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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Hardware » Video
ATI graphic cards under Puppy (maybe also Beryl)?
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perixx

Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr 2007, 17:19    Post_subject:  ATI graphic cards under Puppy (maybe also Beryl)?  

Hello!

I'm just about upgrading / rebuilding my system and I've heard a lot of noise about ATI graphic cards being not properly supported under Linux systems like Puppy. I'd prefer ATI cards, for they seem to be cheaper and more energy-efficient along with having better output signals...

Can somebody tell me anything about this rumors of Nvidia being the better choice for Linux systems? I'm thinking of buying a mainboard with onboard graphics first and then upgrading with an ATI card. ? . ! ?

Of particular importance to me: how would an ATI card perform at higher graphic modes under Linux, such as used by Beryl and AIGLX?
I read about ATI drivers aren't supporting Beryl currently... hmm...

:¬,

perixx
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titanreign

Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2007, 16:15    Post_subject:  

From personal experience my ati 9250 has been quite a problem. But alot of distros can use it without ati's drivers. I say this because I have only gotten ati's drivers to install and work properly on one distro, and thats PCLinuxOS.. I've never had xorg on puppy, despite trying many many times. PCLinuxOS comes with beryl already installed and beryl does work with it right out the box. It lacks a few of the more advanced features on beryl like the rain effects, but otherwise its fine. My plan is to move to nvidia as soon as I can afford to spend the money on a decent card. I'd recommend going ahead with an nvidia card, as the drivers are open source, thus making them the most commonly used and supported under *nix systems.
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wow

Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 986
Location: Peru

PostPosted: Tue 01 May 2007, 02:08    Post_subject: Re: ATI graphic cards under Puppy (maybe also Beryl)?  

perixx wrote:
Can somebody tell me anything about this rumors of Nvidia being the better choice for Linux systems?

1. Nvidia provides good drivers(proprietary) for linux.
2. The latest open source driver has "a very limited 3D support for extremely lucky developers" [read more]
perixx wrote:
I'm thinking of buying a mainboard with onboard graphics first and then upgrading with an ATI card. ? . ! ?

Beryl also runs on PC's with new Intel graphic chips.
perixx wrote:
Of particular importance to me: how would an ATI card perform at higher graphic modes under Linux, such as used by Beryl and AIGLX?
I read about ATI drivers aren't supporting Beryl currently... hmm...

Many people recommend to switch back to the open source driver, I don't have more info about this...

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perixx

Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Tue 01 May 2007, 08:55    Post_subject:  

Hmmm....

thanks for your info... that poses even more questions then before, of course. Maybe I'll approach the topic from the app-side:

I'm planning to use AIGLX (Ubuntu) and/or Beryl (Puppy) and want to have some decent 3D support under Linux for games and rendering (World of Warcraft, Blender and so on) - what can you recommend on that?

I pretty much would buy me an ATI X1950xx or X1650xx/512MB for there are some convincing indications that those cards perform very well (also under WIN) and are also very reasonably priced. I've got no idea, which Nvidia models would equal those cards in performance.

Currently I have a GeForce2 GTS/32MB and it performed rather good the past few years (though the screen refresh rate under Puppy/Xorg leaves a bit to be desired, but I'm gonna get me a new TFT anyway).

More of a feeling, but I tend to regard ATI as being a bit more 'sympathetic' than Nvidia. That's why I'd prefer ATI/AMD if decent performance can be reached with SOME drivers (proprietary or not) - are Nvidia's ppt drivers any better than ATI's?


Thank you for info!

perixx
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Gekko


Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 445
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2007, 07:00    Post_subject:  

titanreign: I bet you have an onboard graphics card as well as your ATi card don't you, if you do, PM and me and I bet I can sort out the error once and for all.
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Gn2


Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 936
Location: virtual - Veni vidi, nihil est adpulerit

PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2007, 12:34    Post_subject:  

Random Rolling Eyes thoughts:

ATI vs Nvidia:

There is only one definitive method -

Read the Mfgr's specs, (be aware that ATI licenses 3rd party OEMs to use ATI chipsets, but the firmware & capabilities will differ)

Read reliable Graphics Card reviewer Forums > test results.
It is still latest Games that drive the user hardware wars (3D accleration, Xinerama, Ram, pixel shading, etc.)
Those mostly shoot-em-up games are primarily targeted for the largest dollar market > Windows users.

Linux has made great strides - Ati is now more receptive to obvious - Linux market while much smaller,
is lucrative enough to now justify support via dedicated drivers.
That willingness to support is not on a par to Nvidia Linux kernel wrappers - it's dubious they ever will ( profit driven)

More the point - is present ATI /Nvidia proprietary support for LINUX suited to your needs ?
Results are very dependent on Confused several conditions:
Apps to be run, chipsets used > amount of user involvement to enable desired features >

O/System Forums are sounding boards for subjective opinions - NOT extensive/qualified testers evaluations
with resources to compare using dedicated utilities to do so. .

Capabilities of graphical hardware/software :
The majority of movie effects (render farms) now run on Linux based products.
These are NOT home user computers, nor are the graphic artists amatuer editors.

Using such as Maya/Gimp/Xara > surprisingly accomplished end results are possible
Maya is the home users approach to (mega-bucks) "Render Farms"
Gimp is Cool every bit as capable as any Adobe product
Xara is a very fast rendering machine, a work in progress.
None can produce "render farm output" nor do they require multi-Ks of dollar outlay

In end - determine what YOU want to do, how much troubles/involvment will be needed ?
Choose tools carefully, Learn them well > hopefully enjoy the experience

Who cares if end results are not perhaps perfection -
They are YOURS - if you are happy what else matters ?
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Sit Heel Speak


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2595
Location: downwind

PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2007, 16:15    Post_subject:  

perixx wrote:
...I'm planning to use AIGLX (Ubuntu) and/or Beryl (Puppy) and want to have some decent 3D support under Linux for games and rendering (World of Warcraft, Blender and so on) - what can you recommend on that?

