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Phoenix CE Base Version for next Community Edition
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alienjeff


Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 2291
Location: Winsted, CT - USA

PostPosted: Thu 24 Jan 2008, 11:03    Post_subject:  

Pizzasgood wrote:
Before I do anything 2.14 specific, I just want to check: Is it final that we're using 2.14R? If so, should we still be using 'TS3.03CE' as the tag?

I trust Dougal and Pakt have been approached and consulted with on this change of course for the CE, as it may have some affect on their current and future 2.14R work. Project managers from earlier CEs should be consulted, too, as they've been down this road before and could share their experience (and nightmares).

Have any specs been decided upon? IIRC, 2.15CE had a lofty original goal of being a sub-100M ISO, yet after a barrage of requests of favorite apps, features, et al, it ended up being 30% larger. Any thought to this?

Speaking of specs, how about a strict minimum system requirements statement? Does the CE need to be able to run on machines that still sport carburetors? It's a large beach, so where is the line to be drawn in the sand?

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JohnRoberts

Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 145
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Thu 24 Jan 2008, 14:47    Post_subject:  

In a small, 8cm, multi-boot LiveDVD I always keep close there are:
> 2.03CE
> 2.15CE
> 2.14R
> 2.17.1

Crossing out the obvious (2.03CE and 2.15CE), my best picks are 2.14R and 2.17.1. They both look solid candidates for a new CE...

An important issue is OpenOffice. I have successfully used the OpenOffice sfs file on a USB stick. Trying to remaster this to a LiveCD ISO though, did not work properly. In the LiveCD with OpenOffice made this way, Calc crashes (the rest of the OpenOffice apps work Ok...). Bottom line is, that it will be important to be able to properly integrate OpenOffice in the new CE (i.e. a LiveCD) if it is not included a priori like 2.03CE...

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tempestuous

Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 5293
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 03:34    Post_subject:  

I discovered this thread late, but I just wanted to add my vote for the idea of basing the next CE version on 214R.
214R has had its foundations seriously tweaked and improved by Dougal and pakt. I believe that 214R is developmentally the successor to Puppy 2.16 (2.17 has a different kernel) and is an excellent basis for the next Community Edition.
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 07:06    Post_subject:  

tempestuous wrote:
I believe that 214R is developmentally the successor to Puppy 2.16 (2.17 has a different kernel) and is an excellent basis for the next Community Edition.

Except there is already a 2.16CE in pre-release. That kind of leaves nowhere to go/grow in the 2.1x series. And then there's the 3.xx series with no Community Edition and heaps to recommend it as a base. Sure it's hard work, but the 3.xx series needs consolidation (usually a function of the CE version) and it sits apart from both the 2.1x series and 4.xx series (Dingo).

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mbutts


Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 231
Location: sitn on an iceburg waiting for my next meal to swim by.

PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 10:18    Post_subject:  

WhoDo I think sums it up quit eloquently. Personally, if we have 2.14 and 2.16 CE editions, I think thats great! I also hope that 3.xx won't be abandoned in favor of Dingo and hope that a CE will be offered later on. I think Barry said somewhere in a early post that it was not the purpose of Dingo to replace anything going on in the 3.xx series but to be a bold attempt to try something new.

New official releases have slowed in recent months. I can remember when it seemed like every other day there was a new 2.xx Puppy . It was amazing how fast they were pumped out and how much development occurred in a short period of time. Several members took it upon themselves to develop unique derivatives with specific functions and appearance. It's great to see the hard work of the 2.xx and 3.xx being implemented for specific uses.

Barry is working hard to build the foundation for Dingo and this gives the rest of us time to polish what he and the other developers have given us in the 2.xx. and 3.xx series. Since the official releases have slowed, it has given the members time to pick a favorite Puppy to polish. I know I got to the point that I quit trying to customize a release of Puppy for myself because half way through any attempt I was greeted with a new Puppy and I would try it and see what it had to offer for new features. Then the 3.xx series came out. More cool stuff..... maybe I should wait and see what comes out next... I was like a kid in a candy store.... decisions, decisions.......

Yesterday I was working on a friends computer. I needed Puppy for something and I popped in a customized version of Puppy I made for them. I was amazed how cool it was and what I had incorporated into it. I thought it was either 2.16 or 2.17. When I looked at the version I was surprised that it was 2.14. Next time I am at their house, I'm making a copy of it for myself since I didn't save one for myself when I whipped it out for them.

When 2.14r came out, it was a great reminder that there is a lot of potential in old Puppy's for development. I try to download any members release and save it for future use here at my place. A good example is Watchdog. It's one I want to use someday for security here at the compound. I appreciate the fact that someone took the time to build something that I want to use someday!

