Seamonkey 1.08... why such an old version?

[miriam]

Hi. My parents keep getting confused when they try to start their web browser while their email client is open, or email client while the browser is open. Instead of re-using the existing instance, a message pops up to "Please start Mail from Window menu of currently running Mozilla/Seamonkey". I explain to them how to start it from the existing copy already running, but they seem to have difficulty following, and it puzzles them that there was no such problem in Windows.

I decided to look into some way of getting it to do this using the -remote option of Seamonkey, but I don't think it is possible with Seamonkey 1.08. I did notice that later versions automatically re-use the loaded code. So I was thinking of upgrading to a later version, but before I do, and risk screwing up their system for some hours, I figured it would be sensible to ask if anybody knows if there is some special reason why Puppy uses such an old version.

Anybody?

[Bruce B]

* I use 1.1.2 with no problems.

* Puppy has a script to detect a running instance of SeaMonkey, if there is one - it pops up the message. Purpose is to save resources.

[miriam]

Excellent! Thanks Bruce! I'll install a recent version of Seamonkey today before I head back home.

Yes. Seamonkey 1.08 (the one included with Puppy 2.16) is the last version of Seamonkey that doesn't automatically re-use existing resources. That's the reason for the script warning. Probably whoever wrote the script also looked at whether Seamonkey could be forced to re-use loaded code, but concluded (like me) that it was impossible. What I couldn't understand was why they didn't go for a more recent version. I suspect that it may be to do with code size -- always an important concern in Puppy.

[Lobster]

1.1.2 is in "Happy" (Puppy 2.20) which will be bug fixed and an Alpha/Beta released shortly
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Puppy220

Seamonkey 1.08 is stable on all systems. 1.12 worked OK for me in an experimental release from Barry in Puppy 2.16 but Barry reverted to Seamonkey 1.08 because it worked on more systems . . .

Hope that clarifies

[miriam]

Here is some good news:

I downloaded the latest version of Seamonkey (1.1.4) from
http://seamonkey.ilias.ca/downloads/
then (after backing up the old Seamonkey files and my email and bookmarks, for safety's sake) I installed it. It was totally painless! I couldn't believe it was so easy!

All I had to do was edit the
/usr/local/bin/defaultbrowser
script to be:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
#exec mozstart "$@"
exec /usr/local/seamonkey/seamonkey "$@"

and
/usr/local/bin/defaultemail
script to be:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
#exec mozmail "$@"
exec /usr/local/seamonkey/seamonkey -mail "$@"

The new version of Seamonkey definitely re-uses any already loaded code. I ran some tests that confirmed RAM use is the same whether multiple instances are started from the desktop icons or from the same window.

Best of all, the new version is much, much faster than the old, slow one. Added to that, the new version has a bunch of security fixes and a lot of nice added features, like spell-check as you type, thumbnails of pages behind browser tabs that pop up when you hover your mouse over the tab, and much more.

The new version's installer is not much bigger than the old one (14 MB compared to 13 MB), but I haven't checked out how much bigger that expands to.

I'd say it is well worth the trouble to upgrade.

[miriam]

Thanks Lobster. It didn't occur to me that compatibility might be a problem over different systems. I figured Barry probably had a good reason.

It would be interesting to see if Seamonkey 1.1.4 works for a lot of people.

[BarryK]

The next Puppy, 2.20, has SeaMonkey 1.1.2.

[Flash]

The next Puppy, 2.20, has SeaMonkey 1.1.2.

With automatic spell checking that even works in the forum composer window.

[Bruce B]

miriam

Having reviewed how you did it, I recommend editing /etc/profile at line #30 - Mozilla_Five_Home variable to show the new path /usr/local/seamonkey/

Bruce

[clarf]

I hope next Puppy 2.20 with SeaMonkey 1.1.2. has a miriam's fix suggested in an previous post http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=20908. This fix some problem when mozilla open files with spaces name.

[joki]

The new version's installer is not much bigger than the old one (14 MB compared to 13 MB), but I haven't checked out how much bigger that expands to.

I'd say it is well worth the trouble to upgrade.

14mb installer
if seamonkey is easy to install into puppy how about not having it in the iso, just have dillo and a separate sfs or installer?

opera static installed takes up 18mb. using opera would result in at least 14mb shaved off the puppy iso. how can seamonkey/moz engine use up so many more megabytes and yet do less?

[Henry]

"how can seamonkey/moz engine use up so many more megabytes and yet do less?"

I'm a very long time Opera user (used it in Puppy for a time, still use it in windows), but Barry has made a very good choice of Seamonkey for Puppy. You get excellent email with the ability to use Gnupg. Opera's email is odd and no gpg is possible, a show-stopper for me. You get news and instant messenger and a wysiwyg html editor thrown in with Seamonkey. (and I think some of it is also used by other apps)

Everything's a compromise of course and it's possible we may some time have a true "roll your own" Puppy.

Henry

[Bruce B]

I estimate the size of the browsers in a normal installation at:

17MB for Opera
45 MB for SeaMonkey suite

Even though SeaMonkey has more features, which account for some of the extra size, I still think Opera happens to be a particularly efficiently coded and designed piece of software.

Yet, I still use SeaMonkey as my primary browser.

[SirDuncan]

I've always had trouble deciding what browser to use. I like Opera because it has many things built in. It handles browsing, e-mail, torrents, etc. Also, it keeps these things in a smaller package.

