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ttuuxxx
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#61 Post by ttuuxxx »

Well since you asked how thing would work with the model I proposed is -
Developers and trusted users who know the inner workings of linux and stay on to of the latest software releases would have a vote on what stay and goes in Puppy.
One developer who nominates himself would produce the base.
The other developers & trusted users would continue their projects. Plus if they would like to compile packages and submit them, They would have to follow strict guidelines, Like all packages must be compiled as i386 or i486 (undecided yet which format, I like the i386 and Barry liked the i486, Ubuntu uses i386, what ever the developers decide) All packages must be tested. etc some sort of documentation.
All major decisions would be decided via a group vote, With a deadline to vote, Maybe voting stations would be open for 2 weeks.
The voting station is basically a locked forum with a poll that developers and trusted users would use to decided things, like 4.2 or a new 5.0 puppy base, built with or without a big brother, or Gxine vs VLC. JWM or Icewm.
Also what should be decided is how often a new series version will be released. Like every 12 or 18 months. Maybe just have updated patch releases like once a month.

The main goal of a coordinator would be to try to keep the releases on schedule, get help where needed, Stay current with the progress of developers, bring new ideas from the forum and other sources to the deveopers attention.
Add up the votes and release the results.
Maybe some P.R. work
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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Pizzasgood
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#62 Post by Pizzasgood »

As far as being leader of Puppy goes, I feel I'm especially unqualified when it comes to the important area of hardware support, about which I know next to nothing. I think I would be well suited for the position if Puppy was an experimental concept OS demonstrating alternative modes of operation. Experimental stuff is the environment where I really feel at home. I don't have that "support for old stuff and average people" mentality that Barry has. Don't get me wrong, I want for Puppy to continue along those lines. But the average person is a mystery to me, and like I said, I'm weak on hardware knowledge.

If it comes down to it, I'll do whatever I gotta do. But I'm really in no big hurry to lead Puppy.
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
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amigo
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#63 Post by amigo »

"i386 or i486" -This is a moot point. Even though there are distros labelled 'i386', they are not really i386 capabale. This has not been possible since since glibc-2.2.
i486 is the standard suggested by the LFSH and other stnadards.

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ttuuxxx
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#64 Post by ttuuxxx »

amigo wrote:"i386 or i486" -This is a moot point. Even though there are distros labelled 'i386', they are not really i386 capabale. This has not been possible since since glibc-2.2.
i486 is the standard suggested by the LFSH and other stnadards.
Ok That makes sense amigo but I'm still a bit confused about something,
If VLC 8.6 package I compiled is 10MB i386 pet, and Barry's Xine is around 3MB i486 pet, But the VLC takes less system resources around 30% less, which would make it more ideally suited towards older pc's. These are test that users have done.

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 0&start=15
Here's a comment (keep in mind the VLC video was 3 times larger :)
"Playing 'Lonesome Day Blues' from MP3 file on the hard disk. This notepad is a Toshiba Portege 3110CT with 128mb ram and a 300mhz processor (a PII).

Did comparison of gzine (with visualisation turned off) and VLC:

Gxine came out at 124% mem use and 38% CPU
VLC looked very good with 86% mem and 3% (sometimes 2%!) CPU usage. Unbelievable?

with some mpg video off a hard drive gxine 130%mem 98%cpu and VLC 112%mem and 89%cpu - but have to say the display at that point from VLC was roughly 3 times the size which makes a difference. plus not jerky like gxine."


ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

bugman

#65 Post by bugman »

Pizzasgood wrote:As far as being leader of Puppy goes, I feel I'm especially unqualified
a leader should be a person who can get the 'experts' to work together

a person who can assuage the competing egos

a person with good common sense

there are some on both sides of the arguments in this thread who would lead puppy development into a dogfight

as well as those of us [including myself and the big shrimp] widely held to be insane :shock:

everyone trusts a man with a pizza :D

cthisbear
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#66 Post by cthisbear »

Wise words bugman.

Plus one of your previous posts.
" one of the best things about puppy has always been that it is
inclusive rather than divisive "

"""""""""""""
Fortunately the Puppy kennel hasn't been sold or
given away to anyone as far as I'm aware.

