Who's in charge?

[Nathan F]

All right, I have a few minutes before work and I'll try to make this courteous this morning. After that, I'm pretty much done with this particular thread.

Ecomoney - Yes, it is a shame I was gone so long and missed so much. I am sure you have made many valuable contributions and many wonderful packages. As I said, I'd be glad to try and start over on my first impressions here and give you the same fair shake I give anybody else. I will even be HOPEFUL that, should I find the time to be a more regular contributor again, we might work together on some projects and have a good working relationship. I may have a much shorter fuse these days, but I'm generally still the same nice guy I used to be.

What I do want to point out is that, even in your last post, you felt compelled to point out that I'm missing your contributions and perhaps not playing fair with you. Maybe I'm not, but this is exactly the wrong way to try and get me to revise the opinion I've come to. If you do indeed do a lot of good work then I'll eventually see that for myself, but for now please stop *saying* so. And even with that, some of the nastiness is inexcusable. And I will say right off, which *may* ease your mind somewhat, many of what I consider the worst personal attacks lately were launched AT you, not BY you. I'm not an idiot and I do see that.

Whodo - Thanks mate, for a job basically well done, for your kind words, and for answering me directly even though I'm sure you're tired of that particular question. I can well understand the decision not to continue. I well know the sheer volume of work for one thing.

Barry - I really do appreciate the clarification. I've downloaded the latest upup and it's devx file. If it generally suits I'll do a hd install sometime soon and go from there. I've already tried 4.2 and I do generally like it, but I want to start out a bit more current I think.

I do kind of wonder at how you can be considered retired though, when you still seem to work harder and longer than anyone else on Puppy. If anything, you must be working harder than ever.

Nathan

[ttuuxxx]

but I AM tempted to change my mind just to p!$$ ecomoney right off!
.

Yes Please do we can call it "Puppy Linux 4.3, PERO Release"
lol ttuuxxx

[tronkel]

ttuuxxx wrote:

Yes Please do we can call it "Puppy Linux 4.3, PERO Release"

LOL that's a wonderful name!

WhoDo you must stay on as co-ordinator until that gets released - so you can get to see that release in bright lights and can say to yourself "I did that!"

[Lobster]

those on the newly formed "council" want me back

Warren 2.15 and now 4.2.1 would not have happened without your efforts

Puppy 5.xx is our biggest challenge
http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki/developm ... y-5-kennel
and Barry has made it clear with his Woof Upuptu support that Woof can be the basis . . .

If it takes a temporary council to ensure a quality coordinator for Puppy 5
I vote for you as Chairman with the ability to appoint council members

If that is seconded, I will set up a wiki page and thread and we are
a PC (Puppy Council)

I am a Mac
I am a PC
We are Puppy

[01micko]

Lobster said

If it takes a temporary council to ensure a quality coordinator for Puppy 5
I vote for you as Chairman with the ability to appoint council members

If that is seconded, I will set up a wiki page and thread and we are
a PC (Puppy Council)

seconded

[trio]

tripled it

[ttuuxxx]

I Still think puppy 5.0 should have different releases and not just Upup, I'm still really happy with Dpup, really are we going to shoot out the door all the work thats been done on the others? Maybe we should split them up, Tronkel and I could take Dpup, Barry can have Jpup, Bigbass if he wanted could have Spup, but he does kind of has his own Slackware version based on 4.12, etc.
This is how I see the repo should be like
http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/dis ... ckages-5D/

http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/dis ... ckages-5J/

http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/dis ... ckages-5S/

http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/dis ... ckages-5U/

etc one for each woof version
ttuuxxx

[Lobster]

Puppy Council in session
Warren Willson (WhoDo) presiding as acting Chairperson
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 282#300282

[01micko]

Congratulations WhoDo!

Your are now Chairman of the PC.

First order of business... NathanF, you have your answer.

[aragon]

at our actual situation PC seems to be the best direction.

one note: as there have been some discussions on the actual state of woof (alpha?), the need/interest on 4.3 (based on unleashed?) and such points, maybe it would also be a job for the council to clear the future? of 4*-series.

aragon

[01micko]

at our actual situation PC seems to be the best direction.

one note: as there have been some discussions on the actual state of woof (alpha?), the need/interest on 4.3 (based on unleashed?) and such points, maybe it would also be a job for the council to clear the future? of 4*-series.

aragon

Well, without elaborating too much, Lobster seems to be up to date with most things Puppy, perhaps he should be secretary of PC.

Ok then, I nominate Lobster, (Ed Jason) for secretary of Puppy Council.

[raffy]

The question here is "Who's in charge?" And WhoDo wanted it to be a council, specifically one that Pizzasgood mentioned in the past (?).

Let's make things easy for WhoDo by waiting until the council is formed before naming the coordinator. Perhaps a word from Pizzasgood is in order?

