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ttuuxxx
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DEVELOPERS to CONTRIBUTORS (STAKEHOLDERS) :)

#1 Post by ttuuxxx »

Hello Guys/Gals
Well WhoDo is the next coordinator of 4.2 and as Series 5.0 goes it might be number 6.0, Barry has used 5.0 pet in the repo for his own projects:)
I might stand up for 5.0 or 6.0 as the next coordinator, but I'm undecided at the moment. Thanks for your time.

ttuuxxx
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http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
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#2 Post by Lobster »

:)

My email is

Code: Select all

ed.jason@gmail.com
I am sure contacting you by pm, here on the forum or by psip (wot no sip number?) will be simple enough . . .
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#3 Post by ttuuxxx »

Come on guys , I would like to get this started, 86 views of this post so far and I've only had 1 email, and one other response on here from Lobster and he's not a Developer yet either.
We do need to have this working.
I want to use emails because well On the forum we are limited to the amount of "PM" in the inbox before its full, we wouldn't have any backups, My in box would be full like 5 times a day. Its just silly to think that this could work usings PM's.
Plus since its the developers who decide whats going to happen with future of puppy. Ummmm
Emails are great for documentation
sending out ideas - receiving vital feedback. etc
lets get with the new program guys, Its going to boil down to either puppy will progress into the future or it will fail. Right now I'm trying to organise it having a future. My hands are tied.
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
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#4 Post by Lobster »

Perhaps whilst people are engaged with 4.1, you might center your attention on 3.02 which was started over a year ago. I believe you are co-developer of this? Or you might focus on 4.1 8)

That way your confidence and enthusiasm might be proven.
We don't even know your name.

At the moment we are merely thinking about 4.2.

You are asking for others to develop? Why not as has been suggested focus on a few things (maybe from 3.02) that you can add to Puppy.

:)

Developers are able to contact you at their convenience (not yours)
on this forum, by PM and now by email. This does not always happen by the second day . . ..

Perhaps you might start a page on the community site for 4.2 . . .

Meanwhile here are some tips on project management
http://www.dantaylor.com/books/gracian.html
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#5 Post by ttuuxxx »

Lobster wrote:Perhaps whilst people are engaged with 4.1, you might center your attention on 3.02 which was started over a year ago. I believe you are co-developer of this? Or you might focus on 4.1 8)

That way your confidence and enthusiasm might be proven.
We don't even know your name.

At the moment we are merely thinking about 4.2.

You are asking for others to develop? Why not as has been suggested focus on a few things (maybe from 3.02) that you can add to Puppy.

:)

Developers are able to contact you at their convenience (not yours)
on this forum, by PM and now by email. This does not always happen by the second day . . ..

Perhaps you might start a page on the community site for 4.2 . . .

Meanwhile here are some tips on project management
http://www.dantaylor.com/books/gracian.html
Hi Lobster

I don't need any tips on a project Management, I have a Diploma in it.
Actually what I am trying to do is, Finding out who wants to do what, Like who's going to build the base, Not now but in the future so we have some sort of Idea of the Future for Puppy. I'm not trying to get the project actually started right at this moment, Just trying to have a layout. The clock is ticking and soon it will hit midnight.
People are wondering these questions, ever since Barry made his announcement, there really hasn't been any real straight and narrow path to follow. Everything is scattered and up in the air, I'm just trying to clean it up and get it organised. So things can run smoothly. Thats all any well run business would want a well designed Contingency plan.
In about month or less it should cracked open and implemented.