Right now, with all the hard work of the members to customize Puppies, it's like having your cake and eating it too... then, have someone offer you a slice of pie, and then ask what kind ice cream you want on top of it too boot. It's a win-win situation. And just like with pie and ice cream, if you don't have room for it now, you can always wait and have it later. Wink

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nic2109

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 406
Location: Hayslope, near Middlemarch, Midlands, England

PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 14:31    Post_subject:  

It's true that Puppy 3 has stalled somewhat which is a shame. But there's going to be plenty of time to build a CE based on it. Right now the sap is rising for 2.14R so let's stick with it.

It seems to me that the thing we should be aiming for is stability and supportability as well as a wise selection of apps. Next; it MUST all work straight from the box and not be too scary for Windoze refugees/visitors. And lastly; it needs to look good too. Those first impressions are so important. The default theme etc needs to look like Vista in my opinion if we want to win over sceptical hearts and minds.

Where things get subjective is where we'll differ, but ecomoney will need the casting vote. It's a bit like informed consent in a medical context. The decision needs to take into account both the specialist's recommendation and the reason(s) for it, and the patient's preference and the reason(s) for it. Then the patient decides - and ecomoney is the patient in this analogy.

On the choice of apps: I have surprised myself to realize that I hardly use Open Office, but find Abiword or Gnumeric quick and easy. So my vote would be for the light-weight apps with clear and easy instructions for using the .sfs package. Office is typical bloatware with 80% of the features unused, so only include it as a user-requested option. I like the look of sylheed email, and the skipstone browser is also pretty impressive.

With judicious choices Puppy214R_CE (or whatever we need to rename it as) can still be suitable for old PCs rescued from skips AND look up-to-date.
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MU


Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13644
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 18:08    Post_subject:  

When I presented Build-a-Muppy, it was my intention to offer a system, that allows to build customized versions of Puppy, including fixes and enhancements we achieved in the last months.
This includes patches for initrd.gz by Pizzasgood and lots more.
It also has some of Puppy scripts localized.
I'd be glad if people would use it as a base for a CE version, and contribute further updates.

For example since 4 days I fight with Cups - the version I added does not work.
I made some progress, but it will take until weekend, until I can upload a fixed version.
Such annoying stuff keeps me off from trying other things, like adding compbiz.

Barry pointed out clearly, that he will concentrate on a complete rewrite of Puppy (Dingo), so don't expect a 3.02.
The 3-series with best slackware compatibility certainly already is a comunity-project, and will be continued like this.

ttuuxx has created brilliant addons to his firehydrant, NOP has added compbiz, Muppy is focussing on localization, and WOW has compiled the Gnome-libs and Gdeskletts (just to mention some, but far not all working actively on 301).

So instead of waiting for a 3.02 we now should try to combine the efforts that already have been achieved by the 3.01 based puppletts.

Mark
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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15122
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2008, 00:00    Post_subject:  

It makes sense to me to do as Mark (MU) and Warren (Whodo) have suggested.

The reason for the project leader is to make decisions and implement them. Talking Stick was conceived at a point when 3.02 was expected in a short time. It was conceved as a 3 based Puppy.

The bulk of the work of putting an Alpha of Talking Stick together will fall on Robert. So it his decision and he has to be happy with it..

If he has the capacity (this has been done previously) two experiments for comparison can be released.

One of the original ideas of Talking Stick was to base it on an existing Puplet.

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2008, 03:30    Post_subject:  

Lobster wrote:
The bulk of the work of putting an Alpha of Talking Stick together will fall on Robert. So it his decision and he has to be happy with it

I understand perfectly well where Robert is coming from. I understand his focus. It is a laudible objective he is aiming for, but it is not what a CE edition is about IMHO.

The first half of my suggestion is that Robert does what he wants, and uses 2.14R as a base for a revised and updated 2.15CE - that would meet his objectives while still keeping the CE lineage intact.

OTOH, the project Robert was originally asked, and agreed, to lead was a Series 3 Community Edition. By no stretch of anyone's imagination can that therefore be based on a Series 2 Puppy!

The second half of my suggestion is that those in the community who wish to do so, work on a bug fix consolidation of 3.01 that will become 3.02CE when we are comfortable with that. It surely wouldn't take too big an effort to achieve that. It's happening already. Just ask MU, Pizzasgood, Tronkel, et al.

There is no reason why both projects cannot co-exist, or share technological advances and script changes/fixes for that matter. Develop it once and use it twice, if you like. There are already some great things that need to find their way into 3.02CE from 2.14R, and from the work of contributors like MU, Wow, Tronkel, Pizzasgood, etc.

I hope that will help put the "baby" to bed, instead of throwing it out with the bath water! Wink

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2008, 05:18    Post_subject:  

WhoDo wrote:

Quote:
I understand perfectly well where Robert is coming from. I understand his focus. It is a laudible objective he is aiming for, but it is not what a CE edition is about IMHO.


