Phoenix CE Base Version for next Community Edition

A home for all kinds of Puppy related projects
Message
Author
nic2109
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon 01 Jan 2007, 20:24
Location: Hayslope, near Middlemarch, Midlands, England

#21 Post by nic2109 »

It's true that Puppy 3 has stalled somewhat which is a shame. But there's going to be plenty of time to build a CE based on it. Right now the sap is rising for 2.14R so let's stick with it.

It seems to me that the thing we should be aiming for is stability and supportability as well as a wise selection of apps. Next; it MUST all work straight from the box and not be too scary for Windoze refugees/visitors. And lastly; it needs to look good too. Those first impressions are so important. The default theme etc needs to look like Vista in my opinion if we want to win over sceptical hearts and minds.

Where things get subjective is where we'll differ, but ecomoney will need the casting vote. It's a bit like informed consent in a medical context. The decision needs to take into account both the specialist's recommendation and the reason(s) for it, and the patient's preference and the reason(s) for it. Then the patient decides - and ecomoney is the patient in this analogy.

On the choice of apps: I have surprised myself to realize that I hardly use Open Office, but find Abiword or Gnumeric quick and easy. So my vote would be for the light-weight apps with clear and easy instructions for using the .sfs package. Office is typical bloatware with 80% of the features unused, so only include it as a user-requested option. I like the look of sylheed email, and the skipstone browser is also pretty impressive.

With judicious choices Puppy214R_CE (or whatever we need to rename it as) can still be suitable for old PCs rescued from skips AND look up-to-date.

User avatar
MU
Posts: 13649
Joined: Wed 24 Aug 2005, 16:52
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany
Contact:

#22 Post by MU »

When I presented Build-a-Muppy, it was my intention to offer a system, that allows to build customized versions of Puppy, including fixes and enhancements we achieved in the last months.
This includes patches for initrd.gz by Pizzasgood and lots more.
It also has some of Puppy scripts localized.
I'd be glad if people would use it as a base for a CE version, and contribute further updates.

For example since 4 days I fight with Cups - the version I added does not work.
I made some progress, but it will take until weekend, until I can upload a fixed version.
Such annoying stuff keeps me off from trying other things, like adding compbiz.

Barry pointed out clearly, that he will concentrate on a complete rewrite of Puppy (Dingo), so don't expect a 3.02.
The 3-series with best slackware compatibility certainly already is a comunity-project, and will be continued like this.

ttuuxx has created brilliant addons to his firehydrant, NOP has added compbiz, Muppy is focussing on localization, and WOW has compiled the Gnome-libs and Gdeskletts (just to mention some, but far not all working actively on 301).

So instead of waiting for a 3.02 we now should try to combine the efforts that already have been achieved by the 3.01 based puppletts.

Mark

User avatar
Lobster
Official Crustacean
Posts: 15522
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
Location: Paradox Realm
Contact:

#23 Post by Lobster »

It makes sense to me to do as Mark (MU) and Warren (Whodo) have suggested.

The reason for the project leader is to make decisions and implement them. Talking Stick was conceived at a point when 3.02 was expected in a short time. It was conceved as a 3 based Puppy.

The bulk of the work of putting an Alpha of Talking Stick together will fall on Robert. So it his decision and he has to be happy with it..

If he has the capacity (this has been done previously) two experiments for comparison can be released.

One of the original ideas of Talking Stick was to base it on an existing Puplet.
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

User avatar
WhoDo
Posts: 4428
Joined: Wed 12 Jul 2006, 01:58
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

#24 Post by WhoDo »

Lobster wrote:The bulk of the work of putting an Alpha of Talking Stick together will fall on Robert. So it his decision and he has to be happy with it
I understand perfectly well where Robert is coming from. I understand his focus. It is a laudible objective he is aiming for, but it is not what a CE edition is about IMHO.

The first half of my suggestion is that Robert does what he wants, and uses 2.14R as a base for a revised and updated 2.15CE - that would meet his objectives while still keeping the CE lineage intact.

OTOH, the project Robert was originally asked, and agreed, to lead was a Series 3 Community Edition. By no stretch of anyone's imagination can that therefore be based on a Series 2 Puppy!

The second half of my suggestion is that those in the community who wish to do so, work on a bug fix consolidation of 3.01 that will become 3.02CE when we are comfortable with that. It surely wouldn't take too big an effort to achieve that. It's happening already. Just ask MU, Pizzasgood, Tronkel, et al.