But if I listen to you, I'll be running around the last minute trying to find people/developers to offer to take task on. It wouldn't hurt them to take 2 mins and try to organise a email, So I can start to prepare notes and get ready for the future. It works this way they spend 2 mins, I add them to my email list as friends, I type out a page or 2 or ideas that i've been reading on on the forum and send them all a letter at once, not 10 PMs that I cut&cop&paste 10 times on here as a PM.
The question will be simple and straight forward with yes or no answers.
I then take all the response, add up YES VS No then release the results.
I also would ask as a questions do you want the answers to be anonymous or not.
I'm more for anonymous but its up to them, Like I said a few months back. Think-tank can ruin any company. Thats why for the individual questions.
Next once we get past that and have a clear idea of how they want the next release.
I'll release another document with Just about every job that is needed to be fulfilled to complete a release of Puppy, I'll send it out to all the developers and they can choose anything on the list they want.
Then finally we have some sort Plan laid in place.
That plan will be posted in the wiki and on here so everyone will know who's doing what.
That can be done now, And it would make the Puppy Linux Team look very Professional and Well Organised.

Like I said 2 minutes from them makes me spend hours for them, But hey instead of working on 4.02 today, I managed to release 5 pets in the software&stuff. LOL
As for 3.02 Yes tronkel and I are both heading that up s, More tronkel than myself, because he builds it, Only one can do that, I Do more things like packages, Build themes etc.
But at this point most of that is done, I could get a few more small apps, but we are trying to keep it under 100MB. That project lands 100% on tronkels time frame. Not mine.

Hope that explains it
ttuuxxx

Ps my real name is Jeff
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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#6 Post by trapster »

Come on guys , I would like to get this started, 86 views of this post so far and I've only had 1 email, and one other response on here from Lobster and he's not a Developer yet either.
Not being a "Developer" I can look but not touch.

:)


Please keep us posted on how YOU developers are making out with the new version.
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#7 Post by ttuuxxx »

trapster wrote:
Come on guys , I would like to get this started, 86 views of this post so far and I've only had 1 email, and one other response on here from Lobster and he's not a Developer yet either.
Not being a "Developer" I can look but not touch.

:)


Please keep us posted on how YOU developers are making out with the new version.
No No NO
Hey trapster its not like that, Barry Always did the initial stuff himself because well, he had the credentials, He worked away in office and produced a base and developed some initial programs and did some troubleshooting and tossed some ideas around. Thats the stage pretty much what I'm looking for. Also Barry has instructed in his Blog that it will be the developers in charge of future releases. I'm only trying to go off that. thats why I'm planning on releasing results ASAP so we can have some public community input along the way. Man I'm always looking like the bad guy and I'm just trying to organise something so we aren't running around like chickens with our heads cut off the day that Barry officially steps down.
My Personal thoughts on the whole issue is to open it up completely to the community and take half of decision making away from the developers only, Like which window manager, media player, fonts, graphics, applications in general, Size, compiled as 386i or 486i, Ubuntu uses 386i, I use 386i, puppy uses 486i, my VLC release was 4 times the size of xine and ran on average 30%+ less resources out of 7 or so different user test. What does that say? Really I feel that the developers should build it, trouble shoot it/maintain , and bring new software to puppy. But the powers that be say different.
So I'm doing the next best thing, Just Organising things and know my place!.

P.s My personal thought are just that and don't quote or hang me out to dry. :shock:
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
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#8 Post by HairyWill »

Oh dear the division begins.

There are no puppy developers.

Old development model.
People told Barry what worked and what didn't.
If he felt like it he included their suggestions.
For a good deal of the time he was out there investigating what ever he wanted to and looking for new stuff/ideas.

Many of the people that develop stuff for puppy release their own puplets, they don't need their enhancements to be included in main puppy. Often Barry incorporated their good ideas.

Start with clearly defined and measurable goals.
net booting
graphical desktop with zero user input
works with Pete's flaky soundcard
hotplug
persistent removable device mountpoints

You have a diploma in project management. Is that personal projects or group projects? What did it say about motivating people that are casual volunteers, you don't pay them, cannot sack them and they will do whatever the hell they please (welcome to the open source development model)?