Is a version of Puppy that is customised for an internet cafe the same thing as a community edition? I'm not sure what the answer to that is. Maybe what Robert is doing ought to be called 2.14IC (IC= Internet Cafe , lol.....)

Seriously though, there could well be a serious demand for internet cafe customised Puppy versions.

Great idea about a 2.15CE using 2.14R as the base - that's a terrific idea.

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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15122
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2008, 05:43    Post_subject:  

Quote:
The first half of my suggestion is that Robert does what he wants, and uses 2.14R as a base for a revised and updated 2.15CE - that would meet his objectives while still keeping the CE lineage intact.


That seems about right and a good place to start . . . if Robert agrees?

If anyone wants to be project leader for a 3.01 based community edition, please step forward.

Two community editions would then be possible . . .

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2008, 10:38    Post_subject:
Sub_title: plan of action
 

How about this for a plan of action?

In the time interval between now and the appearance of Puppy 4 Final:
1) Complete 2.14R
2)Apply this as 2.15CE on steriods by WhoDo
3)ttuxxx plus others who are interested takes on a face-lifted 3 series similar to Fire Hydrant.

All of the above are very worthwhile.

This clears the decks for Ecomoney to project-lead a Dingo 4 CE with all the help he needs.

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2008, 11:02    Post_subject: 2.14  

First off, 2.14r is essentially all of the features of 3.xx with the older kernel, and therefore more hardware support. It has also been extensively bugfixed, and more useability features added. There nothing old about it apart from the number...2.14. It has more akin with 3.01 retro than 2.14, or 2.16 which has a different kernel. The only thing it lacks in terms of programs from 3.01 retro is the updated pdf reader which I have asked to be included, and the lite browser (Im in discussion with the developer of skipstone to see if he will make some useability changes).

Secondly, I work with puppy all day every day. I run a testbed cybercafe at a local cybercafe, which also takes in old computers, reconditions them and gives them out to the local community, and are used by AVERAGE USERS. We have nearly a hundred computers running puppy in our local community, including homes and businesses. The project is about far more than the cybercafe! I believe this, together with my formal university training and experience as a professional programmer in industry and local government, gives me a good insight into what most people require of their operating system.

Ive not been idle over xmas, I have been testing 3.01 (buggy and unstable), 3.01 retro (stable, but still buggy), and 2.14 ce (refined, tested, with plenty of support, will run on older computers). 2.14r is head and shoulders above the others in terms of what people want, based on my own experience. If people want to develop operating systems for themselves that is fine. My understanding of what a COMMUNITY is however, means users, as well as developers.

Lobster, I believe my background in the community is the reason why you asked me to head up the community edition in the first place. You obviously had faith that I would make the correct decisions at the time based on that experience, or you would have created the community edition yourself. Why are you now changing your mind about this just because you disagree with a decision you made me responsible for making?

Whodo you told me when I asked you for guidence that at the end of the day, I was the one making the final decisions (after consultation) because I am the one most qualified to do so. I was asked to create a community edition, which version upon which it was based was not stated, so I am deciding based not only on the opinion of many of the forum members, but also upon the opinion of the community of users around me IRL.

Its been my experience as a developer myself, that to create a good computer program, I must put aside my own personal wishes, and create something that fits the requirements of the people that will eventually use the program. The reason that most computer software projects fail is because this doesnt happen.

The best community edition possible, would be one based on 2.14r, with the features identified through user testing as part of the talking stick project. When I was asked to do this job, I took it as a serious responsibility, and I want to create the best possible result I can. As for the name or the number given to it, it really doesnt matter to me.

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Leachim

Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2008, 11:37    Post_subject:  

I do not recommend any base edition here. I only want to line out the major difference (as to my knowledge) between Puppy 2.x and Puppy 3.x: glibc!

glibc is the most important library of an Unix system. Puppy 2.x contains a really old version of that library. So many old code is willing to run with Puppy 2.x, but lots of newer code rejects cooperation. On the other side nearly all new code should be able to link with Puppy 3.x' glibc but maybe not with the old one of Puppy 2.x.

I currently try to work around this problem. I use a Puppy 2.15CE based system and want to integrate new software that cannot be run with the old glibc. So I want to install two glibc-versions - one for old code, one for new code. Currently I try to figure out the necessary compilation options.
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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2008, 19:27    Post_subject:  

I don't really care what version gets used myself. Quite frankly, I won't be using it regardless of which is used. Not because of any important reason or anything. I just prefer Pizzapup. It's starting to get a little aged, but when I finally get caught up on all my commitments I'll be taking a break from using Puppy anyways, to try out some other distros (particularly Gentoo and Gobo). By the time I get done with that, 4.xx ought to be rolling along nicely, so I'll probably start fresh with that. Then when I get the time I'll start on the next Pizzapup. That won't happen until at least summer though, possibly later.
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