Mozilla browsers, however, have better plug-in support. This can be a big sticking point for some people (myself included).

Ultimately, I use Opera for minimal Puppy builds and FireFox/IceWeasel on fatter builds (SeaMonkey with spell checking might be an option).

As for wysiwyg HTML editors, I just use nvu anyway. So having one with SeaMonkey is wasted space for me, but to each his own.

That's my two bits anyway.

[miriam]

BruceB: I logged in here today to post about my difficulties with gxine after I installed the latest Seamonkey. I notice you have pre-empted that.

When I installed Seamonkey I found gxine wouldn't play. (EDIT: I've found a simpler, easier way than editing the profile script. See the HOWTO or my update below.) A little bit of investigating showed that it relies upon some of the Mozilla libraries, and the $LD_LIBRARY_PATH to them is set in the /etc/profile file when Puppy is starting up making the mozilla libraries accessible to all. Unfortunately, the new Seamonkey loads to a new place that the profile script doesn't know about. The fix is easy, as BruceB mentioned. Just change the appropriate couple of lines in the /etc/profile script somewhere between line 30 to 46, depending on your Puppy version.

Change from

Code: Select all

if [ -e /usr/lib/mozilla ];then
 LD_LIBRARY_PATH="/usr/lib/mozilla:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH"
fi

to

Code: Select all

#if [ -e /usr/lib/mozilla ];then
# LD_LIBRARY_PATH="/usr/lib/mozilla:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH"
#fi
if [ -e /usr/local/seamonkey ];then
 LD_LIBRARY_PATH="/usr/local/seamonkey:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH"
fi

Of course if you choose a different location for Seamonkey then you'll need to alter the code accordingly.

As you see, I commented the old path out. It doesn't hurt to leave it uncommented if you have removed the old Seamonkey, but every line commented out is a line not run and a faster startup. I'd advise definitely commenting it out if you don't remove the old Seamonkey installation.

clarf: I don't think the quotes fix that I suggested for the old installation is needed for this new version. Just make sure references to what Seamonkey loads ("$@") is always quoted, so that Seamonkey isn't confounded by pages with spaces in the path/filename.

Regarding Opera vs Mozilla: Web browsers have various capabilities and uses that I use depending on my needs at the time. I often use Dillo for its speed. I used to use Opera, but have become very comfortable with Seamonkey. I seem to be swimming against a lot of my friends who use Firefox (which I think is actually slower than Seamonkey these days), but I need to have my email stored on my machine for offline use. My friends tend to use online email services like gmail. For me the real winner is Seamonkey's inclusion of a simple, easy-to-use HTML editor. I tend to write my HTML in a text editor, but I've managed to convert a lot of people from using Microsoft Word (shudder) or its clones, by showing them how easy it is to use Seamonkey's Composer and how small is the result compared to files from those other products. I'm also fond of pointing out how pretty-much everybody on the planet with a computer can view HTML, whereas many people do not own Microsoft Word or similar. I find that capability to convert people away from closed formats invaluable.

BarryK: Yay! Puppy 2.20 on the way! ...and with a newer Seamonkey. Cool. I can hardly wait to download and install it on one of my machines. Puppy is getting like a high quality TV show (though I don't get TV here) which causes you to spend much of the week eagerly anticipating the next episode.

[Henry]

Re HTML generation -

I mentioned Composer as a plus in Seamonkey, and I'm sure it is for many casual users. I actually have never used it, nor it's lookalikes, NVU or Kompozer. I have always tried to code HTML to standards, and for that I use a good code editor as HTML Pad 2006 in windows or Bluefish in Puppy, both augmented by HTML TIDY of course.

Henry

[miriam]

I've found that Seamonkey 1.1.4's HTML editor doesn't like to start separately if there is an existing instance of Seamonkey running. It puts up a profile manager window, but then won't let you choose the current (default) profile. Anybody know how to fix that?

I've now posted a more detailed description of my Seamonkey adventures (sounds like it should be a Disney cartoon) to the HOWTO area. at http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 851#139851

[SirDuncan]

Re HTML generation -

I mentioned Composer as a plus in Seamonkey, and I'm sure it is for many casual users. I actually have never used it, nor it's lookalikes, NVU or Kompozer. I have always tried to code HTML to standards, and for that I use a good code editor as HTML Pad 2006 in windows or Bluefish in Puppy, both augmented by HTML TIDY of course.

In Windows I usually use Dreamweaver. I wouldn't pay for it (great program, but it is expensive), but I got it as a gift. Out of curiosity, what standards do Nvu/Kompozer not follow?

[Henry]

"Out of curiosity, what standards do Nvu/Kompozer not follow?"

A very fair question, and I should have seen it coming. I do not remember the details, having been some years since I evaluated Composer and NVU. NVU was eagerly anticipated until it finally emerged as 1.0, which I think has not been upgraded since, Kompozer having meantime attempted to fix some of the problems.

I do recall problems in getting the output of these programs to validate to W3C. Also that the xhtml looked quite different from my validated, TIDYed code. NVU having e.g. CSS problems and Composer having redundant lines. OK, obviously they work, and most people will happily use them!

http://web.onetel.com/~charlescooke/nvubugs10.htm

Mr. Cooke has taken a very careful look at NVU.

Henry