Much as I have liked your releases ttuuxxx, and your further
contributions....your worst aspect is your ego and judgement.
I wouldn't give you rights as a moderator...
let alone be the top dog in Puppy.

Your hissy fit weeks ago left a lot to be desired.
Then there is the issue of you wanting to ban people
like AJ from the forum.
He's a rotter.....but I likes the boy.
The snide idea by someone earlier to get AJ to
interview you had me laughing.
It's called tolerance...and you don't cut it.

I would rather Puppy die tomorrow than you grab it today.

""""""""""""

Puppy became a success because Barry thought
outside the square.
Square....he thought of other geometric possibilities
and shapes that most people will never see.
And then he painted an impressive canvas.
He wasn't a Renaissance master painter yet,
but his brush resonated with his devotees.

He was the new Texta colour.
"""""""""""""
Interestingly when I looked up Texta from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texta

" The felt tip pen played a major role in the Apollo 11 mission.
Neil Armstrong accidentally broke a circut breaker switch that
was essential to starting the Lunar Lander's engines for lift off
from the moon. The pen was used to activate the switch,
thus starting the engine and saving the Astronauts' lives. "
Neil Armstrong did a Barry.
He didn't see a pen, he saw an escape pod.

Isolation and remoteness....lack of resources...
including money and hardware gave him the
dynamics to seek out a bettter Linux mousetrap.
Earlybirds like Lobster and all the others liked
his approach....and the momentum slowly gathered.

(B - Puppy anchored on a big brother distro )
No way. Stuck in their ways. Old tech.
Crap tech.....Sad tech.

If any offence has been given...well tough.
I don't doubt your skills but rather your motives.
I have wanted to post before but held back.
Interesting that Sage hasn't replied here?

Chris.

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SirDuncan
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#67 Post by SirDuncan »

bugman wrote:everyone trusts a man with a pizza :D
Hmmm . . . I don't seem to have this implicit trust of pizza-bearing men. When an unknown person with a pizza shows up at my door uninvited, he's liable to get a firsthand demonstration of the proper use of the pointy end of my sword. The pizza is obviously a distraction for geeks, like a giant wooden horse is a distraction for Greeks. Now a hedgehog with a pizza, that just oozes trustworthiness.
Pizzasgood wrote:Experimental stuff is the environment where I really feel at home.
Did I just hear someone volunteer for Puppy's R&D division?
raffy wrote:I vote for the young ones to have important roles in the development of Puppy Linux. The really young ones here are students, like Pizzasgood, cb88, SirDuncan,
No matter how we end up organized, I am more than willing to do what little I am able to help with Puppy's continued development.
ttuuxxx wrote: In the past I've mentioned on numerous occasions Maybe Ubuntu Intrepid, as the big brother and then Barry even mentioned that his future project might use that as a Big brother distro.
I kind of like the idea of being binary compatible with a distro with a large repository. The problem I see is that a big brother distro might not be concerned about the size of its packages. We would need to keep our own repository with stripped down packages of popular programs. The big brother repositories would act as a sort of fall back, not unlike what we did with 3.xx and Slackware. Ubuntu/Debian is an obvious choice because of their large repositories. Slackware is also a good choice because of its relatively clean packages.
ttuuxxx wrote:Something else I was thinking about, It would be nice if Puppy kind of stuck with one series for maybe at least 12months maybe be more. It would give it time to mature better.
Yes, I don't think that Barry's pace is maintainable without him. The stability is also a very nice side-effect. 12 months would give us 6 months to work out bugs that weren't found during testing and 6 months to work on and test the next version. That might be too much, or it might be too little. Until we try it for th first time, we won't know.
Be brave that God may help thee, speak the truth even if it leads to death, and safeguard the helpless. - A knight's oath

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MU
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#68 Post by MU »

SirDuncan

good to mention the optimizing issue.
I think, we need a simple user interface, that allows to uninstall unneeded locale.
I just released a chinese update for Muppy.
It is 32 MB extracted, 16 MB is a font.
So there are 16 MB of locale data. And this includes far not all programs.

Currently there are around 30 languages in my locale folders.
So the size of all locale wold increase to 16*30=480 MB.

One consequence for creating optimized Puppy packages would be:
create pets with programs and each language seperated (30 pets for 1 program?) or a utility as mentioned above.

