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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10730
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 10:33    Post subject:  

cb88 wrote:
@bugman how is making it possible to optimise a custom version of puppy for your exact CPU leaveing you behind?

if you have a 486 there not much helping ya but say a PII would benefit greatly or even a plain pentium could benefit

how many people are using 486 hardware anyway the ebox users and who else?

also bugman you could put a sign in your yard ... wanted semi dead zombie 'puters

@caneri and ttuuxxx were you guys trying to download the T2 source cache in ram ROFL just the base for puppy is 1GB+ the WHOLE thing is multigb i imagine


Cb88 I have 4gigs of ddr2 800 ram plus a 20gig swap,and 1.8 terabytes of hard drive space, I lol I overkill my puppy and always compile live.
ttuuxxx Smile

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playdayz


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 3788

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 10:54    Post subject: NO!  

Quote:
Seamonkey during Firefox's 2&3&4 series, was just wrong, Firefox was more secure, faster, but didn't have the small email or small web development. as Seamonkey did. Seamonkey has never been the main choice of Linux users, It always been Firefox, But Barry had the voice and only went with opera once because it had email, But if we had a voice at the time, Firefox would of been the main choice by everybody.


No ttuuxxx. I cannot accept this. Puppy was/is Barry's project and it was/is his perrogative to do anything he wanted/wants to do with it. I believe strongly that nobody else was owed any choice in the matter of what he included or didn't iinclude. He did listen to people; I know that. But the final choice was/is his, for whatever reasons he wanted, and whether or not he chose to publicize those reasons. (It doesn't even matter that there were some very good reasons to use Seamonkey--it was Barry's call, pure and simple.)
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
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Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 11:00    Post subject: Re: NO!  

playdayz wrote:
Quote:
Seamonkey during Firefox's 2&3&4 series, was just wrong, Firefox was more secure, faster, but didn't have the small email or small web development. as Seamonkey did. Seamonkey has never been the main choice of Linux users, It always been Firefox, But Barry had the voice and only went with opera once because it had email, But if we had a voice at the time, Firefox would of been the main choice by everybody.


No ttuuxxx. I cannot accept this. Puppy was/is Barry's project and it was/is his perrogative to do anything he wanted/wants to do with it. I believe strongly that nobody else was owed any choice in the matter of what he included or didn't iinclude. He did listen to people; I know that. But the final choice was/is his, for whatever reasons he wanted, and whether or not he chose to publicize those reasons. (It doesn't even matter that there were some very good reasons to use Seamonkey--it was Barry's call, pure and simple.)


It was kind of good that he did use Seamonkey, because that made a explosion of variants and furthered on puppy development inadvertently. First thing I changed in all my Variants was Seamonkey and most others did also.Smile Just because we could Wink
That was always a main topic about a year ago, "how to install Firefox "
Now its "How to uninstall Firefox 3.0"
LOL ttuuxxx

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HairyWill


Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 2949
Location: Southampton, UK

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 11:38    Post subject:  

tronkel wrote:
All this discussion about voting worries me. Why vote at all?
...
What the Puppy project needs, is someone to whom all major decisions about what the OS build consists of, can be left. This would be the same guy who also does the innovation, the programming and the building. He would be described as Mr Puppy - the buck stops with him. Forget committees and voting.

Where this chief builder of Puppy can be found is not yet clear. Hopefully he can be found somewhere somehow.
Yup voting has all sorts of problems.
What are the criteria for being allowed to vote?
Should MU receive the same voting rights as joenewbie?
Who do you trust as returning officer?
What is the mechanism for voting?
Does this mechanism have a cost that causes a barrier to inclusion?

None of these consider the problems of managing a project whose direction is determined by the popular vote.

Considering that you don't have a 'chief builder' in mind I wouldn't fancy holdng my breath waiting for one to turn up that matches your criteria and wants the job.

What should puppy do next?
ttuuxxx wrote:
The problem in the past with Barry for myself was, icons
We clearly have very different views on what puppy's priorities should be, and that is fine.

As puppy has progressed it has gradually started to include the small connecting features of daemons, services, widgets, status monitors and other tools that eat your cpu cycles on both windows and many major linux distros. One of the reasons that early puppies ran well on minimal hardware was because they passed responsibility for these functions onto the end user.
If you wanted to mount a partiton, then you had to start MUT and do it yourself
If you wanted to know the state of your battery then you had to load the right models and cat /proc/acpi/batteryBAT0/state
I wonder what difference these things make to the minimum effective hardware.
How much cpu do you save by having a black desktop background?
There is a compromise here between having a distro which is highly efficient but is hard to use unless you have a good level of understanding and between having one that 'just works' for someone who is clueless. I do appreciate that the expert can always find ways of turning this stuff off but often it is less effort to stump up for a couple of hundred extra Hz of cpu cycles.
Does anyone fancy building a "service manager" to control CUPS, pup_event, volume control, freemem, blinky, battery monitor, ROX pinboard, xload.

