Back to Windows for me

Puppy related raves and general interest that doesn't fit anywhere else
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nap44
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Back to Windows for me

#1 Post by nap44 »

Hello,

I’ve been following the development of Linux distros for as while now, particularly those distros that run from a CD drive, with a view to changing over completely from XP.

My equipment is fairly standard. I have a 3yo P4 with 1gig ram and a Gigabyte GA=8S661FXM-775 motherboard, 160gig HDD and an external 250gig usb HDD. In addition, there are 4xUSB sticks and a 19

Sage
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#2 Post by Sage »

An excellent example of life's biggest lesson: learning to ask the right questions.
Still true today that those taking the king's shilling stand a good chance of getting shot!
Begin by asking why all the HW runs in XP?!
At the end of the day, folks who bolster criminal companies deserve to be locked away themselves. Better they send their $500 to charity.

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#3 Post by oblivious »

I thought that what this guy has to say was interesting and agree with a lot of it: Linux is NOT Windows
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

The free distros are not consumer products - the developer has done something to suit their own needs. It's great if it also suits somebody else, if it doesn't suit you, well you've got what you've paid for. (If you buy a jumper at the shops, you get to try it on, choose your colour and take it back if there's something wrong with it - it's a consumer product. If your nanna knits you a jumper and it's too big or it's a lurid orange which you don't like, you've got 2 choices - wear it anyway, or don't. Linux is nanna's jumper - she might have come up with a nice aran that fits, or it might be some fairisle in pink and purple that you don't like and think is better suited to polishing the car. You can buy a pattern for a jumper you'd like, buy the wool and pay nanna to knit you another one, but you don't get to criticize her choice of gift).

Much of whether your system works with existing equipment is just luck. I have a HP printer, which worked with all distros I've looked at. I've got a new printer, and it's drivers aren't in there. So, the experience of someone with my other printer is "oh great, it just works", with my new printer "oh, what a pain, what do I do now?". Everything works in this computer, on my new computer lots doesn't work. You'd like automount, I wouldn't. Everybody has different equipment and preferences. You can't really expect them to be catered for by everybody (and windows hasn't catered for everything in vista, and what is catered for has been achieved by dictating to hardware manufacturers)

What you want is available to you - pay someone to set up and maintain a system for you. Buy equipment known to work. Or, learn linux and be in the position to fix, tweak and develop yourself. Alternatively, one of the paid distros might offer what you want, as you'd be entitled to support. (Have you looked at Freespire? That seems to have everything but the Out house sink, you can get the paid version which presumably comes with support. )
Problems that have been fixed in a past release are again introduced in a newer version
Ever heard of Vista? :lol: :lol: :lol: Developers can always dream up some new problems to inflict on people and charge them for the "privilege".
they do provide a stable and easy to use system which just works.
Stable? What about monthly updates to fix all of the hacker loopholes? Easy to use? I don't think so - why would you have to open a program to find a startup command when you've already turned it off in the startup configuration? Why would fonts that you've changed in a document keep reverting to a "style" you've never chosen and don't want? There are lots of things that are just nuts, but I've adapted to using them - it doesn't make them easy. Windows is also only easy to use for me because I've been using it for 20-odd years - I couldn't hope to have an equivalent level of familiarity with something I've been dabbling in for 6 months. Ask someone who has been using linux for 20 years and they'd probably say it is easy. (It seems to me from what I've seen of the fundamentals, that linux is easier - it's only hard for me because it's unfamiliar, and I'm stupid with computer things.)

I like the opportunity to have an alternative to Microsoft's monopoly products. So what if it comes with a bit of effort and frustration?

muggins
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#4 Post by muggins »

work seamlessly like windows
I almost choked on my porridge! Twice in the last few months I've had to reinstall a neighbour's HP printer, after 'doze lost it's configuration.

My own seamless windows experience is why I use puppy.

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#5 Post by Lobster »

Muggins try sweet banana, raisins and cinnamon with honey in your porridge - Just had that - choke free . . .
One can only hope Linux will eventually be as good and just work
I have been using Xandros on the Eeepc and it does just work.
However I do understand your frustration. I rate XP very highly. It has problems too (5 minute load up is quite common after security is added)

Personally I would have XP on the hard drive and run Puppy from CD
- I did this for a while and just stopped using XP

Each to their own :)
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WhoDo
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Re: Back to Windows for me

#6 Post by WhoDo »

nap44 wrote:I’m very disappointed that Linux has been unkind to me as I have been promoting it to my friends. However on sampling, they have encountered the very same roadblocks that I have and to a man have ditched it and returned to the comfort of Windows. One can only hope Linux will eventually be as good and just work.
Hmmmm....sounds like you may be a candidate for Linux-XP! Try this link: http://www.linux-xp.com/

The only positive, here, is that you were happiest with Puppy which is a FUN project,and an EXPERIMENTAL distribution not intended for widespread professional desktop use.