There is no reason why both projects cannot co-exist, or share technological advances and script changes/fixes for that matter. Develop it once and use it twice, if you like. There are already some great things that need to find their way into 3.02CE from 2.14R, and from the work of contributors like MU, Wow, Tronkel, Pizzasgood, etc.

I hope that will help put the "baby" to bed, instead of throwing it out with the bath water! :wink:
[i]Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't![/i]
SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com

User avatar
tronkel
Posts: 1116
Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2005, 11:27
Location: Vienna Austria
Contact:

#25 Post by tronkel »

WhoDo wrote:
I understand perfectly well where Robert is coming from. I understand his focus. It is a laudible objective he is aiming for, but it is not what a CE edition is about IMHO.


Is a version of Puppy that is customised for an internet cafe the same thing as a community edition? I'm not sure what the answer to that is. Maybe what Robert is doing ought to be called 2.14IC (IC= Internet Cafe , lol.....)

Seriously though, there could well be a serious demand for internet cafe customised Puppy versions.

Great idea about a 2.15CE using 2.14R as the base - that's a terrific idea.
Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer

User avatar
Lobster
Official Crustacean
Posts: 15522
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
Location: Paradox Realm
Contact:

#26 Post by Lobster »

The first half of my suggestion is that Robert does what he wants, and uses 2.14R as a base for a revised and updated 2.15CE - that would meet his objectives while still keeping the CE lineage intact.
That seems about right and a good place to start . . . if Robert agrees?

If anyone wants to be project leader for a 3.01 based community edition, please step forward.

Two community editions would then be possible . . .
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

User avatar
tronkel
Posts: 1116
Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2005, 11:27
Location: Vienna Austria
Contact:

#27 Post by tronkel »

How about this for a plan of action?

In the time interval between now and the appearance of Puppy 4 Final:
1) Complete 2.14R
2)Apply this as 2.15CE on steriods by WhoDo
3)ttuxxx plus others who are interested takes on a face-lifted 3 series similar to Fire Hydrant.

All of the above are very worthwhile.

This clears the decks for Ecomoney to project-lead a Dingo 4 CE with all the help he needs.
Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer

User avatar
ecomoney
Posts: 2178
Joined: Fri 25 Nov 2005, 07:00
Location: Lincolnshire, England
Contact:

2.14

#28 Post by ecomoney »

First off, 2.14r is essentially all of the features of 3.xx with the older kernel, and therefore more hardware support. It has also been extensively bugfixed, and more useability features added. There nothing old about it apart from the number...2.14. It has more akin with 3.01 retro than 2.14, or 2.16 which has a different kernel. The only thing it lacks in terms of programs from 3.01 retro is the updated pdf reader which I have asked to be included, and the lite browser (Im in discussion with the developer of skipstone to see if he will make some useability changes).

Secondly, I work with puppy all day every day. I run a testbed cybercafe at a local cybercafe, which also takes in old computers, reconditions them and gives them out to the local community, and are used by AVERAGE USERS. We have nearly a hundred computers running puppy in our local community, including homes and businesses. The project is about far more than the cybercafe! I believe this, together with my formal university training and experience as a professional programmer in industry and local government, gives me a good insight into what most people require of their operating system.

Ive not been idle over xmas, I have been testing 3.01 (buggy and unstable), 3.01 retro (stable, but still buggy), and 2.14 ce (refined, tested, with plenty of support, will run on older computers). 2.14r is head and shoulders above the others in terms of what people want, based on my own experience. If people want to develop operating systems for themselves that is fine. My understanding of what a COMMUNITY is however, means users, as well as developers.

Lobster, I believe my background in the community is the reason why you asked me to head up the community edition in the first place. You obviously had faith that I would make the correct decisions at the time based on that experience, or you would have created the community edition yourself. Why are you now changing your mind about this just because you disagree with a decision you made me responsible for making?

Whodo you told me when I asked you for guidence that at the end of the day, I was the one making the final decisions (after consultation) because I am the one most qualified to do so. I was asked to create a community edition, which version upon which it was based was not stated, so I am deciding based not only on the opinion of many of the forum members, but also upon the opinion of the community of users around me IRL.

Its been my experience as a developer myself, that to create a good computer program, I must put aside my own personal wishes, and create something that fits the requirements of the people that will eventually use the program. The reason that most computer software projects fail is because this doesnt happen.

