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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Tue 16 Sep 2008, 21:16    Post subject:  

Quote:
I guess I'm the first coordinator for the next puppy Release.
Did I not just say something about "Who died and made you king" arguments? Yep, over here.

Not to say you aren't qualified or that I wouldn't like you being coordinator. That isn't the point. The point is that I don't recall voting for you, or even saying any kind of opinion about it. For that matter, I only recall a handful of people saying anything.


Before we start choosing coordinators and such, we all need to get together and decide on some sort of structure. There's still the old Foundation (now Community?) that we can fall back on. Have we actually done this already? Again, I don't recall a decision actually being made. I may have missed it, I've been busy this summer.

BTW, why is it that all these references to the Community are on Lobster's wiki? Don't we have our own wiki? Temporary solution until we get organized?


I'm sorry to sound like Mr. We-Need-Rules-And-Regulations. I generally hate them. But we need them with this. Without a structure we will fall apart. This isn't a couple people teaming up here, this is a long term community driven project. I may not have a degree in anything yet, but I have enough common sense to know that nothing will get done without a structure that everybody involved has agreed on.


The first thing we need to do is get everybody together, and discuss whether we want to use the old Foundation structure, or create something new. It needs to give enough time for the people who only visit once a week or so to be involved (that group often includes me, though I try for thrice a week).

Then, we need to hash out how we're going to do this. Not sure if you're aware of the SVN/GIT discussion that went on earlier? We need to decide what we're going to use and how we'll use it. I'll tell you now that if it winds up being a "send your code to Mr. Coordinator and he'll assemble it all" type deal, like all the community editions we've done, then I will not be involved. We need some kind of SVN type system. Barry seems to agree.



As for email, only if anyone off the street can subscribe through an automatic process that doesn't need human involvement. I haven't really used mailing lists so I don't know if there can be permissions so that they can read without sending. We don't need to have a bunch of random fluff going through the development lists, but the development lists are also the most important to make transparent so people can see what's going on. Also there must be an online log of it (not sure if this is implied, just making sure).


May be easier to just use a development forum. Probably would be good to be a separate forum from this one, for traffic considerations. Not private! In fact allow anybody to sign up. But strongly discourage any fluff. Off topic and generic requests for help belong over here and should be ignored, other than maybe telling them that they're in the wrong place and providing a link to here. ttuuxxx, please don't run off and create one overnight. I know you're chomping at the bit, but hold your horses. This isn't a race; there's no need to rush. People might want to propose recommendations about what forum software to use, etc.



I might run my own personal projects with a fly by the seat of my pants mentality, but there's a big difference between a one-man effort and a long term group project that is intended to be used by many hundreds of people! This needs Planning.








Somewhat back on topic, we do need to find out who is interested in actually doing development stuff. I am. I won't support a half-baked scheme, but given proper planning I will do what I can to help out. The first item on my radar is fixing the bug where Xorgwizard only halfway configures xorg.conf for a dual-monitor setup. It should either go all the way, or not make an attempt. Either one would result in a WORKING xorg.conf file. But the halfway approach results in a broken file that I must correct by hand every time I boot with pfix=ram or a fresh install.

This may also be an issue for people who have only one monitor, but both an onboard graphics chip and a separate graphics card.


Otherwise I haven't used 4.xx enough to know what the current issues are. Until halfway through this summer I was still using a derivative of 2.14 for daily use. One thing is that ever since we dropped Xtmix (I think it was Xtmix - the one with the retro look) I've been wholly unsatisfied with Puppy's volume controls. Just haven't gotten around to writing my own, as Alsamixer gets the job done right the first time. But it would be nice to have a proper mixer in the tray. That's something I could do. I've shied away from learning to use GTK with C/C++ for too long anyways. Need to get it over with, as that would open up many new projects to me.

I could also tweak the PetGet manager to have the functionality of Pet-Be-Gone built in. Barry had actually intended something similar from the beginning but never got around to it.

