The LINUX BARRIER: Dial Up Modems

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Flash
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#41 Post by Flash »

The only thing I can think of that might do that is if the Linux community began a campaign of writing (respectful) letters and emails to modem manufacturers, asking them to provide Linux drivers for their hardware.

Sage
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#42 Post by Sage »

100% correct, rarsa.
The other correspondents are either misguided or not listening.
If you use a SW modem, it also soaks up cpu cycles causing a decline in overall performance.
Toys!

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sling-shot
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#43 Post by sling-shot »

jcoder24 wrote:
sling-shot wrote: But you have mentioned that it may be dangerous to use it.
Can you post the link that mentions it being dangerous? It was prob. so long ago that I forgot I said it.
Although it is irresponsible of me to say i cant remember where exactly i read that, it is indeed true. Actually that is the only thing i remember reading in that thread. on second thought i feel may be it was not your post .. ?
Apologies
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#44 Post by puppian »

It seems that two very different things are being discussed here.

The first one is from the user's point of view. I think it is completely OK for one user to advise another user to buy a new modem (or other hardware) if the existing one doesn't work. That's nothing wrong with that (thou the new user who are desperate for help may be disappointed :))

The second one is from Puppy's or the developer's point of view. A successful OS won't (and shouldn't) tell its users to buy a new piece of hardware just to use the OS. Otherwise that OS will never become successful (you can't detect my hardware? then I will use another OS that can). If you want people to use your OS, it should have better hardware detection than its competitor. And I think Puppy is doing a great job at that.

IMO the reason for starting this thread is to help Puppy (and Barry) to do that even better and I can't think of any reason for anyone to object that. I admit that it's difficult to get some hardware, winmodem especially, to work in Linux (for different reasons like the 'market forces' mentioned by rarsa, etc), and that's already stated in the topic (The LINUX BARRIER: Dial Up Modems). But I believe no matter how difficult a thing is, there's still something that can be done. For example, at least for hardware/modem that HAS Linux drivers availble, they should be made to work out of the box (I know Barry is already trying very hard at that, but the time one person has is limited :))

In short, I don't see any conflicts between the different points of view above.
Sage wrote:The other correspondents are either misguided or not listening.
If you use a SW modem, it also soaks up cpu cycles causing a decline in overall performance.
Toys!
I know "it also soaks up cpu cycles causing a decline in overall performance", but as long as it's working on my Windows, I won't consider it as a toy :) Again, I think it's OK to tell someone that his/her hardware is not the best out there (the user's point of view). However, for Puppy to be successful, it shouldn't (and has never :)) tell its users: hey your printer (modem, monitor, etc) is a low quality one and so we are not supporting it! (the OS point of view)

Hope the above make some sense :)
Last edited by puppian on Sun 23 Oct 2005, 17:42, edited 1 time in total.
[url=http://puppylinux.org]Puppylinux.org - Community home page of Puppy Linux[/url] hosted by Barry (creator of Puppy), created and maintained by the [url=http://puppylinux.org/user/readarticle.php?article_id=8]Puppy Linux Foundation[/url] since 2005

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#45 Post by jcagle »

Fortunately my Lucent Technologies winmodem works well under Linux with the Lucent Technologies drivers. It seems to serve it's purpose as a modem just fine. I'm actually able to download stuff a bit faster under Linux than under Windows.

I've not been the biggest fan of winmodems, or internal modems - period, myself. I've only had success with 2 internal modems in my life, and that was before winmodems came out. They were EISA, not PCI. At one time I was using Windows 98 and in 1998 and 1999, I tried several different internal modems, and I couldn't even get them working properly in Windows. The first session in Windows with the modem would work fine, then when I rebooted, the modem didn't work anymore. It would work again after running without the modem and then reseeding it. This happened with SEVERAL internal modems I had. This wasn't even in Linux.

This is somewhat off topic, but I had an interesting experience with a video card I got for Christmas a few years ago. The box said it was compatable with Windows. There was no indication that it was Linux compatable. The funny thing was I couldn't get it to work in Windows, but it worked very well under Linux. Kind of strange, isn't it? Something that was designed specifically for Windows worked in Linux but not Windows.

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#46 Post by rarsa »

I think it is completely OK for one user to advise another user to buy a new modem
As far as I've seen, it's only been users in this thread sugesting it :)

Barry is the only Puppy developer I know of. The rest of us are just users/contributors, some more technical than others, some more vocal than others, but we are all users.