The best community edition possible, would be one based on 2.14r, with the features identified through user testing as part of the talking stick project. When I was asked to do this job, I took it as a serious responsibility, and I want to create the best possible result I can. As for the name or the number given to it, it really doesnt matter to me.
Puppy Linux's [url=http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=296352#296352]Mission[/url]

Sorry, my server is down atm!

Leachim
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun 27 May 2007, 23:04

#29 Post by Leachim »

I do not recommend any base edition here. I only want to line out the major difference (as to my knowledge) between Puppy 2.x and Puppy 3.x: glibc!

glibc is the most important library of an Unix system. Puppy 2.x contains a really old version of that library. So many old code is willing to run with Puppy 2.x, but lots of newer code rejects cooperation. On the other side nearly all new code should be able to link with Puppy 3.x' glibc but maybe not with the old one of Puppy 2.x.

I currently try to work around this problem. I use a Puppy 2.15CE based system and want to integrate new software that cannot be run with the old glibc. So I want to install two glibc-versions - one for old code, one for new code. Currently I try to figure out the necessary compilation options.

User avatar
Pizzasgood
Posts: 6183
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 20:28
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

#30 Post by Pizzasgood »

I don't really care what version gets used myself. Quite frankly, I won't be using it regardless of which is used. Not because of any important reason or anything. I just prefer Pizzapup. It's starting to get a little aged, but when I finally get caught up on all my commitments I'll be taking a break from using Puppy anyways, to try out some other distros (particularly Gentoo and Gobo). By the time I get done with that, 4.xx ought to be rolling along nicely, so I'll probably start fresh with that. Then when I get the time I'll start on the next Pizzapup. That won't happen until at least summer though, possibly later.
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]

User avatar
Lobster
Official Crustacean
Posts: 15522
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
Location: Paradox Realm
Contact:

#31 Post by Lobster »

Lobster, I believe my background in the community is the reason why you asked me to head up the community edition in the first place. You obviously had faith that I would make the correct decisions at the time based on that experience, or you would have created the community edition yourself. Why are you now changing your mind about this just because you disagree with a decision you made me responsible for making?
I fully support your decision to make CE for us and to make it reliable and to base it on what is the best available base.
Now it needs to come together. We have a base 2.14r. We have made that decision. We have a browser, Seamonkey. We have made that decision. Initial programs are available.

We now have to start building it. Telling us what we are doing. When an Alpha is available for feedback and so on :)

If you click on your first thread in this post, you can change the name of the thread to TalkingStickCE (or something more appropriate.)

We are also at the stage were a project leader for a community edition based on Dingo is also required. So I am interested in who is up for that . . .
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

User avatar
Pizzasgood
Posts: 6183
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 20:28
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

#32 Post by Pizzasgood »

Progress report: I have the technical stuff for syslinux/isolinux done in 3.xx now. The actual images and such will need tweaking, but it all works and I have the install script configured to use it (thought haven't had a chance to test that yet).

I'm done for tonight. Tomorrow I'll go back and work on compiling Pebble statically and maybe using uclib. Then I'll document all this stuff and upload it. Then depending on the time, I might start porting it all to 2.14R. I might have to wait until the weekend for that.
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]

User avatar
WhoDo
Posts: 4428
Joined: Wed 12 Jul 2006, 01:58
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

Re: 2.14

#33 Post by WhoDo »

ecomoney wrote:...[snip]...takes in old computers, reconditions them and gives them out to the local community, and are used by AVERAGE USERS. We have nearly a hundred computers running puppy in our local community, including homes and businesses....[snip]...My understanding of what a COMMUNITY is however, means users, as well as developers.
Where I think you are missing the point, Robert, is that the "Community" in "Community Edition" is not the user base of Puppy, or any other Linux. It is not your local community of Puppy users either. It is the community of Puppy users who frequent the forums, websites, etc and CONTRIBUTE to the Puppy development cycle. That means by testing, posting bugs, fixing the wiki pages, answering newbie questions, hosting downloads and torrents, etc. etc. THAT is the "Community" of which we speak.

You have broadened the definition to ALL Puppy users because that suits what YOU want to build. And because you are willing to do that, no-one is likely to disagree with you in any determined way ... except someone like me.

