Puppy's Website: Discussion

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tombh
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#21 Post by tombh »

I've set up another thread -- Puppy Website: Looks, Bugs and Wishlists -- and renamed this thread to "Puppy Website: Discussion". Don't worry about choosing the right thread, they definitely overlap I know, but it might just help keep things a bit more organised. To start things off on the other thread I've made a list of the current suggestions and answered a few practical points.

So to give an idea of the kind of things we can discuss on this thread I'll briefly outline the ideal Puppy Website!

The ideal Puppy Website will have a design that is simple, yet professional, unique, yet welcoming. There will only be one official community site, it will include the forum and only require one username. It will have a full-time administrator and be hosted by a professional, secure and helpful hosting solution. It will always be up to date and inspire regular contributions from Puppy enthusiasts.

Now, all that may not be possible! But, what I do know is that we already have here everything that is needed to make, at the very least, one unit of improvement to the current situation -- in the sense that more than one person has come forward to freely offer what they can to the project. But of course we should be able to improve things by more than one unit! So the question is what is a sensible goal to aim for?

My current proto-site is, in a way, my answer to that question, though it makes some assumptions which really need to be tied down to actual people, numbers and resources. I think it would good to, as far as is possible, find out who is willing to contribute something. It doesn't matter what or how much someone can contribute as long as they are able to commit to that. For instance, I know that WhoDo is willing to offer leadership on the project and even though he has not coded any HTML has been of invaluable support to me so far. Also forum member prit1 has been contributing his web programming skills and is learning Drupal.

The other considerations that come to mind are;
*As nic2109 suggested, who and how many are willing/able to take on admin roles and learn a little bit about Drupal?
*Current manual maintainers. I think it is seriously worth thinking about creating a "Manual Editor" role on Drupal that allows a manual to be maintained and updated on-site. Is anyone really willing to do that?
*Is pupplinux.org hosted with the same sorry excuse for a hosting service that Barry uses for his blog? Are they really the best people to invest all our hard work in? What other hosting solutions are there?

Caneri
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#22 Post by Caneri »

@klu9,
agreed...one site to rule the roost so to speak and be "official" and secure!!..with mirrors for each continent as in one for North America, one for east Asia/Australia,one for South America and one for European countries so users have a somewhat local connection to Puppy with a common interface and common updates.

@Thomas,

I wanted a professional to handle security and the like for months now and have emailed and pm'd to various puppy people..the problem is how to pay a pro and which pro to use. I have delved into this a bit as my intention for puppylinux.ca is along the lines of your design.

My project from the start was to provide space and bandwidth...not a new web page for users. My server will be available for whatever fills the need of the direction this is taking.

My opinion is, this direction is a must have. Well done.

Eric
[color=darkred][i]Be not afraid to grow slowly, only be afraid of standing still.[/i]
Chinese Proverb[/color]

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tombh
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#23 Post by tombh »

@Oblivious:
Puppy linux is blah blah and was created by Barry Kauler. Barry maintains his own site (link). Puppy is such a corker [...] For further info about the site, contact xxxxx.
I think that paragraph was spot on! I wish I had had something like that to introduce me into the world of Puppy! We are, after all, designing the 'front door' here.

@Caneri: So are you offering your server as a possible host for the website? I'm sure it could handle the bandwidth, but that's quite a lot of responsibility to take on, on your part. There's the keeping up to date with security patches, regular backups, do you have PHP and MySQL installed too? Then we would also need to redirect puppylinux.org on DNS.
The other option is choosing another hosting provider, they are relatively inexpensive, I know that in the UK, a hosting package to suit Puppy's needs wouldn't cost more than £50 a year.

@Community: There has been a lot of good feedback, but does anyone have any feelings the other way? Any concerns, doubts, etc. Your contributions would be very welcome.
And generally, if there is anyone out there who doesn't feel it's there place or that their thoughts don't amount to much, then please don't let that stop you. Just because you've never posted before doesn't mean that your thoughts don't count!

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#24 Post by Caneri »

Hi Thomas,

My host is pretty much full featured with php5,database,Drupal,Joomla,Photogallery software from Coppermine etc etc.

One good thing about my server is it's located in Canada which means there is no country in the world that is banned from access.

I also find the support quite good. I have always had a solution to problems.
Look here
http://www.netfirms.ca/web-hosting/web- ... -business/

This is my setup...and it's a Linux server which is good. Click on applications on demand for a list of software available.

