cannot find this option in the other distros I have tried.
Sage:
re: "rock mover" - close...actually "rock that has moved"
Did you know this or did you look it up?
PK
Confessions of a closet archaeologist - I had to check to be sure.
OK, Linux should not be permitted to see your onboard graphics chip if you've written it out in BIOS, but, as I understand it, Linux (and XP/Vista and the other NT-based 'dozes) pay less attention, if any, to BIOS settings once initial booting of the HW begins. Therefore, there will be a problem unless the distro writer has taken special precautions to scan the BIOS and review it in the light of HW found. I guess the compact distros make economies all round. This is definitely something to raise with Barry. In the meantime, visit your local hospital to avail yourself of a batch of scalps that have been pensioned off!!
OK, Linux should not be permitted to see your onboard graphics chip if you've written it out in BIOS, but, as I understand it, Linux (and XP/Vista and the other NT-based 'dozes) pay less attention, if any, to BIOS settings once initial booting of the HW begins. Therefore, there will be a problem unless the distro writer has taken special precautions to scan the BIOS and review it in the light of HW found. I guess the compact distros make economies all round. This is definitely something to raise with Barry. In the meantime, visit your local hospital to avail yourself of a batch of scalps that have been pensioned off!!
if pclinuxos works, you can try looking in the xorg.conf file in /etc/X11/ ... look at the configuration they use for:
Section "Device"
if you copy that to the xorg.conf file in Puppy, it might work ... it would probably also work for other Linx distros too
Puppy probably has several xorg.conf files in /etc/X11/ ... you should edit each one ... one of the files may be copied over the xorg.conf file when Puppy boots, which would delete your changes unless you edit both of the xorg.conf files
if X windows is not starting, you can edit the files by typing:
mp /etc/X11/xorg
then press the <tab> key a few times, to see what files are actually in /etc/X11 ... type a few more letters or the file name and press <tab> again, until it knows which file you want to edit ... make the changes to the file, then press ctrl+A for the menus (save, exit, etc etc) ... you may only need to change the drivers line to something like this:
Driver "ati" #card0driver
but you might need to change the BusID line too (or you may not need that line)
also, the driver module may not be available unless you type something like this first (once):
modprobe ati
or whatever the driver module you need ... this will copy the module from the zdrv file to the pup_save file ... if you have a full normal install, all the driver files may already be there, or not
Section "Device"
if you copy that to the xorg.conf file in Puppy, it might work ... it would probably also work for other Linx distros too
Puppy probably has several xorg.conf files in /etc/X11/ ... you should edit each one ... one of the files may be copied over the xorg.conf file when Puppy boots, which would delete your changes unless you edit both of the xorg.conf files
if X windows is not starting, you can edit the files by typing:
mp /etc/X11/xorg
then press the <tab> key a few times, to see what files are actually in /etc/X11 ... type a few more letters or the file name and press <tab> again, until it knows which file you want to edit ... make the changes to the file, then press ctrl+A for the menus (save, exit, etc etc) ... you may only need to change the drivers line to something like this:
Driver "ati" #card0driver
but you might need to change the BusID line too (or you may not need that line)
also, the driver module may not be available unless you type something like this first (once):
modprobe ati
or whatever the driver module you need ... this will copy the module from the zdrv file to the pup_save file ... if you have a full normal install, all the driver files may already be there, or not
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allochthonous
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri 30 Mar 2007, 00:06
Heh..."closet archaeologist" It's really nothing to be ashamed of.
I guess you could say that I am a geologist by degree, but not by practice.
At least I got to learn some great words, like "allochthonous" and "phenocryst" and "porphry" etc.
Anyway, back to the task at hand. You know, being a Linux newb, I have to at some point decide what is worth the effort. Solving this problem would be great experience for me, but I would really like to just get more comfortable with the basic workings of the OS before I delve into advanced operations. I will either play with PCLOS on this machine or use Puppy in Vesa mode, for now.
Perhaps if I come across another "tinker" machine WITHOUT onboard graphics, I will give Puppy another try.
What is the most frustrating is that Ubuntu (the "king" of all Linux distros) does the same thing and I cannot find an option like in PCLOS. I have posed the question on the Ubuntu boards, but they are so busy that it got buried in less than a day.
Thanks for your help.
PK
I guess you could say that I am a geologist by degree, but not by practice.
At least I got to learn some great words, like "allochthonous" and "phenocryst" and "porphry" etc.
Anyway, back to the task at hand. You know, being a Linux newb, I have to at some point decide what is worth the effort. Solving this problem would be great experience for me, but I would really like to just get more comfortable with the basic workings of the OS before I delve into advanced operations. I will either play with PCLOS on this machine or use Puppy in Vesa mode, for now.
Perhaps if I come across another "tinker" machine WITHOUT onboard graphics, I will give Puppy another try.
What is the most frustrating is that Ubuntu (the "king" of all Linux distros) does the same thing and I cannot find an option like in PCLOS. I have posed the question on the Ubuntu boards, but they are so busy that it got buried in less than a day.