That's ok. Disagreement breeds discussion, reflection and hopefully consensus.
ecomoney wrote:Lobster, I believe my background in the community is the reason why you asked me to head up the community edition in the first place. You obviously had faith that I would make the correct decisions at the time based on that experience, or you would have created the community edition yourself. Why are you now changing your mind about this just because you disagree with a decision you made me responsible for making?
I don't believe this is about Robert "ecomoney" Simpson, or at least it shouldn't be. If you were to take a more objective view of the issue, you might be able to see the problems. By all means develop your stable, reliable, bullet-proof, RetroPuppy. Use all of the resources the community is willing to offer. Call it 2.15CE-Revisited if you like. The point is that is not what the original CE charter that you accepted was about. Is it hard to go bugfixing in 3.01? Sure. I know how hard it was in 2.15CE, so I'm not minimising the issue.
ecomoney wrote:Whodo you told me when I asked you for guidence that at the end of the day, I was the one making the final decisions (after consultation) because I am the one most qualified to do so.
No, because you are the leader of the project AS IT WAS OUTLINED. There is more than a semantic difference there. Let's draw an analogy you will recognise. A client asks you to develop a program to do a certain job. You accept the commission but part way through you see how big a job it really is and you get jelly-legs over it. So you decide to change the goal post and hope you can convince the customer what you want to do is better than what he asked you to do. Good luck. Sometimes you'll succeed but most times you'll be sacked, and probably not paid for what you've done so far. Is that a fair analogy of what's happening here?
ecomoney wrote:I was asked to create a community edition, which version upon which it was based was not stated, so I am deciding based not only on the opinion of many of the forum members, but also upon the opinion of the community of users around me IRL.
Umm...sorry but that's not true. Have you visited the CE wiki page at all? Does it not say a "Series 3 CE Edition"? Did you not agree to that and start examining the approach to TS3.03CE? Heck, I'm darn sure I didn't imagine all of that.

Ok, so you decided a 3.xxCE is too hard for you. Fine. Do what you want WITH the community's open and transparent approval. Hold a proper poll. Don't just base your decision on your own predisposition and the plaudits of one or two vocal members. Gee, I sat through hours and hours of IRC chat sessions, emails, PM's, forum threads, etc before I made the final choices. You tried 3.xx on your cafe machines and decided it's too "buggy". Well, duh! That's what is your project leadership role to coordinate the fixing thereof ("Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put" - Winston Churchill :wink: ).
ecomoney wrote:Its been my experience as a developer myself, that to create a good computer program, I must put aside my own personal wishes, and create something that fits the requirements of the people that will eventually use the program. The reason that most computer software projects fail is because this doesnt happen.
...but, Robert, the CE edition isn't for the "people" in general; it's for the "community" in particular. That's my point.
ecomoney wrote:The best community edition possible, would be one based on 2.14r, with the features identified through user testing as part of the talking stick project. When I was asked to do this job, I took it as a serious responsibility, and I want to create the best possible result I can. As for the name or the number given to it, it really doesnt matter to me.
Well "best" is a subjective term, Robert. If you really don't care about the name and number then I suggest you finish the job and call it 2.15CE Revisited! That way you get your cake and those who want a 3.xx series CE won't have to eat it! Someone else with more, time, energy, determination or whatever will come along to take on 3.02CE, I'm sure. It needs to be fixed; especially since Barry has clearly stated that 3.xx Puppy WILL coexist with 4.xx Dingo in the development cycle, while we all KNOW that the 2.xx series is at an end, developmentally speaking; there will be NO 2.18 version from Barry.

Look, I am truly sorry this has blown up like this. I would have preferred if you had responded to my last PM on the subject. I believe you didn't because you didn't want to "hear" what I "said". It was too far removed from where your mind was already set at the time. That's a pity. I'll say no more about your decision unless you persist in treating it as the original project you were invited to lead. It isn't. That's ok. It's a different project. No problem. Let's leave it at that, ok?
[i]Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't![/i]
SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com

User avatar
Lobster
Official Crustacean
Posts: 15522
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
Location: Paradox Realm
Contact:

#34 Post by Lobster »

:) Let me put this in another perspective
Not many were willing to take on or had the skills to create an ISO
in the early days . . .

The first community edition 1.09CE, was very much based on Nathan's efforts but with help and feedback from others
He went to create Grafpup

By the time 2.03CE was created, Hacao just went away
translated his version into English and that was the CE

This was the '2.03CE charter'
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/MeatyInfo
What we got and people were pleased with, was a stable Puppy with OpenOffice. There was practically no interaction from the community.
We were a fledgling Puppy.