You should have my email already. But I personally would welcome a more open method of communication. Use a forum thread or start a blog on puppylinux.org and use it like Barry did or if you really insist on email, create an open mailing list on a list server somewhere that allows anyone to subscribe.

I noticed a load of your posts from when I was on holiday are empty, what gives, did I miss something?
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#9 Post by zigbert »

Dear Jeff

Don't rush, -we are all here. And please don't rush us either. I second Will in an open communication. All new users here should be able to scan what is happening in the development of Puppy. How can we else be introduced to NEW developers.

Please don't make a statement of what should be done. Instead put together the big bowl of ideas to improve Puppy, and encourage people to contribute. Then all can choose what we think is funny to work with. THIS funny stuff are sure not what everybody think is most important ..... But something is done.

I personally don't read all post on the forum or in Barrys blog, and I do not intend to read all post from you either. You are a very inspired man, and a man with many words, but I think you can manage to lead the project, if you just cool down a LITTLE bit.

Small steps will most often lead in the correct direction.

Best wishes
Sigmund

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#10 Post by Lobster »

and they will do whatever the hell they please
Maybe we can issue a diploma? :)

Jeff, the on line book is not really project management,
it is a a Jesuit book called 'The Art of Worldly Wisdom'

It has some useful tips that you might find of benefit
I agree with Sigmund.
Your enthusiasm is to be commended
but being cool is a required and acquired skill

I am wondering if completed code updates can be provided (much as is done now on the forum perhaps?) and then it is a question of someone with the inclination putting it all together?

Do we have other options?
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#11 Post by Trobin »

All I can say is good luck. It looks like you'll need it.
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#12 Post by mysticmarks »

ttuuxxx, i thiink if your donating the time required, the you are the right person for the job right now. Period. It's a lot of work and organization.

I agree with your statement about a better way to use existing packages from other distros. A BIG BIG script to do it right.

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#13 Post by ttuuxxx »

Ok Guys you take it as casual as you may, Just sit back and I'll be ready to lend a hand when the ball hits.
But before then, Truly My hands are open, I have one main goal and thats to get the next release organised.
Some have said I have your emails already, No that was just a pm, sorry :)
Jeff
Last edited by ttuuxxx on Tue 16 Sep 2008, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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#14 Post by alienjeff »

ttuuxxx wrote:I don't need any tips on a project Management, I have a Diploma in it.
I strongly suspect you also have a diploma in Arrogance.

Know the difference between having a diploma and real world experience in project management. Take a course in interpersonal communication skills before embarking on what is presently shaping up as a shakedown cruise on the not-so-good ship Failboat.
I have one prime directive and thats to align you all together.
I don't buy that. You plaster "by ttuuxxx" on all manner of things. Your love for Puppy Linux is surpassed by your egocentric behavior and obvious attention starvation.

Do a long and careful study of someone you supposedly admire: Barry Kauler. He's one of the most unassuming and even tempered souls I've met in my 57 years on planet Earth. Emulate Barry's demeanor before you completely alienate what limited support you do have.
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#15 Post by trapster »

I have one prime directive and thats to align you all together.
LOL....sounds like...herding.

Seriously, do you have a rough outline of how you're going to attack this?
Will you break up the categories and have "teams" for each?
We definately have qualified individuals for each.
Networking: who?
Multimedia: who?
Booting: who?
Install Programs: who?
etc...

Members can occupy different teams.
What is it that each category needs?
What are the wants for each category?

What has been the biggest gripe for newbies on here?
Installation of programs, internet connection, .SFS files for full install? Office programs?

These are what need attention first. Make it easier for people who want to try it and use it.

Puppy does exactly what I need it to do, but obviously others have difficulties.


- just my 3 cents

p.s. - I learned a long time ago...when you're leading others, try to avoid the "I" word. :wink:
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#16 Post by Pizzasgood »

I guess I'm the first coordinator for the next puppy Release.
Did I not just say something about "Who died and made you king" arguments? Yep, over here.