The unleashed createpuppy script needs some work too. I have a crudely hacked local copy that can read the configuration from a config file and then do the build automatically, as opposed to asking a million questions every time, which always annoyed the carp out of me (don't know how the carp got into me though - I hardly ever eat fish...). Mine is crude, I basically just hardcoded it to read from the file and not ask questions. A proper solution would ask if it should ask questions or read a file, and have a default file but accept others. This way one can build Puppy more reproducibly, because you don't have to worry about accidentally putting in a different choice during each build.

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Trobin

Joined: 18 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Sep 2008, 22:57    Post subject:  

Yup, the knives are out and being sharpened.
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Trobin

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PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep 2008, 00:44    Post subject:  

I do hope that you manage to sort it ouit. It would be disappointing to see Puppy go the way of other distro's after their main developer(s) stepped aside.
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Lobster
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep 2008, 02:35    Post subject:  

Pizzasgood wrote:

I don't recall a decision actually being made. [/b] I may have missed it, I've been busy this summer.
.


Hope you had a good summer Jeremy on the farm. Smile

The situation is one of availability. Tronkel has kindly suggested me.
I couldn't run aground, if you paid me.
I would prefer MU or you, Sigmund, HairyWill, one of our other developers, Warren, Raffy etc Someone who is able to work on Puppy with the energy he deserves.

Ttuuxxx has kindly offered to put his considerable energy and diplomatic skills (in development) into 4.2

No one else has shown any inclination
It is very difficult to vote without candidates. Do we have any?

Quote:
BTW, why is it that all these references to the Community are on Lobster's wiki? Don't we have our own wiki? Temporary solution until we get organized?


Very much temp, I hope.
I use my wiki because I am familiar with its operation
When using the new community wiki I have to think about the wiki rather than the content.
Defeats the purpose. Confused
I did the same with PSIP and them moved it to the community wiki
So I have suggested a member of the community start a 4.2 page on the community wiki. My content is freely available to them . . .

Quote:
Without a structure we will fall apart.


Our structure (of parts) is in place
I spend all my time falling apart Laughing

Quote:
The first thing we need to do is get everybody together


Maybe someone will play that part?


Quote:
We need some kind of SVN type system.


What are the choices? Where is the poll?
Can this go on the agenda?


Quote:
May be easier to just use a development forum. Probably would be good to be a separate forum from this one, for traffic considerations.


We have had several of those. One was used reasonably extensively.
Perhaps this one?
http://www.freelists.org/list/puppy-devel


Quote:
I will do what I can to help out.

Hooray!

Quote:
I hardly ever eat fish...

Heretic! Embarassed [must remember there is other food from fish]

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep 2008, 03:32    Post subject:  

Let's have a quick recap of how Barry does things.

He's not in favour of a formally project-managed Puppy project at all. He maintains that this does not encourage the creativity that Puppy needs in order to hold on to its commanding lead in this distro playing field.

He created the basis of the base versions single-handedly. Other very creative contributors from the forum also offered up various sub-projects which he either took up or declined according to as he saw fit. The point is, Barry was the sole creator of the basis of the base versions. I don't believe anyone else in the forum has the exact skill set to implement a base version as such. There are many who can chuck out a puplet unleashed or re-mastered "community edition" but none who could come up with an innovative base version complete with its current devx_sfs and unleashed core. I think I'm right in saying that Kirk has experience with T2 and is a good scripter as well. He is the exception here.

So Jeff needn't be surprised here that no-one is offering up their services to create the proposed 4.2 base version. Also, this category of "developer" cannot be found in the forum embodied into one person. Head-hunting elsewhere might be an option here.

If the project gets structured in the form of a "leader" who does the herding, plus a committee/developer team I reckon Puppy will not get used as much as it is now and will eventually die off. The only proven system is Barry's informal structure. The Puppy that will really get used is the version(s) that Barry will make in his part-time role - in whatever form they appear.