You kindly stepped forward to help create 2.15CE
You were not well known to the community,
which was a risk that proved worth taking
The first Alphas were massive but the final version was a triumph

I do not expect Robert to manage the project
the way I always like or to make the decisions you would
prefer.

Ecomoney (Robert) deserves a degree of freedom and support.
Just as Barry chose to use JWM through thick and thin
(and it is now a proven window manager)

However I do support the decisions he makes and has made
on our behalf.
That is to use a stable version of Puppy + Seamonkey.

If you decide you would like to be project manager
for DingoCE, I will support you (in my own style)

I would suggest (thinking back) that once decisions start to
be implemented, we need to be with a project . . .

So . . .
Which version of Ezpup should we use?
or should we use the new themes in Dingo JWM as default?
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

User avatar
tronkel
Posts: 1116
Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2005, 11:27
Location: Vienna Austria
Contact:

#35 Post by tronkel »

All this who-does-what, to Puppy Linux version x.xx (CE or base) is a side issue IMHO.

Lets look again at the technical situation and where it stands at the moment.

1) 2 and 3 series Puppies are 2 different animals. The most important difference between then is that 3 series has Slackware compatibility. Nothing can be done to a 2 series Puppy version that will turn it into a 3 series version without building it again from scratch.

2) This puts Puppy 3 series in a special position. Even when Puppy 4 becomes a reality, there will be many users who will be happy that in case of necessity, they can always return to 3 series if need be. Same for 2-series afficionados.

3) Given this situation both 2 and 3 series projects should be left an a "stable" state so that any user at any time can go back and select any of these versions as suits their needs at the time. Therefore, both 2 as well as 2 series projects need to be done-and-dusted and signed off, ready to clear the decks for Puppy 4 and its inevitable CE version. The time between now and the arrival of Puppy 4 is the window of opportunity for this.

4) The question of who leads the CE project version of whatever base version, is really determined by whoever has the time, willingness and expertise to undertake the task. It does not have to be a single person who does this. This work could be divided up 2 or even 3 project managers to lighten the load on any one person. What the version no designation of any of these terminating projects is, "ist egal" IMHO

5) I think also, the community as referred to in Puppy CE really refers to the Puppy community. This is a sub-set of the wider community at large. Puppy Linux will never be able to be all thing to all men in the wider community.
Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer

User avatar
WhoDo
Posts: 4428
Joined: Wed 12 Jul 2006, 01:58
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

#36 Post by WhoDo »

Lobster wrote:I would suggest (thinking back) that once decisions start to be implemented, we need to be with a project . . .

So . . .
Which version of Ezpup should we use?
or should we use the new themes in Dingo JWM as default?
If the community WANTS an IceWM facade, then EZpup-2.17R2 can be updated with wallpaper and stuff from EZpup-3.01 by unpacking it and moving it over. Just don't use the IceWM as it's Slackware-12 only.

Is that what you meant by being "with" the project? Like the Americans are often wont to say "Get with the program"? :P Very subtle, Lob. :wink:

Look, I've had my say. I'm not worried whether Robert agrees with my viewpoint or not. I wish he would coordinate more and control less, but that's me and not him.

Will I offer to front 3.02CE? Probably not, but that's not to say I won't help out. I'd like to see ttuuxxx, Leachim, Gray or Tronkel have a lash at that. All clearly know how to build Puppy from Unleashed. In Jack's (Tronkel's) case we first need to figure out why he can't build from Unleashed on his machine. We know it's not generic because Muppy-008, PuppyRus, and pcPuppyOS are all rebuilds of Puppy 3.01, presumably from Unleashed. Certainly so in the case of pcPuppyOS. I can't imagine Pizzasgood rebuilding with the remaster script alone on a paid job.