Mark
[url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=173456#173456]my recommended links[/url]

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ttuuxxx
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#69 Post by ttuuxxx »

cthisbear wrote:
Chris.
Cris this is not even close to being a top job, shit everyone would be equals, with a equal voice, How is that a top job? Your totally way off, haven't you read any of my latest post on here? It all has to do with voting as a group, so we would get rid of a dictator for ever. Basically open puppy up to a community vote of trusted knowledgeable people and developers.

ttuuxxx aka Jeff
Last edited by ttuuxxx on Wed 24 Sep 2008, 09:02, edited 1 time in total.
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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MU
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#70 Post by MU »

ttuuxx,
there is no need to react to personal attacs.

There are people who do work, and those who talk about it.
Barry is someone doing work.

You actually do, too.
Barry was sometimes attaced because of this "dictatorship", and you will be attaced, too.
Just ignore it, or you give the attacers even more food.

The Puppy Linux Foundation also was attaced, because it tried to structure things.
If we just would talk about it, we would not reach results.

I'd suggest, to ignore some single personal attacs.
I might not confirm to all ideas you have, but that is just natural.
There is room for discussion, and that is, what you tried to start with this thread.
E.g. I would not like a closed developers area.
I see from the feedback for Muppy, how easily I as developer oversee "obvious" things, as my mind is narrowed in a very technical way.
So everybody should be able to participate in discussions, even those of technical nature.

Mark
[url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=173456#173456]my recommended links[/url]

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ttuuxxx
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#71 Post by ttuuxxx »

MU wrote:ttuuxx,
there is no need to react to personal attacs.

There are people who do work, and those who talk about it.
Barry is someone doing work.

You actually do, too.
Barry was sometimes attaced because of this "dictatorship", and you will be attaced, too.
Just ignore it, or you give the attacers even more food.

The Puppy Linux Foundation also was attaced, because it tried to structure things.
If we just would talk about it, we would not reach results.

I'd suggest, to ignore some single personal attacs.
I might not confirm to all ideas you have, but that is just natural.
There is room for discussion, and that is, what you tried to start with this thread.
E.g. I would not like a closed developers area.
I see from the feedback for Muppy, how easily I as developer oversee "obvious" things, as my mind is narrowed in a very technical way.
So everybody should be able to participate in discussions, even those of technical nature.

Mark
Thanks Mark :wink: you always a great guy.
I'm just trying to do some good for a cause I believe in. To the best of my abilities and bring some sort or structure & organisation to unraveling project.
I removed most of the previous somewhat rude response, I didn't feel right typing it, Just can be really frustrating.
Thanks again
ttuuxxx aka Jeff
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

alcy
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#72 Post by alcy »

This is funny.

I think you'd rather do make install, than make fight here, ttuxxx. I think much more people like you for that.

Talking of alienjeff, lets just say the number of community/forum members increase a lot more, like the number of members on ubuntu forums ...then, there might be more alienjeffs' you can think of...what are you gonna do then, ban all of them ? Get pissed off and quit every now and then, whine about them ?

Man, the whole point of a community is being lost here, if members start taking offense so soon, at such crucial time.
Last edited by alcy on Wed 24 Sep 2008, 09:19, edited 1 time in total.

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ttuuxxx
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#73 Post by ttuuxxx »

The only thing I would like closed is the voting system, to be open to trusted knowledgeable puppy users and developers. The reason why not everyone well, not everybody has knowledge about the internal workings of Linux and votes could be spoiled. we could also have votes on the forum for everyone also and see how different or identical the votes could be. Kind of interesting to think about.
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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MU
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#74 Post by MU »

ttuuxxx wrote:The only thing I would like closed is the voting system, to be open to trusted knowledgeable puppy users and developers. The reason why not everyone well, not everybody has knowledge about the internal workings of Linux and votes could be spoiled. we could also have votes on the forum for everyone also and see how different or identical the votes could be. Kind of interesting to think about.
ttuuxxx
That sounds like a very reasonable approach to me.
Mark
[url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=173456#173456]my recommended links[/url]

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mysticmarks
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votes

#75 Post by mysticmarks »

Although i agree with ttuuxxx about the definative vote being a core group decision, i also believe that the community should voice a response.