The fact that Puppy comes closer than anything to your "ideal" is due largely to the hard work of the developers and community who actually stick around here and contribute, instead of whining and crawling back under Bill's "protective" wing when things don't go quite the way they'd planned. Think about that the next time a virus or trojan wipes your system or the multiple layers of anti-virus protection slow your XP to a crawl, despite the P4 with 1Gb RAM.

The good news is that when you realise what a terrible mistake you're making, and remember why you were trying Linux to begin with, we'll still be here ready to welcome you back into the fold.
Last edited by WhoDo on Fri 11 Apr 2008, 11:07, edited 1 time in total.
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#7 Post by muggins »

I was windows-free for the last few years, but on the current model, winXP came pre-installed. I left it on because I was enrolled in some course, where it was sort of obligatory, but I rarely ever use it. I think I've been puppified, and find certain XP traits absolutely annoying, and just painful to use.

Whereas, I suppose with nap44, the opposite is the case.

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MU
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#8 Post by MU »

There are issues with Puppy or Linux in general.
It would be foolish to deny that.

But just don't forget one thing:
while you pay every license of Windows you use, this is not the case with Linux.
So for companies it is more difficult to make money, hence they can engage not as many developers.

This makes clear, that less new hardware is supported than for Windows.
But old hardware often works much better than with Windows.
Using a free system you do not pay for, requires some more recherche when you buy new hardware, to check if it is supported.
Do not go in a discounter, and buy whatever you see.
Instead, if you like a product, go home first, and check in the web, if you find many articles indicating problems or success.

Puppy is even more "somewhat different", because it is optimized for speed and size.
So it does not use the shared mime info database as "the big ones" do, but a stripped down version with a "incompatible" technique based on Rox-Filer Mime-types.

I see that as a problem, and the puplett Muppy 008.3 will use the shared mime info database.
But Muppy also is much larger than Puppy.
You must decide: a high-speed miniature-system, OR a super comfortable system, that will require somewhat faster hardware.

Cups 1.3.5::
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=25919

Webcam:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 623#183623

Mark
[url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=173456#173456]my recommended links[/url]

cthisbear
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#9 Post by cthisbear »

Some of this, possibly much of this is fair comment.
But as I re-install, repair XP just a bit....
I feel that some comments are a little high handed.

When your drives die..Windows won't save you..
Goodbye data...unless you have a Live CD of Puppy.
Unremovable viruses...Puppy.
Unwanted updates that stop you booting...MS.
Unwanted spying on your activities...thanks Microsoft.
Dead - dying drives can still run with Puppy installed.

Overpriced overbloated software....MS.
Where's Windows 98 1st Edition....buggy.
98 SE....had a bug at the start....Bill would not call it that,
so didn't he put out a supplemental repair?
98 only worked bug free with 98 Lite...another fiendish Aussie.
Windows NT4?...first patch 203 megs....unheard of then.
Windows Me....Windows what?

..................
A Logitech Quickcam family webcam and a Canon Pixma MP160 printer completes the setup.
All this runs happily using XP.

And a lot of webcams were dogs in XP.
No software seemed to work. Flaky at best.
..........................
Windows XP on the other hand has not failed once to install and run a program.

Don't do a search on that one.....
awesome and woeful might be interchangeable.
............................
Recent Sony Vaio laptop...Sound died on old install
and no way could I fix it..
How many hours looking for that?
So sound driver was the first thing I installed, in fresh XP....
Failure..drivers supposedly install...but in space no one could hear me
scream.....at Sony.

Kept the old Windows install...aka Puppy,
pointed update driver to that and magic happened.
Had all the drivers that Sony won't put out on the net
because of Puppycopying hdden parttion.
...........................

(If you buy a jumper at the shops, you get to try it on,
choose your colour and take it back if there's something
wrong with it - it's a consumer product.

Yeah! But not if it's microsoft.
Vista ready....see your local lawyer...
sue today as hardware is throwaway.
..............................

Twice in the last few months I've had to reinstall a neighbour's
HP printer, after 'doze lost it's configuration.