On the subject of Dingo, apart from testing it to your heart's content, my advice is to leave it alone. It is still in Alpha (6), so now is not the time to be looking toward fixing niggling usability bugs and bundling software when either may not yet have been "created"! When Barry releases Dingo Final we'll have a potential base for a Puppy-4.0xCE

Barry says 3.0x will continue alongside 4.0x. I have to believe he means what he says about that. In that case the 3.0x series needs the community to get behind it and look for bugs, fix any bugs it finds, select best-of- breed applications to include with a CE version and get on with the job of making it bullet-proof, beautiful and functional. Wow's gDesklets, MU's work on Muppy-008 (especially Build-a-Muppy), and Pizzasgood's development effort on pcPuppyOS are all going in that general direction. It just needs someone to hold the reins, pull it all together and offer up the results for testing. [Notice I said "hold the reins" and not "change horses" - sorry Robert, but I just couldn't resist! :twisted: ]
[i]Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't![/i]
SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com

User avatar
tronkel
Posts: 1116
Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2005, 11:27
Location: Vienna Austria
Contact:

#37 Post by tronkel »

WhoDo wrote:
In Jack's (Tronkel's) case we first need to figure out why he can't build from Unleashed on his machine.
What I had attempted there was to build a 3.01Retro iso from a normal 3.01 Unleashed framework. This attempt(s) produced an un-bootable iso.

Whether this is caused by something in Unleashed, or is as a result of my hardware setup, I've no idea. Anyone else tried this and found a similar problem?

AFAIK my system would in fact build a normal 3.01 OK. Must try that when I get a mo.

Must say though that my hardware doesn't like full 3.01. No sound for example. So difficult to test the build even if it's successful.

My even older Compaq AMD will run sound under 3.01 but the graphics are hopeless. Also too slow to crunch an unleashed build this side of eternity.

Time to get the shekels out and invest in something else. Pity there is no Walmart here so I could lay may hands on one of their Everex cheapos - ideal for running and buiding Puppies.
Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer

User avatar
Lobster
Official Crustacean
Posts: 15522
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
Location: Paradox Realm
Contact:

#38 Post by Lobster »

I'd like to see ttuuxxx, Leachim, Gray or Tronkel have a lash at that
Me too. Any possibility guys?

meanwhile . . .
Puppy is flexible, frisky even.
Talking Stick was to be based on 3.02
3.02 not available? OK
we move to what is possible.

I am now going to evolve the wiki
as it is a wiki
all help welcome
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/UsingThisWiki

8)
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

User avatar
ecomoney
Posts: 2178
Joined: Fri 25 Nov 2005, 07:00
Location: Lincolnshire, England
Contact:

Community Edition

#39 Post by ecomoney »

Whodo, I know of no "Origional 3.03CE Charter" that we are supposed to work to, save this one...the Puppy Linux Mission statement
* Puppy will easily install to USB, Zip or hard drive media.
* Booting from CD, Puppy will load totally into RAM so that the CD drive is then free for other purposes.
* Booting from CD, Puppy can save everything back to the CD, no need for a hard drive.
* Booting from USB, Puppy will greatly minimise writes, to extend the life of Flash devices indefinitely.
* Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies.
* Puppy will boot up and run extraordinarily fast.
* Puppy will have all the applications needed for daily use.
* Puppy will just work, no hassles.
* Puppy will breathe new life into old PCs
The task that was set for me was simply to create the best puppy possible that fits these aims.

My own personal choice of operating system would be ubuntu or one of its derivitives, but the reason I work on puppy is because there is a need for it. 98% of the world still run windows, and puppy give "linux newbs" an opportunity to try linux without risking messing up their current setup or giving them a massive learning curve and a drop in productivity.

Anyway, its obvious there is a lot of disagreement about using 2.14r as a CE base. Let me clarify how this best fits in with the mission statement.

Booting from CD, Puppy will load totally into RAM so that the CD drive is then free for other purposes.

To do this puppy needs to be SMALL. The ISO for 3.01 is 99mb, while the one for 2.14r is 90mb.

Booting from CD, Puppy can save everything back to the CD, no need for a hard drive/ * Booting from USB, Puppy will greatly minimise writes, to extend the life of Flash devices indefinitely.


Puppy does these well enough already (a pretty impressive puppy trick to new users), anyway, next are the real issues

Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies.

Notice this says "Linux Newbies" not linux developers. 98% of computer users out there are "linux newbies", that is, they have only ever used windows, an OS that has become so popular because it was simple to use by non-techies. This needs to change as its in no-ones long term interest that the internet, the domain of free speech, is controlled by a single bush-funding mega-corporation like Micro$oft. There are bigger issues out there than this one.