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#47 Post by aahhaaa »

my Lucent Technologies winmodem works well under Linux with the Lucent Technologies drivers.

OK, now maybe we are getting somewhere!

JC, can you tell us exactly what model you have, & exactly what drivers? You're talking PCI right? is it the 56K V.92 Agere Chipset ? lo or full profile? has it been installed on an earlier distro?

Lucent never made a few of anything. Somewhere there is a bunch of them in a warehouse getting obsolete... I could try & get them for us? :D

Here are some pages that discuss the Lucent modem & Linux:
http://www.modemsite.com/56k/ltwin3.asp
http://www.physcip.uni-stuttgart.de/heby/ltmodem/

I don't understand much of what they are recommending...

This one is a little sad, Richard was working on this prob back in '99-2000:
http://www.close.u-net.com/ltmodem.html

Sage- Personally, I'd trade the cpu overhead of a software modem for the overhead of Windows plus updates plus AV... anytime. Your desktop is cpu overhead too, as is the mouse & and any software higher than machine language. I agree with you in the abstract, but all I can ask is you go out & try demoing Puppy to ordinary dial-up computer users, and see what response you get at the 'how do I get my email?' Q. :?

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#48 Post by Sage »

Simple - take your serial modem with you!

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#49 Post by jcoder24 »

sling-shot wrote:
jcoder24 wrote:
sling-shot wrote: But you have mentioned that it may be dangerous to use it.
Can you post the link that mentions it being dangerous? It was prob. so long ago that I forgot I said it.
Although it is irresponsible of me to say i cant remember where exactly i read that, it is indeed true. Actually that is the only thing i remember reading in that thread. on second thought i feel may be it was not your post .. ?
Apologies
I think you are referring to the disclaimer (the posted one said HCF but its the same for the HSF):

"WARNING: this is an EXPERIMENTAL BETA VERSION of the HCF drivers for Linux.
USE AT YOUR OWN RISK! See the file /usr/lib/hcfpci/LICENSE for details. "

This is a standard disclaimer for beta software, in fact it is even a disclaimer for some offical releases as well. So far I haven't had any problems with it and I haven't had any complaints yet either.

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#50 Post by Guest »

aahhaaa said
I agree with you in the abstract, but all I can ask is you go out & try demoing Puppy to ordinary dial-up computer users, and see what response you get at the 'how do I get my email?'
Sage said
Simple - take your serial modem with you!
Sage I don't think this is the point here. I agree the best way may be for us to get external modems.

The issue is, the people we are trying to help experience linux, especially Puppy, have mostly bought low end machines that have all the nice things they want under windoz but still come with winmodems on board. We can demo on our machines ok but we need to demo on their machines and we need to give them a CD that they can use without more investment in hardware. Otherwise, it's just too hard.

I believe a lot of people like myself who have taken up the Linux "cause" are not all high tech but we have gained experience through the Home/SOHO/small business evolution and we can talk non-tech to the ordinary user.

If we can only have an answer to aahhaaa's "how do I (the user) get my email?" that does not include major fixes or the purchase of additional (relatively) expensive hardware, I am sure the Puppy revolution will take off like a rocket.

I'm not even sure that I can tell prospective Puppians that any external modem will do the job. Is this really the case?

As I said in my previous post, "don't downplay the marketing". This modem issue seems to me to be a major objection to the ordinary user giving linux a go. It would be great if Puppy could be the distro that solves the problem.

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#51 Post by bobwal »

:oops: Sorry people that last post was from me - bobwal - had stopped for lunch and not logged back on.

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#52 Post by Sage »

People who buy rubbish from the likes of Dell or PCWorld deserve all they get. It's no different from buying a TV, washing machine or even a house. If you don't research what you are buying with your hard-earned dosh you deserve to get ripped off. Even so, anyone who is conned into buying an internal Winmodem should be capable of removing the side of the case (two screws) and removing it (one screw) and lifting the lid on their rubbish bin (handle!). Their is no good reason to continue living with their initial mistake when rectification could be so cheap and efficacious. Just like the OS itself - what we are preaching is : there is no need to continue using Billy's bent and bloated SW when the remedy is free!
Any of those proverbial six year old children could assist in connecting an external modem to the serial port after they've finished programming the video/DVD recorder..........

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#53 Post by aahhaaa »

Bob- we are in full agreement! :D
We can demo on our machines ok but we need to demo on their machines and we need to give them a CD that they can use without more investment in hardware.

