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Can I put Puppy on HD by itself?
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Walt H


Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 216
Location: citizen of the world

PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct 2005, 00:50    Post_subject:  Can I put Puppy on HD by itself?  

I know putting Puppy on HD has been discussed in several forums, but one thing that isn't quite clear to me is whether Puppy can be made to take over an entire hard drive.

I know that part of the beauty is being able to take your OS wherever you go, but I also think Puppy, because it is lean and mean but can be fattened up, makes a great base OS for installing on hard drive.

I've read a lot of the material but wonder whether you can do a Puppy install onto a HD and have it erase whatever is already there and also whether Puppy then resembles a more traditional Linux distro (i.e., does it still create the pup001 file?). I'm sorry if all of this is clear to everyone else. Thanks.

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Walt

Now that you point it out to me, the answer seems painfully obvious.
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Mr Doolie

Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct 2005, 01:03    Post_subject:  

> I'm sorry if all of this is clear to everyone else. Thanks.

Not everybody, Walt. I dunno either but am waiting to find out.
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MU


Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13642
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct 2005, 01:06    Post_subject:  

I made it today, not the whole drive, but one partition of 2 Gigabyte.

You can do that from the "Setup"-menue.

As I just had downloaded the ISO, but not burned it to CD, I slightly altered the file "installfunctions" to search not on CD but on my Windows-Drive for the files to copy to the new partition.

I also have set up Grub manually to match my other systems.

A Pup001 is not longer needed, it is a full puppy like Mandrake or Debian.

It is a bit slower than running with pup001, but still much faster than my mandrake.
Nice: you still can automatically mount usr_devx.sfs (just 50 MB, simply copy it to "/") with all the compilers. If you would extract it (what is possible), it would eat 1GB(!) of space!

--
The even faster solution is to simply copy the files from CD to a harddrive, so that pup001 still is used. But if you install lots of software, you have to increase its size, and I do not feel good with a 1 GB large single file (imagine just 1 byte gets corrupted - the whole file might be unusable).

Mark
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tempestuous

Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 5271
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct 2005, 08:48    Post_subject:  

Adding to what MU has said ...
sure, you can take over the whole hard drive if you wish. From the Start menu > Setup > Install Puppy hard drive
you can choose Type 1 installation - compressed (similar to liveCD) or Type 2 - conventional. Type 2 is what you want.
When prompted where you want your bootloader installed to, you should choose MasterBootRecord.
If you don't already have your hard drive suitably partitioned, you should run "cfdisk" first.
Pup001 is not relevant to a full hard drive installation.

A full hard drive installation is useful for development. The entire filesystem can be changed, not just /root, /etc, and /usr.
Also, its bootup time is really fast.

But once you move away from one of Puppy's main features of running in RAM, you might then question whether you're really more suited to a full-featured version of Linux ... or perhaps a "medium-weight" version like Vector or Mepis.

Or why not have the best of both worlds? Multiboot your computer.
I multiboot a laptop with a 30GB drive between Window$ XP, Debian, Vector, and Puppy, on 4 separate partitions. There's also a shared swap partition.
And finally, I also have compressed versions of Puppy and DamnSmallLinux which boot from my first Linux partition (hda2, which contains Debian).
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Walt H


Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 216
Location: citizen of the world

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 01:31    Post_subject:  

tempestuous wrote:
But once you move away from one of Puppy's main features of running in RAM, you might then question whether you're really more suited to a full-featured version of Linux ... or perhaps a "medium-weight" version like Vector or Mepis.


First off, I translate "full-featured" as bloated. My machine came pre-loaded with Xandros, and that system is as slow as molasses. While KDE looks nice, it seems to have become (to my uneducated eyes) almost as resource hungry as Windows. Now back to the rest of your post.

Are you suggesting (and Guest Too, I think to some extent in the VFAT thread in this forum) that those of us who want a system on the HD should look somewhere else? The fact that Puppy is lean to start out with is one of the things that makes it attractive to me as my sole OS. I first downloaded it when I was on dialup, which eliminated other possible distributions because of their size and the time needed for a download.