IMHO any post-Barry leader of the project will need to have a skill set and philosophy very similar to Barry's

Anything short of this and the puppy distro will sink without trace after a protracted dying-off period.

In the meantime. I still say that Lobster makes the best front man for Puppy at least for now. He's the only one who doesn't take himself seriously and has the good humour that the job requires. Any cats with any spare fish, please donate to the worthwhile Puppy cause.

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cb88


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep 2008, 16:58    Post subject:  

well .... regardless of above and past arguments we do have an svn

you can get acces from me by PMing your sourceforge unix account name

all you need to do is figure out how to use it SVN that is i haven't the time between a datastructures in java and engineering statisics

I do however have time to do what very little management is needed with the sourceforge page which up till now is just adding a few people to access it

i have compiled T2 with 686 optimisations and the binaries that i tried out in slackware seem very fast compared to plain slackware so multiple builds will be of interest

a T2 profile to generate a livecd would be very welcome and probably imperative to compete with the likes of the debian livecd remasters which will likely be very fast and have a huge applicaton base

most people are behind either T2 or gnomeslack... IMO T2 doesn't really hurt us since slackware has a pretty pittiful package selection anyway due to the fact that most of its users compile thier own apps on the other hand with T2 we can easily tweak out entire kernel to what ever we want VERY easily and rebuild time is not *that* bad ...like 3.5 days on a dual PII for the piglett base running slackware

FINALLY! what do we need to have on SVN?
3 things at least for now
-piglett T2 profile (will need updating to T2 8.0 when it is released currently we are using T2 8.0 trunk as of late 2007)
-archive of all puppy apps/scripts
-unleashed scripts (might be replaceable by T2 itself) ... plan integration by 5.0?

what do we need other than T2? a source snapshot !!!
it would be much appreciated if someone would download and host a .bz2 or .lzm of the full T2 source not just the basics BEWARE it might get HUGE multi GB of source the puppy base it self is a tar over 1gb!

it might be prudent to wait for the 8.0 release to do this snapshot...

as always these are sugesstions so what do you think?

on a side note slitaz it VERY interesting it claims to boot with only 5 scripts and a config file.... are the boots scripts that tiny in puppy? in anycase we absolutely need better documentation on how barry scripts and how linux boots in general

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2008, 00:32    Post subject:  

My beef isn't about who is in charge or what structure we'll have. It's that we need to actually make known when we're making a decision, and then give people a chance to provide their input.

Quote:
Ttuuxxx has kindly offered to put his considerable energy and diplomatic skills (in development) into 4.2

No one else has shown any inclination
It is very difficult to vote without candidates. Do we have any?
Not that I'm aware, but how long had it been? Three days or so? Besides which, I wasn't even aware that we were making this decision now! I thought we were still trying to pin down how things would work so that we'd be able to make an intelligent decision afterward. Maybe we don't even want to do a coordinator approach. Maybe something completely different would work better. But did we get a chance to discuss it? Maybe for a day or two. Woopdeedoo.

I have a lot of respect for you Lobster, but sometimes you rush things too much. There's a limit to how fast we can go and still keep everybody in the loop. And this is coming from a guy who's favorite fictional character is Sonic the Hedgehog...




Quote:
well .... regardless of above and past arguments we do have an svn

you can get acces from me by PMing your sourceforge unix account name

all you need to do is figure out how to use it SVN that is i haven't the time between a datastructures in java and engineering statisics

Yes we do, I didn't forget that. It will be useful too. But I'm referring to something that can hold the entire Unleashed Tree, which I'm nearly certain is beyond what SourceForge will let us do. I could be wrong of course.