Thanks for your help.
PK
Well, I'm not an IT person either, PK! So, when it comes to software, I have to ask these guys for a detailed recipe. My solutions tend to be of the hardware variety, at which I have spent too much of a lifetime fiddling - hence the scalpel trick.
Junk comes in the front door bent, broken and dead, and usually leaves by midday shiny and bright and working. Writing lines of code just aint my bag, but we are all very grateful to those who enjoy it.
Ha! G2 slipped in before me. See what I mean? Once you get the recipe, all things are possible.
Junk comes in the front door bent, broken and dead, and usually leaves by midday shiny and bright and working. Writing lines of code just aint my bag, but we are all very grateful to those who enjoy it.
Ha! G2 slipped in before me. See what I mean? Once you get the recipe, all things are possible.
At great person risk (!), I dug out my old i810 Gigabyte board and ran through the various trials outlined by allo, above.
Firstly, you need to choose the PCI display option before you transfer to a PCI card, ie use the onboard video to access the BIOS to change this.
Using the XVesa option, both liveCD and fully installed Puppy work perfectly.
However, allo is correct that it is not possible to switch to Xorg by any method, viz: wizardwizard from the GUI, xorgwizard after dropping back to a prompt or from a fresh start liveCD when using the PCI card.
It is possible to get at the Tweaks option and editing advice when using the fully installed version, though. In my case, it didn't help. Most old PCI video cards aren't up to the task, anyway - the ones I keep for testing are mostly 2 & 4Mb CL cards and a couple of Matrox super-duper jobbies that need extra special considerations just to get the BIOS screen display!
There are limits to what one can squeeze out of ancient kit like this. Seems that allo's attempts exceed that capability.
Firstly, you need to choose the PCI display option before you transfer to a PCI card, ie use the onboard video to access the BIOS to change this.
Using the XVesa option, both liveCD and fully installed Puppy work perfectly.
However, allo is correct that it is not possible to switch to Xorg by any method, viz: wizardwizard from the GUI, xorgwizard after dropping back to a prompt or from a fresh start liveCD when using the PCI card.
It is possible to get at the Tweaks option and editing advice when using the fully installed version, though. In my case, it didn't help. Most old PCI video cards aren't up to the task, anyway - the ones I keep for testing are mostly 2 & 4Mb CL cards and a couple of Matrox super-duper jobbies that need extra special considerations just to get the BIOS screen display!
There are limits to what one can squeeze out of ancient kit like this. Seems that allo's attempts exceed that capability.
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Sit Heel Speak
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I still suspect that GuestToo and myself are on the right Holmesian track: whatever changes PCLinuxOS makes to the "Device" section of its XOrg config file for the accommodation of this particular video card, making those same changes to Puppy's XOrg config file, making sure to change "i810" to "ati", ought to make it work.
Mine, specifically, looks like this:
Section "Device"
Identifier "Card0"
Driver "ati"
VendorName "ATI Technologies Inc"
BoardName "Rage 128 PF/PRO AGP 4x TMDS"
BusID "PCI:1:0:0"
EndSection
...which seems peculiar since the card is on the AGP bus, not the PCI bus. The first PCI slot is vacant.
@Sage: on your i810 board, does the facility exist in BIOS Setup / PCI Setup to designate explicitly IRQ 11 to the PCI slot the video adapter is in?
Does it have a "Plug'n'Play OS -- Yes/No" option, probably also in PCI Setup but maybe in Chip Features Setup or the like?
I've tried the AGP Rage 128 in both a P3 BX board and a vintage-2006 P4 D865GSA board. It is certainly up to the task. I get 800fps in glxgears on the P3 machine. Not bad for a vintage-1999 video card.
Mine, specifically, looks like this:
Section "Device"
Identifier "Card0"
Driver "ati"
VendorName "ATI Technologies Inc"
BoardName "Rage 128 PF/PRO AGP 4x TMDS"
BusID "PCI:1:0:0"
EndSection
...which seems peculiar since the card is on the AGP bus, not the PCI bus. The first PCI slot is vacant.
@Sage: on your i810 board, does the facility exist in BIOS Setup / PCI Setup to designate explicitly IRQ 11 to the PCI slot the video adapter is in?
Does it have a "Plug'n'Play OS -- Yes/No" option, probably also in PCI Setup but maybe in Chip Features Setup or the like?
I've tried the AGP Rage 128 in both a P3 BX board and a vintage-2006 P4 D865GSA board. It is certainly up to the task. I get 800fps in glxgears on the P3 machine. Not bad for a vintage-1999 video card.
No - mine is one of those cheap and nasty boards manufactured in Ireland for use by Dell, Gateway and others. Although this one has more components present than many, it's the horrible proprietary Phoenix BIOS. I always switch the P 'n P OFF but no choice of IRQ.
I suppose I should take my own advice and use a BIOS tweak utility, but the moment has long passed for this board.....
I suppose I should take my own advice and use a BIOS tweak utility, but the moment has long passed for this board.....