Now that I have a faster connection, time is not a consideration, but I still like the fact that I can build it into what I want without having to weed out the things I don't want. I like that I can install Scribus without it uninstalling a bunch of other stuff. (This was a problem with Scribus in the past; maybe it's been fixed.)Plus, I know it works with my USB wireless adapter. I'd hate to install another system only to find it doesn't work with it. That basically leaves me with live CDs that can be installed. Kanotix works with my adapter, but there is so much stuff packed onto the CD that I will never use, that I'm not sure where to start to get rid of stuff.

tempestuous wrote:
Or why not have the best of both worlds? Multiboot your computer.
I multiboot a laptop with a 30GB drive between Window$ XP, Debian, Vector, and Puppy, on 4 separate partitions. There's also a shared swap partition.
And finally, I also have compressed versions of Puppy and DamnSmallLinux which boot from my first Linux partition (hda2, which contains Debian).


I did dual-boot when I first started using Linux, but I went MS-less two years ago (at home) and have no desire to use it again (have to at work unfortunately). I feel a bit lost anytime I have to use my wife's computer with XP (especially in the default XP layout). I also want to get rid of Xandros. I want to pick a distribution and stick with it. Running one on top of another one I never (and I mean never) use seems a waste of resources and hard drive space.

So, if Puppy is not my best bet, I'm open to suggestions. I've looked at Kanotix and have thought about Zenwalk (formerly Minislack), even though it's not a live CD. Vector would be a possibility, I suppose. (I used to run 3.2 SOHO and liked it except for problems getting my printing operational.)

If, against the seeming conventional wisdom, I decided I wanted Puppy on the hard drive, would there be anything different I would need to do to be able to compile programs (uncompress any files, relocate them, etc. - covered elsewhere to some extent, but it isn't fully clear what I would need to do or could do to/with usr_devx.sfs to keep using it)? Also, would I still be able to install dotpups and pupgets?

Finally, if I did install Puppy on HD, would I then be able to remaster a version to take and use on a second computer? (I also have an old laptop I will probably use from time to time.) Sorry for the lengthy post; I tend to ramble a little when I start to get tired.

EDIT: One other thing I thought of is the fact that I hate taking the Puppy CD out to do something else (like burn a CD) then forgetting to put Puppy back and, as a result, booting into Xandros then next time I start the system.

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Walt

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GuestToo
Puppy Master

Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 4078

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 03:07    Post_subject:  

Quote:
Are you suggesting (and Guest Too, I think to some extent in the VFAT thread in this forum) that those of us who want a system on the HD should look somewhere else?


i'm not suggesting that
in fact, most of the time i run Puppy from my hard drive ... but i have never bothered to do an option 2 install ... i find an option 1 install adequate for my purposes

actually, all i do is copy the 3 Puppy files from the iso to my hard drive ... and Puppy is installed ... this is a lot easier than a full option 2 install (copying all the individual uncompressed files to a dedicated partition) ... which is one of the advantages of an option 1 install

there are other advantages to running Puppy this way

unless you have very limited ram, usr_cram.fs is copied to ram when Puppy boots ... and ram is a lot faster than the hard drive ... with an option 2 install, each individual file that gets used as Puppy runs is accessed from the hard drive ... with an option 1 install, most of the files in /usr are already in ram

if any system files in /bin, /sbin, /lib, /usr are damaged (or corrupted or accidently deleted), they will usually be restored the next time Puppy boots ... to fix a corrupted file in /usr it might be necessary to delete the file in /root/.usr ... i borked one of my library files in Vector Linux, and there's no really easy way to fix it ... if i do the same thing in an option 1 Puppy, it's trivial to fix (just delete the file from /root/.usr)

to upgrade to the newest version of Puppy is easy too ... just copy the 3 Puppy files from the iso

there are advantages and disadvantages to each method ... for myself, i find that an option 1 install is adequate for my purposes
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tempestuous

Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 5271
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 05:33    Post_subject:  

I'm not suggesting that, either. What I'm really suggesting is that you should consider dual-booting a Puppy Type 1 install AND a Type 2 install.
Having both on the same computer would allow you a ready comparison.
I only gave you my multi-boot example to illustrate what can be done at the extreme level.