One of the main problems for new puppy users when they try it is that they cannot find their files, the things most important to them. 2.14r puts links on the desktop to all of the storage on their computers. This is obvious to them when they first boot. My experience is, if you get a new user to try puppy, you have about ten minutes to impress them. If they dont get instant gratification then they put puppy away and continue using windows. 2.14r also contains other useability enhancements (the classic automatic recovery back into Xwindows after powercut/improper shutdown). This point will be enhanced with the connections/windows files wizards that have been identified to be added to make the CE version thanks to leachim. 2.14r is THE friendliest version of puppy there is.

Puppy will boot up and run extraordinarily fast.

Because 2.14r is smaller, it is also faster to boot. When an OS is "fast", I always include the time taken to learn into account (see above point).

Puppy will have all the applications ne ... daily use.

Here is one of the real show-stoppers. Of all of the many versions of puppy, the 2.14/2.15 series has the biggest number of applications tested and working. Many are not be the latest versions, but they do 99% of the job that the latest ones do.


Puppy will just work, no hassles.

Another show-stopper. Dougal and Pakt, both extremely experienced puppy developers and contributors, have spent the last year ironing out the bugs in 2.14. I agree with whodo, this is hard work and drugery. Why bother to do this with 3.01, when its already been done with 2.14r, this is just duplication of effort? Another reason to use 2.14r is that its base of drivers is a lot more complete than any other puppy (this is a lot to do with the work already invested by Tempestious) . This means that a new user (which puppy is friendly towards) is a lot more likely to be able to boot puppy and have everything on his computer (sound/wireless/graphics) working. This will give them a positive first experience of linux, and they will be a lot more likely to go on and use it, and invest more time learning about it. Some of these users will go on to be developers....

Puppy will breathe new life into old PCs

Disposal of old PC's are big problem, they are polluting containing all kinds of trace metals, zinc, arsenic etc. New ones to replace them take a lot of energy to build and assemble. At the same time, a lot of people in the world cannot afford a new computer, and cannot take part in the new media and the growing "information society" (the "digital divide"). Old ones are available for free because a windows operating system is not available for them. Puppy fills that gap.

Puppy is aimed at older computers, therefore, to be most compatible with their hardware, they need to use older kernels and libraries. Puppy 2.14r has these. If someone has newer pc, and the latest apps, there are plenty of other distributions they can use.

WhoDo, Im saddened that, from you previous post, you seem to think that the decision to use 2.,14r was purely for my own benefit. With refernce to my new middle name. Ecomoney is a non profit company. It hasnt paid me a penny in the last three years. Its merely a mechanism where I can legally bill certain business and community organisations for our operating expenses so we can afford to do what we do. Ive been out giving demonstrations of puppy to businesses and working at the community centre cybercafe the last day and a half, and doing my books and accounts in time for the deadline. I have not been home, or I would have replied to your PM. Personally though I think that all discussion and opinion should be out in the open and expressed freely and respectfully.

Anyhow, all of this discussion is not getting a community edition built.. Lobster is right when he says that we have all of the parts together now and we should get on with assembly. I have asked Ttuxxx (an accomplished packer) to put together a few minor tweaks and app changes to 2.14r which he says he will be doing when he has a window in the next week from his work. Then I will be asking the various feature co-ordinators from the threads marked TS3.03ce to add their packages and wizards to this base. Ive cleared the decks in terms of my (ecomoney's) other work, and will be full-time on the job from now on until it is completed.
Last edited by ecomoney on Thu 31 Jan 2008, 19:49, edited 1 time in total.
Puppy Linux's [url=http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=296352#296352]Mission[/url]

Sorry, my server is down atm!

User avatar
alienjeff
Posts: 2265
Joined: Sat 08 Jul 2006, 20:19
Location: Winsted, CT - USA

#40 Post by alienjeff »

Lobster wrote:We are also at the stage were a project leader for a community edition based on Dingo is also required.
Regardless of development time invested thus far and the number of alpha versions run up the flagpole, Dingo is still in the alpha stage of its first version (ffs!). To start pushing a CE of the first version of Dingo is premature at best and foolhardy at worst. Such an endeavor at this time will be fraught with much of the same problems pushing a CE of an infant version of the 3.xx series has been.

Does anyone else note the peculiarity of v2.15CE being bookended by adjacent version CEs - official or otherwise?
[size=84][i]hangout:[/i] ##b0rked on irc.freenode.net
[i]diversion:[/i] [url]http://alienjeff.net[/url] - visit The Fringe
[i]quote:[/i] "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker[/size]

Post Reply