Eric
[color=darkred][i]Be not afraid to grow slowly, only be afraid of standing still.[/i]
Chinese Proverb[/color]

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LOF
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#25 Post by LOF »

Hi guys.

I'm loving this discussion and feel it is a really iportant one to be having for this community. I think that what we really all seem to want is continuity. We want all the various sites to fuse together in one big place so that the brand new user and the experienced community member alike can get what they need. My opinion is that we need a site wide header/menu that would carry across to all apsects of the community.

See below a quick mockup of what I mean:

Wiki Home:
Image

Forums Home:
Image

Case example: Think how the Ubuntu wiki (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/) header/tabs work. You always know how to get everywhere else.

What do people think?
Cheers,

[b]LOF[/b]
:D

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#26 Post by Caneri »

Hi LOF,

yup...my sentiments exactly.

Eric
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Chinese Proverb[/color]

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#27 Post by Lobster »

What do people think?
If that top bar can be hidden or rolled up
and it does not slow too much for dial up
seems great 8)
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#28 Post by darrelljon »

Loving it, or should that be LOFing it.

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session or cookie flag

#29 Post by raffy »

I like it, too. :)

Using this feature means a page modification for all Puppy sites (wiki, forum, blog), and autohide would require the addition of a session/cookie flag and a Hide/Unhide button. Did I miss the code by LOF?

Added: Maybe "Support" will be better than "Shop", where we list willing Puppians in different continents?
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ttuuxxx
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#30 Post by ttuuxxx »

To tell you the truth I like the Fedora Layout better.
http://fedoraproject.org/
like the little arrows on the left table cell.
ttuuxxx

Plus the nifty language bar. Is really nice for other locales
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Pizzasgood
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#31 Post by Pizzasgood »

Using this feature means a page modification for all Puppy sites
Not if you used frames. Then you could have the new site incorporate all the others without changing them at all. Plus, that way people who want nothing to do with it can just keep using the addresses to the actual forum/blog/wiki/whatever and not get a frame shoved down their throats, and without needing cookies to "save" the setting.

On the down side, using a frame would mean you get that much less viewing space, since you can't just scroll away from them. I didn't work with frames for very long back in my web-coding days, so I don't know if it's possible to set up a chunk of javascript to 'collapse' a frame by resizing it. If it is, that would be cool. I know that the frames can be set as manually resizable as long as you don't make the border invisible. That's a little ugly though, unless you can apply style-sheets to them. I got into CSS after I stopped using frames so I'm not sure if you can do that. I know you can use CSS on forms and such, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyways, as a worst case scenario there could be a link on the upper part that sends you to the actual page without using frames, like Google Images uses. And every browser I've ever used also supports right-clicking and choosing "view this frame only" or some such thing.
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LOF
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#32 Post by LOF »

Did I miss the code by LOF?
Nope. That was only a mockup. If people want then I'll code something nicer as a 100px frame or so. Frames are the bane of many web developers though and are discouraged by many. But it seems that this might be the best way of going about it.

Frame code would probably be as follows:

Code: Select all

<html>
 <frameset rows="100px,100%">
   <frame src="frame1.htm">
   <frame src="frame2.htm">
 </frameset>
</html>
Obviously a homepage like tombh's site would still be required for everything to come back to.

To add my own personal experience, I found Puppy hard to get info on to start with, as it was impossible to keep up with the latest stuff here when only really using the wiki. Some huge glorified rss feed would be great to keep up with the latest news and announcements (think LatestNews wiki page on steroids).

@ttuuxxx - the fedora menu is very aesthetic and minimalistic but would work better as a top menu rather than a side one. We all much prefer scrolling down to scrolling left and right. Great design though.
Cheers,

[b]LOF[/b]
:D

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headfound
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#33 Post by headfound »

There is a CSS frame example right here -

http://www.cssplay.co.uk/layouts/frame.html

each page must have the frame coded to work though. Is there any way of getting a php script to grab (for example) the pages called from this forum and dynamically sticking the css on top so the end user just clicks the forum link and its done?
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#34 Post by Lobster »

One way to set up a news type environment (similar to digg.com)
is Pligg
http://www.pligg.com/

It is easy to set up (even I have done it) 8)
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SirDuncan
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#35 Post by SirDuncan »

Frames would not necessarily be required to achieve that effect without page modification. PHP should be able to do it, and you could still scroll down and away from it. The trick would be writing the code that changes all of the links on included pages to point to the PHP version of the page instead of the normal one. I'm afraid my knowledge of PHP is not great enough to do that without some research.