You could have both Puppy versions installed on a single ext2 or ext3 partition, or consider having two ext2/ext3 partitions to keep each installation separate.
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keenerd

Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 08:24    Post_subject:  

Here's a reason to have Puppy run from hard drive and not RAM - in some cases it can be faster.

I have an old computer with 128Mb of RAM. I have horrible habits that chew up all the RAM. I'll have Streamtuner, gxine, GIMP, Inkscape, Mozilla, Abiword, Adobe Acrobat, and a programming IDE of sorts open at the same time. Usually I only have three or four of those running at a time, but that starts to drag my system down. I'm a very RAM intensive user.

If I try to boot into RAM, I end up with 60 Mb RAM used an 50 Mb of swap used. Before I even open a single application, I'm using swap. If you include file buffers, I'm using all my RAM. Forced to use swap, my systems crawls.

Booting from harddrive is much nicer. It boots into 10-20Mb of RAM. 50Mb if you inlcude buffers (which don't really could since they get deleted instead of being pushed to swap). Now I have 100Mb of actual RAM to use.

There is one thing I've been meaning to try - a best of both worlds compromise. Basically, an option 1 install, but without loading anything to RAM. I know there will be a delay running apps, but I if the usr-cram gets pushed to swap there will be a delay anyway. I would also avoid the pup001 file, just because I like having my files out in the open.

But I rant.

On topic, some people have a ligitimate use for the hard drive install.
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mouldy


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 08:51    Post_subject:  

Yes you can have type2 install of Puppy on whole hardrive. Puppy doesnt automatically partition so you need to first boot from live cd and run cfdisk or fdisk to set the partitions (one for Puppy, one for swap). Either via command line or thru "Pdisk drive disk partition manager" script in the control panel menu. I did exactly this with Puppy 1.0.5

Oh and when you boot the live cd to do the install, use boot option 3 so Puppy doesnt put a pup file on one of the partitions.
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Mr Doolie

Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 13:07    Post_subject:  

> When prompted where you want
>your bootloader installed to, you
>should choose MasterBootRecord.

Is there a "Don't install a bootloader" option? I'm using Wingrub so my MBR stays Virgin-Winblows. What are the "Grubspeak" commands to boot a Linux partition?

> you might then question whether
> you're really more suited to a
> full-featured version of Linux.

Not a Linux Noobee like me! I'd rather start with Lil' Ol' Simple Loveable Puppy and build up my system instead of installing Mandrake or something and play the "What's all THIS Stuff" Game.

... Two cents inserted. Stand by for the flamethrowers.
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MU


Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13642
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 13:54    Post_subject:  

If you use WinGrub, you can add this to menu.lst:

title Puppy 105
kernel (hd0,4)/boot/vmlinuz root=/dev/ram0 PFILE=pup001-none PHOME=hda5
initrd (hd0,4)/boot//image.gz

Use this, if you use the method with pup001.

If you installed completely to Harddisk, use this entry:

title Puppy Linux-HD
kernel (hd0,4)/boot/vmlinuz root=/dev/hda5
initrd (hd0,4)/boot/image.gz


This will boot puppy from hda5 (the first logical drive in the extended partition).

Mark

Edited_time_total
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MU


Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13642
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 13:55    Post_subject:  

deleted, message was submitted twice
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MU


Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13642
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 14:09    Post_subject:  

oh, before I forget it: when I made a type2-install (copy all files to harddisk), there was no image.gz on the target-partition in /boot.
So I copied it manually there.

Mark
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GuestToo
Puppy Master

Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 4078

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 17:40    Post_subject:  

you should not need or use image.gz if you have an option 2 install ... basically, image.gz is /bin, /sbin, /lib, /var ... just about everything but /usr, /root, and /etc ... option 2 copies the files /bin/*, /sbin/* etc etc to your hard drive, so you do not need image.gz anymore
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MU


Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13642
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 18:08    Post_subject:  

Ah ok, thanks, then i will delete it Smile
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