As far as I'm aware, the only reasonably efficient way to have multiple people working on this, while avoiding collisions, maintaining an accurate record of exactly what has changed and who changed it, and making it easy for anybody to follow along, is to put the whole unleashed tree into SVN or GIT. Technically it would probably be most efficient to split the packages directory from the unleashed directory and have them side-by-side on SVN, so that people can checkout the unleashed directory itself without grabbing the data for all 500 packages. Like I said on the thread you started before, the SourceForge SVN would then be used for all the stuff that doesn't fit inside unleashed along with the unique-to-Puppy applications. Things like T2, the P* applications, maybe Pebble 2.0 if I ever get around to that, etc. The Unleashed SVN would include the binaries of those, along with any tweaks needed (different default preferences, etc.) Actual development of the apps would go on at SourceForge, and the binaries could be imported when ready. The misc. scripts in Puppy would only be in the Unleashed tree of course. Just the full-blown applications would be on SF. Things that could actually stand on their own without Puppy, more or less. Especially ones that are using a compiled language, since the Unleashed SVN would not involve source, just as Unleashed doesn't. T2 and the SF repo would take care of that, for now.

If we used GIT, we'd probably want to structure things a little differently. The main advantage I see with GIT is the private branching, which would make it much easier to test stuff without messing with the trunk. That has the drawback of needing somebody to maintain the trunk and handle merging things into it from the various testing branches. That makes me think of the whole Coordinator thing, but this would have stronger technical requirements as he'd need to be able to read through the segments of code and figure out what the two people were doing and how best to combine them... Probably not a big issue with the small number of people that will be involved though.

An aside to Lobster: AFAIK the choices are CVS, SVN and GIT. SVN is basically the next version of CVS. GIT is more distributed than SVN, which has advantages and disadvantages. Might be overkill for Puppy, as I don't think we'll have enough people involved for that to help more than it will hurt. If we did have a lot, I'd vote for it. At the moment I'm leaning more towards SVN since it's simpler to understand and will probably take less work to use. That would also keep things consistent with the SourceForge repo. If you dig up the thread where cb88 announced the SF account for Puppy, I posted more on how I thought this could work.


Back to cb88: And you bring up a good point about combining T2 and Unleashed. I think that integrating T2 into Unleashed is definitely a long term goal we should work towards, assuming with stick with using T2. It would be nice to download something and be able to type make and have it build the default Puppy, fully populate Unleashed, and assemble a new ISO. Having it correct any scripts that need correcting for various kernel configurations would probably be going too far, so things would still need some manual intervention for some customizations, but in general it would be great.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2008, 04:27    Post subject:  

I'm all for T2, I played around with it and it worked nicely, Git on the other hand I only used it once on puppy 4.0, to compile VLC 9.1 After many downloads and tons of time compiling, VLC didn't work.
I have a good feeling its puppy's default compiler. But VLC isn't everything. ttuuxxx

PS It would be nice if we went back to Slackware, I was thinking Ubuntu, but the thing about that, Ubuntu breaks their packages into smaller package sections and they use more dependencies. Thats why slackware, Plus Gslapt is easy to get going on puppy. maybe based on the 12.1?
Just an idea, tossing around

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cb88


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:17    Post subject:  

so what you really saying is that you are lazy and don't really care if you make the best product you can?

you obviously completely ignored my post... slackware is old hat and there really aren't many packages at all for it puppylinux itself seems more active in that area if it weren't for the duplication of efforts (due to non automated package generation due to lack of T2 integration etc...) we would probably far outclass slackware for official packages

with T2 building packages automatically i may be as simple as updating a source link md5 hash and rebuilding the package

@pisszasgood unleashed is pretty much just a set of scripts to create teh packages list and squash the root filesystem and put it on the ISO among a few other things correct? The base core and kernel are usually in unleashed i know but that would be handed off to T2 to generate or we could build default/release versions of unleashed that are just like what we have now

@also at pizzasgood Smile i never intended for binaries to go on sourceforge that would be pretty silly since the whole idea is to get a system going where we can build LOTS of different versions of binaries different optimisations that people can host as thier own truely custom versions of puppy on thier own server space if they want

I guess all the official packages will remain on sourceforge and will be build by someone trustworthy from the default T2 profile then uploaded

also i believe that barry has hinted pretty strongly that an automated build from T2 was kindof in his goals anyway

@ttuuxxx using Slackware as a base may be easy but you have to think of the trade offs... Slackware packages are not easy to get working I know because I use Slackware as my every day system and if there is a lib missing from a package it is a pain in the butt to find and get the right version etc........ so by choosing Slackware you get an easy job of building puppy in you opinion anyway and offload the work onto the extra packagers and the users. I am really skeptical of your *project management* skill since you didn't think that through and you really do lack diplomacy sorry to give you heat here but I just don't agree with you.