Sage- People who buy rubbish from the likes of Dell...

You are talking about the majority of computer users here. Unless they own stock in TinyLimp, prob'ly most all would like to get off the plantation.
They have phobias tho, because they have invested so much time in learning the ins&outs of a couple programs, and have had such a bad time trying to cope with spam, updates, and the intentionally alarming messages from proprietary security software; not to mention real virus attacks & crashes. They are walking wounded, not enthusiasts, and should be treated with a bit more empathy.

I used the word snob earlier. Calling their computers rubbish makes my point- its just another version of RTFM,YA. Except there is no manual. Its what gives Linux its cult reputation. Its an enthusiast's attitude. It drives people away from Linux- including the makers of the hardware the mainstream uses- like Dell... when it will be a company like Dell (or emachines) that first succeeds with a mass market machine that includes Linux. Isn't that the threshold we are really shooting for?

AS I see it, the point of PUPPY is that it runs on almost any machine. Your solution only works for some. Many laptops no longer include any serial connectors; and just like the parallel port has vanished from many desktop mobos, USB is probably all we will have in the future. The software modem exists, and it is called a winmodem because the Linux community has made itself into the out group among many hardware manufacturers. We are talking about the future right? Getting PUPPY into the mainstream computers? So the grannies can get their family photos & emails? And the impoverished screenwriters can promote their work? And the little shopkeeper can send in his taxes? And the kids with an old hand-me-down box can learn Linux and write our future software?

Going back to the auto analogy, you seem to be saying to the guy with the flat tire that he should have bought a Lexis. I don't think that holds water. I've built a bunch of machines from scratch, and I find that full DUM setup can be the most difficult part without an autoinstall disk. But mebbe that's just me. :roll:

If the Linux world had a Nobel Prize, it should be given to whoever solves this problem. It is preventing millions of people from joining the community.

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#54 Post by rarsa »

you seem to be saying to the guy with the flat tire that he should have bought a Lexis
Actually I read it differently:

If you buy cheap tires, you better (choose one or more):
A) learn to change them
B) Accept that you will be ripped of by the mecanic that know how to,
C) Accept that you will be without a car under certain conditions.

Puppy is not for everybody. Granted. It does not pretend to be. There are many other distributions and OSs as alternatives, both comercial and open source. The point here is not to "assimilate them".

Using Puppy requires some effort from the user's part. Granted. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Puppy is a small footprint distro. Why is it so difficult to accept? It can be better. Complaining won't make it so. Contributing may make it so.

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#55 Post by Sage »

I concur with rarsa. I try to avoid fitting Ford Focus parts to my Nissan Primera! However, my trailer fits both!
The external modem is the perfect trailer for PCs of all marques.

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#56 Post by Flash »

Sage wrote:...The external modem is the perfect trailer for PCs of all marques.
I respectfully disagree! The back of my computer already looks like a Medusa head, with cords running every direction. Anything that will fit inside my computer, goes inside my computer.

Also, someone reading this thread is likely to wind up suffering some confusion about internal vs external, and soft- vs hard- ware modems. An internal modem can be either a soft- or hardware modem. I know because I happen to have an internal hardware modem. An internal softmodem consistently beat it in a direct comparison from the same phone jack, in the same computer with the same OS (Windows 2000) and ISP.

Lots of signal processing is being implemented in software. It offers considerable potential advantages over hardware implementation of a given scheme. It is easy to modify (within the limits of the hardware), cheaper, smaller, usually more stable, and can be self-tuning. I have some experience with analog computers and I can tell you that implementing all that with hardware is nearly impossible.

Your experience may be that external modems work more reliably in Linux than internal ones do, but that doesn't mean they have to, or that they are technically superior just because they are external modems. And saying that people who want to switch to Linux will just have to invest in an external modem if they also want to read their email doesn't seem like a strong sales pitch for Linux.

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#57 Post by Sage »

Once we remove the Beast of Redmond and his evil empire from the face of IT, perhaps we can all move on to a more rational approach. That's one of the great prizes offfered to humanity by open source and Linux, in particular. If you espouse greed and capitalism, you end up with all the strings being pulled by a few fat cats. This is no recipe for the advance of science and technology, let alone social harmony, peace and understanding. No good wishing for universality of HW until we root out the rot. Incidentally, internal HW modems can be just as much of a hassle unless they're mounted in PCI slot 4. Even then, they require the correct drivers. An external serial modem can operate as a three-wire device and can sign on as a 'standard' modem in any OS - don't come more economical and universal than that. No good wishing for things to be different than they are. Like the old (Irish?) joke in which the Dubliner ask for directions to London. In response to which, if I were going to London, I wouldn't start from here.........