Not to say you aren't qualified or that I wouldn't like you being coordinator. That isn't the point. The point is that I don't recall voting for you, or even saying any kind of opinion about it. For that matter, I only recall a handful of people saying anything.


Before we start choosing coordinators and such, we all need to get together and decide on some sort of structure. There's still the old Foundation (now Community?) that we can fall back on. Have we actually done this already? Again, I don't recall a decision actually being made. I may have missed it, I've been busy this summer.

BTW, why is it that all these references to the Community are on Lobster's wiki? Don't we have our own wiki? Temporary solution until we get organized?


I'm sorry to sound like Mr. We-Need-Rules-And-Regulations. I generally hate them. But we need them with this. Without a structure we will fall apart. This isn't a couple people teaming up here, this is a long term community driven project. I may not have a degree in anything yet, but I have enough common sense to know that nothing will get done without a structure that everybody involved has agreed on.


The first thing we need to do is get everybody together, and discuss whether we want to use the old Foundation structure, or create something new. It needs to give enough time for the people who only visit once a week or so to be involved (that group often includes me, though I try for thrice a week).

Then, we need to hash out how we're going to do this. Not sure if you're aware of the SVN/GIT discussion that went on earlier? We need to decide what we're going to use and how we'll use it. I'll tell you now that if it winds up being a "send your code to Mr. Coordinator and he'll assemble it all" type deal, like all the community editions we've done, then I will not be involved. We need some kind of SVN type system. Barry seems to agree.



As for email, only if anyone off the street can subscribe through an automatic process that doesn't need human involvement. I haven't really used mailing lists so I don't know if there can be permissions so that they can read without sending. We don't need to have a bunch of random fluff going through the development lists, but the development lists are also the most important to make transparent so people can see what's going on. Also there must be an online log of it (not sure if this is implied, just making sure).


May be easier to just use a development forum. Probably would be good to be a separate forum from this one, for traffic considerations. Not private! In fact allow anybody to sign up. But strongly discourage any fluff. Off topic and generic requests for help belong over here and should be ignored, other than maybe telling them that they're in the wrong place and providing a link to here. ttuuxxx, please don't run off and create one overnight. I know you're chomping at the bit, but hold your horses. This isn't a race; there's no need to rush. People might want to propose recommendations about what forum software to use, etc.



I might run my own personal projects with a fly by the seat of my pants mentality, but there's a big difference between a one-man effort and a long term group project that is intended to be used by many hundreds of people! This needs Planning.








Somewhat back on topic, we do need to find out who is interested in actually doing development stuff. I am. I won't support a half-baked scheme, but given proper planning I will do what I can to help out. The first item on my radar is fixing the bug where Xorgwizard only halfway configures xorg.conf for a dual-monitor setup. It should either go all the way, or not make an attempt. Either one would result in a WORKING xorg.conf file. But the halfway approach results in a broken file that I must correct by hand every time I boot with pfix=ram or a fresh install.

This may also be an issue for people who have only one monitor, but both an onboard graphics chip and a separate graphics card.


Otherwise I haven't used 4.xx enough to know what the current issues are. Until halfway through this summer I was still using a derivative of 2.14 for daily use. One thing is that ever since we dropped Xtmix (I think it was Xtmix - the one with the retro look) I've been wholly unsatisfied with Puppy's volume controls. Just haven't gotten around to writing my own, as Alsamixer gets the job done right the first time. But it would be nice to have a proper mixer in the tray. That's something I could do. I've shied away from learning to use GTK with C/C++ for too long anyways. Need to get it over with, as that would open up many new projects to me.

I could also tweak the PetGet manager to have the functionality of Pet-Be-Gone built in. Barry had actually intended something similar from the beginning but never got around to it.