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MU


Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:14    Post subject:  

search files:
http://packages.slackware.it/

Enter the name of a lib, check "file name", and you should find it.
Slackware has huge repositories, what is not listed in the official repository, can be found on other sites.
browse:
http://ftp.ntua.gr/pub/linux/slackware/slackware-current/slackware/
ftp://ftp.slackware.org.uk/gsb/gsb-current/gsb/packages/
visit:
http://linuxpackages.net/

And if something is not available, just compile it from source.
In Puppy I often had trouble to compile stuff, this has become much easier, since I replaced almost everything with slackware packages.

Mark

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cb88


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PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:52    Post subject:  

@Mu i am well aware of those and slackware is still lacking Confused

I have often browsed linuxpackages and many other repos for libs...COMPLETE waste of time

think of it this way Debian = {all packages have deps automatically resolved.... 0 wasted time for the user slight overhead on the developer to make sure the deps are available big deal}

slackware = {I have the libs here is a package i made hope it works! then 3 or four dependancies are missing and you are up a creek compiling stuff.... the user has to be able to compile just to use it]

IMO using slackware is just spinning your wheels if you need more than the defaults (which i don't... right now)

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:16    Post subject:  

Unleashed itself is a small jumble of scripts that takes all the packages making up Puppy, combines them into one directory, and builds a squashfs file from that. But the Unleashed Tree is a clean organized way to edit the packages that will be merged to create Puppy. You don't just run T2 and then it builds a Puppy, yet. A lot of manual work goes on between T2 and running Unleashed's createpuppy script. This is the stage I'm talking about putting inside of an SVN or GIT repository.

Eventually, I do hope we have T2 set up such that it will make that middle stage unnecessary. At that point all we'd need is the SVN/GIT repo holding the Puppy-specific T2 stuff. That, I believe, would be fine to do with SourceForge.

But I'm under the impression that that's still a good ways in the future, if it's even a practical thing to do. I may be wrong. I still haven't had a chance to play with T2. Too much real-life stuff at the moment. It's on my near-term todo list, but could still take a month before I get to it. Hopefully more like two weeks.

Quote:
i never intended for binaries to go on sourceforge that would be pretty silly
Exactly. We'd develop the Puppy specific applications there, and we'd put their binaries into the Unleashed tree which would be hosted elsewhere. In the future we'd grab and compile them through T2, making a separate SVN/GIT repo unnecessary.


Assuming we stick with T2. I won't have a real opinion either way until I've used it. But being able to recompile everything, say for a 64-bit architecture or for PowerPC, would be pretty handy I think.

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cb88


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PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:31    Post subject:  

yeah I haven't gotten much past compiling (which is pretty easy with T2)

I wanted to try barrys scripts to build packages but just don't have the resources (time at home or a laptop... not that even haveing a laptop i would still lack time LOL)

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2008, 18:42    Post subject:  

Lob:
It is very difficult to vote without candidates. Do we have any?

Pizzasgood:
Not that I'm aware, but how long had it been? Three days or so?

Over two and a half years since Barry announced his retirement.
During that time a developer with the time and inclination has not yet emerged organically . . .

Just as the numerous attempts for an SVN system have been tried (even implemented - I have tried about 5) but never adopted.

It is why I suggested tick
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=221033#221033

Any news on that from Prithish?

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NathanO

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2008, 20:33    Post subject: 4.2  

Ttuuxxx,

Did my e-mail get to you, been having problems with outgoing e-mail.

If it did not I will post here or PM as you wish.

NathanO
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