I personally think that we need to move all of the main Puppy pages to a central server so that we have an easier time dealing with security. While we are at it, we might as well re-do the sites and combine them. I guess I prefer to stick with what Tom is already doing.
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#36 Post by Pizzasgood »

Frames are the bane of many web developers though and are discouraged by many.
I didn't mind them as a developer, but I generally hate them as a user. Thus why I eventually stopped using them.
Frames would not necessarily be required to achieve that effect without page modification. PHP should be able to do it, and you could still scroll down and away from it. The trick would be writing the code that changes all of the links on included pages to point to the PHP version of the page instead of the normal one. I'm afraid my knowledge of PHP is not great enough to do that without some research.
I don't know if that would work with the forum very well though. I think it would be fine for viewing it as a guest, but logging in and posting would probably be tricky.

Of course, I have no problem with keeping the forum separate. I prefer it this way really. If I were in charge of all of this, I'd just add a link up at the top that points to the main page, and otherwise leave the forum how and where it is now.
I personally think that we need to move all of the main Puppy pages to a central server so that we have an easier time dealing with security. While we are at it, we might as well re-do the sites and combine them. I guess I prefer to stick with what Tom is already doing.
I agree with that with the exception of the forum and maybe Barry's blog. You don't want your eggs scattered willy-nilly, but you don't want them all in the same basket either. Besides the security hazard, having a bunch of eggs in one basket makes that basket pretty heavy.
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#37 Post by SirDuncan »

Pizzasgood wrote:I don't know if that would work with the forum very well though. I think it would be fine for viewing it as a guest, but logging in and posting would probably be tricky.
I wasn't even considering the forum. That would be a real trick.
Pizzasgood wrote:I agree with that with the exception of the forum and maybe Barry's blog. You don't want your eggs scattered willy-nilly, but you don't want them all in the same basket either. Besides the security hazard, having a bunch of eggs in one basket makes that basket pretty heavy.
I definitely agree about the forum. Besides the too-many-eggs issue, moving the forum would be a major task, and we haven't had any major security issues here. Why mess with what works?

As for the blog, even if it doesn't get combined into the site, it needs moved to a different host. Servage appears to completely compromised, and they aren't doing anything about it.
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#38 Post by HairyWill »

Before you talk about moving (or not) Barry's blog, website, wiki and John Murga's forum it might make sense to talk to them.

Barry seems to have had a lot of trouble with blogs over the past year. If someone was to offer to maintain a blog for me I would be grateful (as long as I maintained full control)
Will
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tombh
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#39 Post by tombh »

So to summarise there seems to be some consensus concerning both security and continuity.

Security
In terms of improved security we have been kindly offered the option of Caneri's server.

Continuity
The main sites involved are the; main website, wiki, developer's blog, forum and manual. In terms of continuity we have a number of options --

(1)Frames
PROS:
*simplicity
*easy maintenance
*no need to move great lumps of data about the internet
*freedom of choice for users
CONS:
*frames unreliably integrate with browser history and bookmarking.

(2)PHP-ification (okay I made that word up!)
BRIEF: This basically involves having a centralised CSS design somewhere on the internet. Either, a site is programmed to get this design from a centralised location OR the centralised location is programmed to get the contents of the individual site and output it as part of its own. The reasoning behind a centralised design is that if ever a change was made to the design it would take effect instantly across all the sites without any extra work.
PROS:
*rich-man's frames -- i.e. many of the advantages of frames but without the inherent cons
*from a design perspective there would be more scope for a tighter and cleaner stylistic integration.
CONS:
*each site would need some coding thus requiring the consent and involvement of each maintainer
*users would effectively be loading two websites incurring compound download delays

(3)All sites on one server
PROS:
*frames for the gods ;) -- i.e. all the advantages of frames and PHP-ification but without either of their inherent cons.
*Not only would all the sites be under the control of one server but they could also be under the control of one CMS, one user database and one cookie/session.
CONS:
*all our eggs in one basket
*requires not only significant individual commitments but also significant commitments to work together
*large amounts of data would need to be moved across the internet and some of it would need to be manipulated (eg Wikka Wiki to Drupal 5)

Postscript
Firstly, I feel that the Developer's Blog is a seperate issue (see this post in the beginning of the thread) and should not be considered in our plans for continuity unless explicitly directed by Barry himself.