The unleashed createpuppy script needs some work too. I have a crudely hacked local copy that can read the configuration from a config file and then do the build automatically, as opposed to asking a million questions every time, which always annoyed the carp out of me (don't know how the carp got into me though - I hardly ever eat fish...). Mine is crude, I basically just hardcoded it to read from the file and not ask questions. A proper solution would ask if it should ask questions or read a file, and have a default file but accept others. This way one can build Puppy more reproducibly, because you don't have to worry about accidentally putting in a different choice during each build.
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#17 Post by Trobin »

Yup, the knives are out and being sharpened.
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#18 Post by Trobin »

I do hope that you manage to sort it ouit. It would be disappointing to see Puppy go the way of other distro's after their main developer(s) stepped aside.
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#19 Post by Lobster »

Pizzasgood wrote: I don't recall a decision actually being made. [/b] I may have missed it, I've been busy this summer.
.
Hope you had a good summer Jeremy on the farm. :)

The situation is one of availability. Tronkel has kindly suggested me.
I couldn't run aground, if you paid me.
I would prefer MU or you, Sigmund, HairyWill, one of our other developers, Warren, Raffy etc Someone who is able to work on Puppy with the energy he deserves.

Ttuuxxx has kindly offered to put his considerable energy and diplomatic skills (in development) into 4.2

No one else has shown any inclination
It is very difficult to vote without candidates. Do we have any?
BTW, why is it that all these references to the Community are on Lobster's wiki? Don't we have our own wiki? Temporary solution until we get organized?
Very much temp, I hope.
I use my wiki because I am familiar with its operation
When using the new community wiki I have to think about the wiki rather than the content.
Defeats the purpose. :?
I did the same with PSIP and them moved it to the community wiki
So I have suggested a member of the community start a 4.2 page on the community wiki. My content is freely available to them . . .
Without a structure we will fall apart.
Our structure (of parts) is in place
I spend all my time falling apart :lol:
The first thing we need to do is get everybody together
Maybe someone will play that part?

We need some kind of SVN type system.
What are the choices? Where is the poll?
Can this go on the agenda?

May be easier to just use a development forum. Probably would be good to be a separate forum from this one, for traffic considerations.
We have had several of those. One was used reasonably extensively.
Perhaps this one?
http://www.freelists.org/list/puppy-devel

I will do what I can to help out.

Hooray!
I hardly ever eat fish...
Heretic! :oops: [must remember there is other food from fish]
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#20 Post by tronkel »

Let's have a quick recap of how Barry does things.

He's not in favour of a formally project-managed Puppy project at all. He maintains that this does not encourage the creativity that Puppy needs in order to hold on to its commanding lead in this distro playing field.

He created the basis of the base versions single-handedly. Other very creative contributors from the forum also offered up various sub-projects which he either took up or declined according to as he saw fit. The point is, Barry was the sole creator of the basis of the base versions. I don't believe anyone else in the forum has the exact skill set to implement a base version as such. There are many who can chuck out a puplet unleashed or re-mastered "community edition" but none who could come up with an innovative base version complete with its current devx_sfs and unleashed core. I think I'm right in saying that Kirk has experience with T2 and is a good scripter as well. He is the exception here.

So Jeff needn't be surprised here that no-one is offering up their services to create the proposed 4.2 base version. Also, this category of "developer" cannot be found in the forum embodied into one person. Head-hunting elsewhere might be an option here.

If the project gets structured in the form of a "leader" who does the herding, plus a committee/developer team I reckon Puppy will not get used as much as it is now and will eventually die off. The only proven system is Barry's informal structure. The Puppy that will really get used is the version(s) that Barry will make in his part-time role - in whatever form they appear.

IMHO any post-Barry leader of the project will need to have a skill set and philosophy very similar to Barry's

Anything short of this and the puppy distro will sink without trace after a protracted dying-off period.

In the meantime. I still say that Lobster makes the best front man for Puppy at least for now. He's the only one who doesn't take himself seriously and has the good humour that the job requires. Any cats with any spare fish, please donate to the worthwhile Puppy cause.
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