I pretty much would buy me an ATI X1950xx or X1650xx/512MB for there are some convincing indications that those cards perform very well (also under WIN) and are also very reasonably priced. I've got no idea, which Nvidia models would equal those cards in performance...

...More of a feeling, but I tend to regard ATI as being a bit more 'sympathetic' than Nvidia. That's why I'd prefer ATI/AMD if decent performance can be reached with SOME drivers (proprietary or not) - are Nvidia's ppt drivers any better than ATI's?...

My own budget is modest, my P4 has only an AGP 8X not a PCI-e video slot, and I intend to use it under Linux,...and so I too have been considering which popularly-priced video adapter to choose.

There are rendering speed (fillrate) charts at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_NVIDIA_Graphics_Processing_Units

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ATI_Graphics_Processing_Units

At the high end, in PCI-e, nVidia's 8800-series cards presently offer the best performance, and in less-expensive AGP 8X cards the nVidia 7600- through 7950-series also appear to beat anything that ATi has to offer. However if one were to compare an ATi card and an nVidia card, both rated around fillrate 2400 MT/s under XP or Vista, I am unaware of any difference you will see under Linux unless it be in the driver software.

The idea I get from reading recent posts at, for example, the http://www.phoronix.com video adapter forum, is that nVidia's proprietary Linux driver far outperforms any Linux driver currently available for ATi cards.

However, at http://kerneltrap.org/node/7228 is a report of an exploitable security hole found in nVidia's proprietary Linux driver last October. According to http://jblack.linuxguru.net/node/68 , nVidia knew about the hole but did not do anything about it for two years; this makes me very reluctant to trust a proprietary driver, especially from nVidia.

So, in light of the fact that one exploitable hole has already been found in the proprietary nVidia driver, my inclination is to go with an ATi card such as the 1650 XT or Pro (it now comes in AGP 8X, not yet shown in the Wikipedia chart), and use the open-source http://www.free3d.org Radeon driver. I am unaware of any 1950-based version which will go in my computer's AGP 8X slot.

Both ATi and nVidia have announced that they will introduce new video card lines this month (May 2007), so you might wait and see if prices on older cards drop. The most intriguing news I've seen is that nVidia will introduce an AGP 8X 8-series card. If an open-source Linux 3D driver becomes available for it from, say, for example, The Nouveau Project ( http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/ ) and if it is priced under $200, and if my 510-watt power supply will support it, then that is probably the card I will buy. Before buying any newer video card, first check the side of the box or the manufacturer's website and make sure you have a power supply of wattage rating adequate to support it. If you decide to buy a new power supply to support a new video card, I suggest you first peruse the recent thread "Power Supplies."

HTH,
SHS
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Gn2


Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 936
Location: virtual - Veni vidi, nihil est adpulerit

PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2007, 19:37    Post_subject:  

Hey , who dropped the baton - in Confused The_Security_Race ?

That vulnerability is not restricted to Nvidia drivers:

Not the NORMAL Threat

All direct access to low level kernel DMA ABI intercepts must be examined ( who to do it) & unknowns pondered

Worried if known threats have yet to be plugged ?
There are also known kernel exploits -as well as:
RACE CONDITIONS
> None of which are easy to employ nor circumvent

To keep in perspective : What is to stop an uploaded user supplied Puplet that is unverified to contain malware or unintentional security holes ?
How secure is repositories or any sources
How trusted is plug-ins from Web > Esp. graphical embedded URLs.

AFAICS, at present, Nvidia seems faster to respond to Linux needs than ATI

All security is more a state of mind > change the incentives
= All is a game of catch-up and users are ill-equipped to cope.
( I'm so far behind - the "Rat-pack" so far out of my sight - I think
my place in the never_ending_exploit race is .... )
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perixx

Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Fri 04 May 2007, 15:41    Post_subject:  

Well, hi there!


Now I made a decision: I couldn't resist the well priced Palit X1950GT Super. I know it has HDCP onboard and I know ATI isn't very Linux-friendly.
However, I'm positive that ATI will improve in that respect - At least I hope so.

If not, I still can buy a better graphics card for Linux on cheap in near future; AFAIK, Linux driver's performance won't be even close to WIN drivers anytime soon, which means they won't support decent 3D power and effects for games.

I only wonder how certain Consoles (I believe Sony's or Nintendo's) could use Linux without really high-end drivers Wink Maybe if the pressure on ATI is growing from the consumer side, they will rethink their approach on Linux.

For now, a really cheap Nvidia card (maybe even a PCI card might do for Linux). That is, if my Palit won't gonna work under Linux at all - anything else (2D) will be fast enough for almost any needs. Hopefully Smile

perixx
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perixx

Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2007, 05:27    Post_subject:  

Update:

Finally I managed to overcome some major and minor nasties after I upgraded my system (includes an ATI X1950 GT card type). Since I wasn't able to run any other than vesa (heavily flickering - regardless of the resolution) modes, I decided to give Xubuntu 7.02 a try.

Same problems there (under xfce), except for the difference when I opted in and installed the 'ATI proprietary drivers' - rock solid desktop experience (not been testing any of the 3D performance yet, though). The 'radeon' drivers option in the xorg.conf would only end up in rendering xwin unusable, so simply using the standard xfce with 'glass' effects isn't possible, I'd have to try Beryl for that purpose.

I'll give GN2's suggestion of the free software driver a try under Puppy now, then I'm gonna use proprietary drivers.

perixx
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