HP works wonders on an Acer laptop too....if it works.
Can you get a basic small download driver?
Dream on.
.......................
The good news is that when you realise what a terrible mistake you're making, and remember why you were trying Linux to begin with,
we'll still be here ready to welcome you back into the fold.

Yeah! baby.

......................
And don't let your hardware die and install XP on something else....you are
regarded as a Pirate..... OEM systems?
Give uncle Bill some more of your hard earned cash.

BK is out in his mansion at Penjorie...
feeling your pain whilst he counts your donations.
You were right to move on....moan on?

Chris.

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capoverde
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#10 Post by capoverde »

Every time one faces a new situation, some learning is needed: but some like learning, others don't. Problems are everywhere in life, not just in Linux or Windows (yes, there are in Windows too) and sticking to what's already well known is the common choice, as it avoids the need to learn more: that's perfectly understandable and legitimate. Thus, if one feels he's getting what he wants from a given system, he'll rightly stick to it. Why should he go for alternatives?

[quote]As much as we criticise Microsoft, they do provide a stable and easy to use system which just works.[/quote]

But the fact is, Microsoft *do not* provide a stable and easy to use system which just works! I can well understand (alas!) why Muggins almost choked :lol:

Ever tried to open, in Word, a .doc file you made the day before just to get a refusal, and later discover that the file is quite OK and is opened regularly by Open Office; then, after being saved again, that same file is finally accepted by Word?
Ever lost half an hour installing some device driver which some day, unpredictably, stops working correctly and never will again, unless you go for a full reinstall of Windows? Etc. etc. etc.

By comparison, Barry's Puppy is solid as iron rock -- no, not perfect or without problems. If that's what one looks for, he'll better realize that, sadly, there's no such thing...

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#11 Post by Sage »

Anyone for an interesting EULA read? Got a lawyer for a son/daughter?

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#12 Post by oblivious »

Anyone for an interesting EULA read?
Not Vista, perchance?

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hillside
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#13 Post by hillside »

And then, there are others who will never go back.

I'm no computer guru, but by keeping my eyes open and paying attention, I've been able to make several versions of Linux operate quite nicely. Puppy is, so far, my favorite and the one I use most.

It's a serious enough operating system that I run my business on it. Word processing, spreadsheet, and even the OO database are more than adequate enough for me to do all the work that I need. It's NOT perfect, but it's very good and nothing that I've found yet is perfect -- including Windows.

Granted, my business is what you would call a micro business where my wife and I are the only employees, and we both have other part time jobs to make ends meet, but the tax collectors still say I have to run things like a real business, and Puppy makes that happen.

What I like, and this is really the thing that keeps me with Puppy, is that I can re-use old equipment. It's illegal to put old electronics in the landfill around here, so I don't suppose I'm doing any huge environmental thing, but I think it's still worthwhile. Waste not, want not.

nap44
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#14 Post by nap44 »

Hi again,

Didn’t mean to offend anyone. Just trying to voice my frustration when I spend days trying to get what I consider fairly basic things to work in Linux, when in Windows they are up and running in minutes. My experience! Maybe I’ve been spoilt or just damn impatient. Or both.

Oblivious gave me a heads up with his reference to Freespire and I’ve had a look at the site a few hours ago. Professional and very well laid out explanations and definitions . Learn’t more from reading info on this site today than I have in bumbling around in the Linux forums during the past few months. Don’t get me wrong. The info is there in the forums but it is in the form of addressing answers to problems rather than encyclopedic style like the Freespire site.

I think what is getting to me is that from a new user’s viewpoint, answers to questions are very cryptic. Assumes that you have a good working knowledge of Linux, which I don’t. Just following the answer trail is sometimes a minefield in itself.

For instance, the answer to a question might be just a link. So you click on the link only to be confronted by an even more cryptic solution with an explanation that is in developer speak. You sit at the screen reading over and over the given solution and wondering to yourself “now what does that mean

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#15 Post by oblivious »

Oblivious gave me a heads up with his reference to Freespire and I’ve had a look at the site a few hours ago.
I've never actually looked at the Freespire site, but the program itself is very slick and glossy and looks like it might have ironed out a lot of hardware issues (as I understand it it is the testing version of a paid-for version). Xandros is also paid for, I think. Those slick, paid versions may be more along the lines of what you are expressing a wish for (and probably come with support).