A Different Model
How about this? Barry gives the rights to use the puppy name to a number of people who have been releasing genuinely innovative (at the fundamental level) puplets for a while. Each of these people can release a version whenever they like. The people I have in the back of my mind would be capable of agreeing version numbers (names) amongst themselves. They have previously demonstrated the ability to release high quality supported puplets. These people have previously incororated cutting edge bits of other peoples's work into their own releases. There would be no pressure on them to release versions on any paticular timescale.

This would in effect lead to a number of cross-fertilising forks that were all allowed to use the official puppy name (if they wanted to). I suspect that these people will just do their own thing anyway, they have a history forging frontiers one their own regardless I would just like to do my best to support them in their efforts.

playdayz wrote:
Puppy was/is Barry's project and it was/is his perrogative to do anything he wanted/wants to do with it. I believe strongly that nobody else was owed any choice in the matter of what he included or didn't iinclude.
I agree strongly, but I don't really want to put a dfferent person in a similar postion with someone else's baby.
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
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Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 12:09    Post subject:  

HairyWill wrote:
tronkel wrote:


Where this chief builder of Puppy can be found is not yet clear. Hopefully he can be found somewhere somehow.
Yup voting has all sorts of problems.
What are the criteria for being allowed to vote?
Should MU receive the same voting rights as joenewbie?
Who do you trust as returning officer?
What is the mechanism for voting?
Does this mechanism have a cost that causes a barrier to inclusion?


Well Hairy I state my idea on the voting thing a few times
When you make a forum thread you have an option having a poll included. That poll is basically a voting room. If we have a locked forum where only select people can enter and vote. That way we don't get any joe-blows messing up our totals, Plus you can't rig the vote and you can visit the locked forum anytime time and see how the poll/voting is going. I think its simple yet efficient and secure.
Plus we would have the same poll in the forum for everybody to vote and see how they differ.
Probably would only be around 20 people or so.

Also when I made the icons remark is because I design a lot of the graphics I use myself and some of the default 16x16 icons look like that belong on windows 3.1. Graphics are really a part of what I like to do, So when I see something that looks dated, I feel like it should be changed.
Actually right now I'm trying to get a Job teaching Graphics at the local Tafe. The same one where I got my I.T diploma.

I wasn't trying to put down the development of puppy what so ever, When I look at puppy and the main programs included such a large amount of the programs are from developers, probably more on here then any other Linux distro. Thats what I like about puppy the most, the unique programs, it gets you thinking about code, and makes you want to learn more.
ttuuxxx

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HairyWill


Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 2949
Location: Southampton, UK

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 12:26    Post subject:  

ttuuxxx wrote:
Well Hairy I state my idea on the voting thing a few times
When you make a forum thread you have an option having a poll included. That poll is basically a voting room. If we have a locked forum where only select people can enter and vote. That way we don't get any joe-blows messing up our totals, Plus you can't rig the vote and you can visit the locked forum anytime time and see how the poll/voting is going. I think its simple yet efficient and secure.
Plus we would have the same poll in the forum for everybody to vote and see how they differ.
Probably would only be around 20 people or so.
That works for the elected comittee to make decisions, they could also do this by emails (with digital signatures) or would hopefully be reasonable enough to just come to an agreement. It does not solve the problem of how you elect those people in the first place or whether your electorate is qualified or entitled to vote for the committee.
ttuuxxx wrote:
Also when I made the icons remark is because I design a lot of the graphics I use myself and some of the default 16x16 icons look like that belong on windows 3.1. Graphics are really a part of what I like to do, So when I see something that looks dated, I feel like it should be changed.
thats cool, your priority not mine. I'm more interesed in function than form, more descriptive icons have a HCI usability benefit so I think changing icons to make their function more clear is a good thing to do.
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
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Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 12:35    Post subject:  

HairyWill wrote:
ttuuxxx wrote:
Well Hairy I state my idea on the voting thing a few times
When you make a forum thread you have an option having a poll included. That poll is basically a voting room. If we have a locked forum where only select people can enter and vote. That way we don't get any joe-blows messing up our totals, Plus you can't rig the vote and you can visit the locked forum anytime time and see how the poll/voting is going. I think its simple yet efficient and secure.
Plus we would have the same poll in the forum for everybody to vote and see how they differ.
Probably would only be around 20 people or so.
That works for the elected comittee to make decisions, they could also do this by emails (with digital signatures) or would hopefully be reasonable enough to just come to an agreement. It does not solve the problem of how you elect those people in the first place or whether your electorate is qualified or entitled to vote for the committee.
ttuuxxx wrote:
Also when I made the icons remark is because I design a lot of the graphics I use myself and some of the default 16x16 icons look like that belong on windows 3.1. Graphics are really a part of what I like to do, So when I see something that looks dated, I feel like it should be changed.
thats cool, your priority not mine. I'm more interesed in function than form, more descriptive icons have a HCI usability benefit so I think changing icons to make their function more clear is a good thing to do.