Here's a thought. Initially the core gathers the choicest options, then a community poll is run for a given time, say 1 week. After that the core development group privately polls based on the top 2 or 3 off of that list for the final decision.

Simple community involved but ultimately still allowing the most pertinent reasoning and logic to be used.

Community picks a few from a bunch(if there even is a bunch to do that particular task), then the core group singles out our new star.

2 polls, 1 reasonable solution in the end.

Thoughts?

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HairyWill
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#76 Post by HairyWill »

it is good to talk

What does voting mean?
What is your criteria for being allowed to vote?
This forum has over 10,000 members with probably only a few hundred active. If you use forum membership as the voting mechanism then ballots can easily be stuffed. This then destroys the aim of what it was you were trying to achieve in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for democracy, but if we are going to do it then shouldn't we ensure that the process cannot be hijacked.

I would be in favour of electing a small committee (no more than 20 members) on an annual basis and allowing them to make all but major decisions.
Will
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ttuuxxx
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Re: votes

#77 Post by ttuuxxx »

mysticmarks wrote:Although i agree with ttuuxxx about the definative vote being a core group decision, i also believe that the community should voice a response.

Here's a thought. Initially the core gathers the choicest options, then a community poll is run for a given time, say 1 week. After that the core development group privately polls based on the top 2 or 3 off of that list for the final decision.

Simple community involved but ultimately still allowing the most pertinent reasoning and logic to be used.

Community picks a few from a bunch(if there even is a bunch to do that particular task), then the core group singles out our new star.

2 polls, 1 reasonable solution in the end.

Thoughts?
I'm with it as long as every one else is :)
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
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tronkel
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#78 Post by tronkel »

All this discussion about voting worries me. Why vote at all?
In the past, one person, i.e. Barry made all the decisions. These decisions were never questioned because they were always viewed by the community as being correct anyway. I'm talking about base versions here. CEs and revamps are maybe a different story.

There is no avoiding the fact that Barry's stepping-down has left a major hole in the way the Puppy project operates. Building any OS is no task for any "almost" qualified people - even if they are excellent developers per se.

What the Puppy project needs, is someone to whom all major decisions about what the OS build consists of, can be left. This would be the same guy who also does the innovation, the programming and the building. He would be described as Mr Puppy - the buck stops with him. Forget committees and voting.

Where this chief builder of Puppy can be found is not yet clear. Hopefully he can be found somewhere somehow.
Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer

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ttuuxxx
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#79 Post by ttuuxxx »

tronkel wrote:All this discussion about voting worries me. Why vote at all?
In the past, one person, i.e. Barry made all the decisions. These decisions were never questioned because they were always viewed by the community as being correct anyway. I'm talking about base versions here. CEs and revamps are maybe a different story.

There is no avoiding the fact that Barry's stepping-down has left a major hole in the way the Puppy project operates. Building any OS is no task for any "almost" qualified people - even if they are excellent developers per se.

What the Puppy project needs, is someone to whom all major decisions about what the OS build consists of, can be left. This would be the same guy who also does the innovation, the programming and the building. He would be described as Mr Puppy - the buck stops with him. Forget committees and voting.

Where this chief builder of Puppy can be found is not yet clear. Hopefully he can be found somewhere somehow.
Hi tronkel

The problem in the past with Barry for myself was, icons, but 4.0 did improve a lot with the overall look. But the 16x16 icons still need to be changed.
Jwm was never changed,
Seamonkey during Firefox's 2&3&4 series, was just wrong, Firefox was more secure, faster, but didn't have the small email or small web development. as Seamonkey did. Seamonkey has never been the main choice of Linux users, It always been Firefox, But Barry had the voice and only went with opera once because it had email, But if we had a voice at the time, Firefox would of been the main choice by everybody.
If we had another dictator it would be the same. We need a voice and for once and I hope we don't pick firefox 3.0 series, That just doesn't work right in puppy.
But 2.17 does:)
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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playdayz
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Middle Ground?

#80 Post by playdayz »

Would this be a possible middle ground between those who favor a big brother distro and those who favor compiling puppy ourselves. How about putting some energy into making puppy easy to compile for? Then, it seems to me, we would have the advantages of both sides, good availability of programs and programs built for our OS.

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