Also I think that the forum is really a whole other task in itself, certainly a very important and feasible one, but one that I don't think would be sensible to commit to at the moment. As Hairywill suggests, first we would need to discuss it with John Murga and then we would need someone who was willing to give the task individual attention -- which I might be able to do one day, but not at the same time as making a Puppy website. However, just to wet your appetite, there is a well-maintained phpBB module for Drupal.

My own personal preference for the continuity solution is number (3). The reason for this is not so much because of the technologies involved but because it is fundamentally reliant on a deeper meaning of continuity -- namely that continuity is a reflection of the willingness of the community to work together. For me it is this, above anything else, that will bring continuity to Puppy's web presence. In this way I'm sure we'll hardly even have to think about continuity as it will just happen by itself.

I also just want to make a brief point about the proto-site that I made. Even though it is up there on the verge of becoming a fully functional site, I'm willing to start over -- if that's what's needed! When I first started thinking about this project I wanted to be very careful about how I approached it, on the one had I knew that the community had to be involved, yet on the other I understood that if I was to offer my services I needed to prove that I was not merely in the realms of great ideas, I needed to have something to prove that I meant, and could do, business! So that's why the proto-site is there, it is just as much an example of what is possible as a token and expression of my willingness and enthusiasm.

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#40 Post by HairyWill »

I think this project needs doing but the social/organisational issues are just as hard as the technical ones

Here is a list of a number of puppy websites/repositories (apologies to anyone I have missed)

http://www.dotpups.de
http://www.puppylinux.ca
http://www.puppy-linux.info
http://rhinoweb.us
http://www.puppylinux.net
http://puptrix.org
http://www.murga-linux.com
http://home.no.net/zigbert/downloaders
http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/wmd04r/puppy
http://www.giovelug.org
http://www.puppylover.netsons.org
http://www.puptrix.org
http://www.grafpup.org
http://www.minipc.org
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/grafpup-77
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/puppy-71
http://www.erikveen.dds.nl/qemupuppy
http://openlab.jp/puppylinux
http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com
http://www.moulinier.net
http://www.lin-web.be
http://hi.baidu.com/puppylinux
http://e-pup.5d6d.com
http://www.hacao.com
http://digilander.libero.it/puppylinuxitalia
http://www.tmxxine.com
http://www.puppyrus.forum24.ru
http://www.ecomoney.eu
http://edupup.pieroni.biz
http://fabionicolascabrera.es.tl
http://www.puppyrus.ru
http://www.ecomoney.co.uk
http://micro-hard.homelinux.net/puppy
http://www.ttuuxxx.com

under Barry's control I think
http://puppylinux.com
http://puppylinux.org
ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/puppylinux/

dead sites which probably still get hits
how much valuable information was lost with these
http://www.puppyos.com
http://www.zen45800.zen.co.uk/puppy3/index.htm

If one/you/we want a single portal the people maintaining many of these sites need to be asked very nicely to stop compounding the perceived problem. These contributers to the global understanding of the monster that is puppy might find it actually less effort to maintain their contribution if it was in a shared space. That being said they will also have to share editorial control of their content, free and independent thinkers as we are this may not come easily.

we need
- stable easy to navigate repositories preferably multiple identical (load balanced) mirrors. Ideally these will allow uploads from a number of individuals who have earned their stripes and are willing to take responsibility for any software they contribute (maintainer if you will)

- wiki space that we all feel happy to contribute to

- easy to understand, conflict free, version relevant documentation that can be easily maintained and rolled forward to the next version without losing the last

- It would also be nice to be able to hold our own repository for source code. Currently their are large amounts of original source and programs stored as attachments to the murga-forum. Should the forum disappear overnight the community would have great fun reassembling it. John has done an excellent job of providing this forum, I have no reason to believe anything catastrophic will happen to it, it just strikes me as poor contingency planning.

Who will hold the keys? I don't trust anybody else but me ;-)

Sorry for the indigestibly long post, Merry Christmas, peace on earth and goodwill to all (wo)men.
Last edited by HairyWill on Fri 14 Mar 2008, 05:55, edited 3 times in total.
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