On Barry's Blog he posted a list of developers and trusted people, I think that could be a start Smile
Then we could just elect new people who show a positive ongoing contribution to the puppy project if they show interest in joining the cause.
ttuuxxx

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SirDuncan


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 12:55    Post subject:  

I'd like to have more appealing graphics, but performance is a higher priority in my book. What about using vector graphics for our icons? They scale well and we could use them for both the menu and the desktop. I think they take up less space than the larger non-vector icons, too. It would save space and look good. Of course, that's assuming that ROX and JWM can use vector graphics.
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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 13:33    Post subject:  

cb88 wrote:
@bugman how is making it possible to optimise a custom version of puppy for your exact CPU leaveing you behind?


i may have missed something there

on the other hand, i have not had much luck with newer kernels and even alsa

don't forget to keep the downloads small, there is at least one regular release i could not get [might have been the one i sent barry $ for]

whinge, whinge, whinge
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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 13:34    Post subject:  

muggins wrote:
Bugman driving a car! Absolute heresy...Bugman flying an autogyro...that's what I imagine.

Quote:
Look up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane!
It's Superbugman!


oh, i can already fly

[very short distances]
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polymath

Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 15:18    Post subject:  

I think that barry could pick an advisory committee and then we should let them deal with everything.

Besides, most of the people arguing about this (read: nearly everyone except me), is probably one of the people barry would select in his advisory committee anyway, so why argue. If you let barry decide who votes, if anyone, then it would solve the argument. Those who want barry to call all the shots would get what they want, and those who want voting would get a voting class.

Gosh, the hardest part about all of this is getting all of the RDBMS stuff sorted out to add new voting attributes to all the tables of users, and then lock the threads.
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cb88


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 1169
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 15:20    Post subject:  

@bugman it shouldn't be too hard to compile older kernels and having an automated build system makes building stuff to support whatever hardware less of a pain

also the source is the thing that is HUGE

the base will probably get even smaller maybe even like slitaz but that is just speculation on my part

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big_bass

Joined: 13 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 16:39    Post subject:  

Quote:
HairyWill wrote:
I suspect that these people will just do their own thing anyway, they have a history forging frontiers one their own regardless I would just like to do my best to support them in their efforts.



HairyWill

You should go for it PM those in the back of your mind and offer your support

who ever gets you on their team will be blessed

and that will filter back into the mix

big_bass
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 19:31    Post subject:  

Quote:
Barry gives the rights to use the puppy name to a number of people who have been releasing genuinely innovative (at the fundamental level) puplets for a while. Each of these people can release a version whenever they like. The people I have in the back of my mind would be capable of agreeing version numbers (names) amongst themselves. They have previously demonstrated the ability to release high quality supported puplets. These people have previously incorporated cutting edge bits of other people's work into their own releases. There would be no pressure on them to release versions on any particular timescale.


That is a good idea


I am pleased that Barry will be providing guidelines - this from the release notes in the 4.1rc

Adieu
I have decided to bow out from my position as leader (also known as "Benevolent Dictator") of the Puppy Linux Project (held since I released v0.1 in mid-2003), and take a back seat. Version 4.1 is my final release as leader. A small group of trusted developers will take over, although the details are still to be worked out -- there are a couple of threads on the forum discussing this.
I won't be going away totally, and plan to focus on a "puplet" (derivative of Puppy) based on my "UniPup" concept and targeting specific hardware, probably one or more of the baby laptops. This will be a more part-time project than the hectic full-time pace that I have maintained over the last couple of years.
It is likely that I will keep working on some aspects of the "core" or "base" Puppy, primarily for my puplet but that will be useful for the mainstream Puppy.
Also, I will retain whatever copyright/trademark rights I currently have and continue with ownership of the puppylinux.com and puppylinux.org domain names. Plus, I will provide input to how and who takes over, hopefully without interfering too much. I see this as providing a kind of safeguard function -- I am mindful of other distros that have languished after the Benevolent Dictator left. Monitor my blog for updates on the transitional phase as I progressively retire.
I think this is a great opportunity, and Puppy will become better and better!

Best regards,
Barry Kauler
www.puppylinux.com

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Caneri

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep 2008, 20:24    Post subject:  

Hooray for Barry!!

Well done..well said.

Best,
Eric

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