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#58 Post by bobwal »

Sage Said
An external serial modem can operate as a three-wire device and can sign on as a 'standard' modem in any OS - don't come more economical and universal than that. No good wishing for things to be different than they are.
Are you saying that any/all external serial modems are compatible with Puppy?

If what some of you are saying that internal modems are rubbish is right, then is this the only message we can give to the people - who own the crap computers - we are trying to get to use linux, especially Puppy?

"Buy a XXXXX external modem and I guarantee it will work."

This is the question I have been asking - can someone answer Yes or No?

Do any manufacturers of ext. modems falsly state their units are "serial" when they are not? Are all usb external modems correctly marked?

I believe that Puppy has tremendous potential to forward the Linux cause and I agree that its small size is it's strength. I also happen to believe it should be supported by internal modems.

You want contribution - OK - Can the Puppy Community
1 Identify a suitable modem manufacturer
2 Commence an email lobby of that manufacturer to provide a modem that will support Puppy?

I doubt we can overturn Redmond, (it may do this itself before long) but we may be able to do our bit from the bottom.

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#59 Post by Sage »

So far I haven't found an external serial modem that doesn't behave as a bog standard modem on any machine with any OS. I only buy cheap Chinese clones - no point paying extra for all that advertising and fancy artwork on the badge. So your answer would appear to be YES!

You can easily identify a serial modem - it has a D9 or D25 port on the rear and comes with a complete array of signalling l.e.d. s, so you are in full control of what you send, and more importantly, receive. Most have a power on/off switch, too. The value of this cannot be overstated. On the one hand, if you get a d/l crash ('doze users will know that it's a question of when? not if?!) you can often clear it by switching the modem off. Obviously, this isn't possible without a hard reset of the whole PC with an internal modem. On the other hand, if your RD light is flashing and you have not issued a download instruction, you can bet some virus or malware is trying to infiltrate your system - again, use the modem on/off switch. This is a distinct advantage conferred by DUN as opposed to broadband, too.

External USB modems are a special class of Winmodem. They work very well with 'doze. They can suffer all the same idiosyncracies of internal Winmodems for non-'doze OSes, although USB can be more forgiving in certain configurations providing drivers are available. Best avoided for Linux. There is little cost advantage over external serial modems, anyway.

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A Solution & a Source

#60 Post by aahhaaa »

if you've made it this far in this thread :shock:

I said I'd go looking; well, here's a little progress for some of us. As mentioned above, there is a 3rd kind, the internal hardware modem. While not solving the problem of using existing installed modems, they do provide a cheap solution that will run under both Linux & Windows from a PCI slot inside the machine.

I contacted a reputable modem seller on eBay, somebody who has been around a while and knows Linux. Here's what he said:

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner but I just got Fedora Core 4 disks today and couldn't wait to try it out. I have been experimenting with Conexant/Rockwell winmodem installations under the various versions of Fedora. For Puppy I believe you want to stick with a hardware modem whether it is a external or internal PCI. That way you avoid having to worry about having a specific driver for you modem and OS. I see that rarsa posted a link in your forum that lists some of the hardware PCI modems still available. The 3Com 5610 on the list is a V.90 version of the modem I'm selling. These will install like an external hardware modem since they work like a generic serial modem. I myself connect with dialup and sympathize with individuals that want to run Linux and are stuck with dialup. I wouldn't mind trying Puppy to figure out the exact installation steps if you are interested. It would not be until next week though since I would download it through my work's broadband then bring it home. If you miss out on the current auction don't worry. I have over a hundred of these modems and will be continually listing more.

In a follow-up email he said:

I downloaded Puppy last night and got it running after a little challenge. The machine I wanted to try it on would only boot from floppy. Anyway, I got the USR modem to work. It is actually quite easy to set up.

The modem I was inquiring about was listed as: US Robotics/3Com 56k V.92 PCI Hardware Modem Win/Linux eBay Item number: 6813445661

It sold for $16.50 and no outrageous shipping. For the record, I have no relationship with this seller other than having bought from him before. I hope he doesn't mind my quoting him, and that he will consider posting here! :wink:

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