I feel the same frustration about trying to find answers and "how-tos". There is a lot of information on the net, but a lot isn't useful. But if you give up, you never find out. If you persevere, even if you get discouraged and put it aside from time to time when it all seems too much, you learn something, even if you don't achieve what you want in the short term (if ever). I just think of it as a process (learning) rather than an objective (getting something working), then I don't get as annoyed when I can't do it.

I don't think that Puppy will ever be a slick, glossy, distro - why would Barry be interested in sitting there trying to figure out how to include drivers for my new printer, or somebody else's new do-dad? What's in it for him (and how would he do it anyway - spend his own money to buy 500 printers to see if they all work)? He'd be far more interested in working out <insert some new technical thing that I don't understand>. :lol:

But that's Puppy's appeal - it doesn't have all of that annoying pretentious stuff. It might poo on the carpet but it's cute and can sit and roll over some of the time if it's in the mood. Much more fun than some perfectly trained dog at a dog show.

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#16 Post by WhoDo »

oblivious wrote:But that's Puppy's appeal - it doesn't have all of that annoying pretentious stuff. It might poo on the carpet but it's cute and can sit and roll over some of the time if it's in the mood. Much more fun than some perfectly trained dog at a dog show.
:lol: Well my Puppy's house trained, so the carpets stay nice and clean! He's still a puppy, though, and FUN is his middle name. :lol:
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#17 Post by Pizzasgood »

You'd like automount, I wouldn't. Everybody has different equipment and preferences. You can't really expect them to be catered for by everybody
That's the whole point. He wants the OPTION to auto-mount. Just one little check-box next to each drive, defaulted to noauto. Then both sides can have their way.

I think that's something we should have.

As Bruce B mentioned in another thread, Rox Filer will read the /etc/fstab file and automatically mount any mountpoints you click on, and prompt to unmount them when you leave. Puppy could be set up to automatically add the needed data to /etc/fstab, and the check boxes could toggle the relevant field in that file.


@nap44: Part of the problem is that there are so many things that could be improved. Barry can't work on everything at once. If he only released when every single item was fixed, he'd never release it. Instead, he makes releases after he's finished a significant item or three. I don't know if you ever used Puppy 0.98. Things have improved a lot since then. Sure, there's still a good deal that could be improved, and it will be. Just not all at once.

And yes, if you want to fix something that's broken in Linux, you need to know a little about it. It's actually the exact same in MS-world, except you usually paid for your software so you can go back and make the people you paid fix it for you.


As for oblivious's comment about what is easier, I agree. I've only been using Linux for three years or so, but I already find Windows much more difficult to use. Mainly because I get used to the Linux ways of doing things and find that they don't work in Windows. Which is the same thing that happens for new Linux users, but in reverse.


You mentioned how well Windows has been running, and acknowledged that you run special utilities to keep it nice. That signifies that you've learned enough to figure out what needs to be done to keep it working. Well, the same thing applies to Linux. It takes time to learn how to deduce what a problem is and where to look for a solution. Eventually it starts to click.


Of course, if you don't want to spend that time, by all means go back to Windows. Even though I'd like to cook my own food every day, I don't have the time, so instead I eat at a dining hall. Same thing as Linux vs. Windows really. Making my own food would be a little healthier and a lot better tasting, and probably cheaper. The biggest difference is that my dining hall isn't attempting to take over the world or make life difficult for people who cook for themselves. :lol:
Last edited by Pizzasgood on Sat 12 Apr 2008, 02:31, edited 1 time in total.
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#18 Post by scotto_puppy »

I have read every word of nap44's excellent dissertation and I have to agree with much of what he has to say. BUT: Puppy is a free distribution, written and maintained by enthusiasts, and in the main works wonderfully. As such, it fills the bill for me.

I have an EEE which runs XP on the primary partition and boots to Puppy on the SD by pressing ESC as it loads. I find myself using puppy more than XP and would dearly love to use Puppy as my primary os. However - no support for my usb wireless modem (yes I have read the forums but it is all too difficult for the likes of me) and no support for my favourite voip software.

So - I hug my pup daily for it's speed and freedom but I cling to my Microsoft OS for it's stability.

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#19 Post by cthisbear »

When you get back to XP you can post when you complete
this game of Freecell............number 1941.

By the time you solve it Puppy should have a better version.

Chris.

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#20 Post by WhoDo »

cthisbear wrote:When you get back to XP you can post when you complete
this game of Freecell............number 1941.

By the time you solve it Puppy should have a better version.

Chris.
2.5 minutes? Hmmm... Better Be Home Soon lasted longer :P
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