Having said this, allow me to insert my own view by identifying kernel compilers, Puppy/unleashed users, and application developers as possible council members. That would include:
- MU
- dougal
- ttuuxxx
- zigbert
- tronkel
- big_bass
- wow
- aragon
- wolf pup
- slapshot
- technosaurus
- growler
- tronkel

This is an incomplete list, based on my quick recall. Also, being currently active in the forum is perhaps a second criterion for getting names into the council (but the first criterion above will have to be satisfied first).

[ttuuxxx]

I have a bad feeling about Council's, either I'm going to have to do a lot of butt kissing, or I'm going to get responses like "no ttuuxxx you can't remove most of the gtkdialog programs and replace them, with others you found" or "No ttuuxxx you can't ditch ugly flat themes" or "no ttuuxx you shouldn't do this and that" lol It will be a Jail I tell you, a Jail. lol
ttuuxxx

I vote against a Council, and leave it up to Barry, any seconds? Thirds? lol aaaaa Rats.
lol

[trio]

Isn't the council's job is to elect the coordinator and team? So, people in the concil should not be the same people.

And that would answer ttuuxxx concern also, when team is formed then business as usual, right?

Or, I should not make comments since it will be taken for granted anyway..just kidding..

[bugman]

"No ttuuxxx you can't ditch ugly flat themes"

no ttuuxxx you CAN'T ditch ugly flat themes

[they're my favorite]

i didn't know there was more than one, actually, must find more . . .

[ttuuxxx]

"No ttuuxxx you can't ditch ugly flat themes"

no ttuuxxx you CAN'T ditch ugly flat themes

[they're my favorite]

i didn't know there was more than one, actually, must find more . . .

here's 2, one is a default in woof.
http://jebajq8.googlepages.com/JQ8flat.pet
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... h&id=17240
ttuuxxx

[ecomoney]

Yes Nathan, I can see that you have been tossed about by the waves of fortune (I had a similar experience myself), when the world outside puppy catches up and you have housing, income, food etc to think about first. It happened to me recently when I lost everything and had to start from scratch. It can change a person, if they allow, when they have been through that so I do empathise with you.

Why do I do all this when I can earn ten times what I do in a year by using windows (and I have the payslips to prove it)? Its because I know that Puppy Linux is a singularly useful piece of technology to mankind...?

I can go into someones house to fix their computer, and its (mostly) working and on the net before they can even make me a coffee. It will never slow down, or have I known it catch ever catch a virus or reveal anyones personal information. It has the same level of security (encrption technology) as a U.S. secret service document. Instead of a computer being slow and obselete after four years, its still useful, with the correct knowledge, at twelve years....meaning that theoretically three times the number of people can own and benefit from having one.

Why are computers "A benefit"l? Because the internet is the only Media we have where the communication is two-way. People can post information, it can be verified, and the truth (and the whole truth) ascertained. People can use it to check up on and support politicians if they wish (i.e. Obama), research the issues, form shared opinions, co-ordinate re-action, and make informed personal choices in their lives. The control of this mechanism should NOT be left to a large, profit making, Bush-funding corporation like Micro$oft.

In short a computer is a tool for free speech, education and society building. Puppy Linux allows anyone to participate in this FOR FREE. A little "open dissent" is what the world, and puppy, needs at the moment for it to become a better place.

My role in puppy I see not to create packages, but to use Puppy in a real world environment (schools, charities, homes, businesses) and report what I have seen back to the puppy development team, and encourage them by showing them what can be achieved from their "hobby". If I had to say I was any body part in particular (and Ive been likened to a few) I would say Im Puppies EYES and EARS.

The recent "open dissent" on the forum (which I have been embroiled in, for free, at the expense of my own work), stemmed from his (sole and undiscussed) decision to include an newly compiled and untested versions of Abiword, Seamonkey and CUPS by Ttuxxx. As a real-world tester for puppy, I installed the early versions of 4.2 Deepthought on the computers of the people around me in my typical middle sized town, and watched for results. The bugs that were introduced as a result had DIRECT and REAL WORLD consequences on their wealth, quality of life, and even in one case her ability to house herself. As puppy is now a very popular linux distribution, those negative experiences will have been repeated around the world, by a large number of the most needy people, who just *need* to use their computer as a tool to assist them in their lives.

I reported back to the forum, with some testing to identify exactly where the faults lied, and recommended that these packages be "rolled back" to their "just works" versions, or that the quickly available fixes be appied to the major issues (and web browsing, printing and wordprocessing ARE major issues to most computer users)....and a new 4.2.1 edition be released ASAP. This could have easily been done within a few days (Ive seen you do it BarryK), and prevented a lot of people a lot of problems. Other less serious/critical bugs -to our users- could have been fixed with a further, more relaxed 4.2.2 edition.

This is written here. I was angry (which I put), but I kept my request civil and polite. What I was not prepared for, and have been completely shocked and surprised by, was the strength of reaction to this simple, reasonable and much-needed request. I suggest you read it above.

First, WhoDo and Tuxxx denied that not being able to open a word document created on M$ Word was a bug, then that because there were a few fonts that (if changed, not the origional ones) would display the document (a very crude IMHO "workaround" that would not be intuitive to the average puppy user). Points were then put that because Puppy is Free software, and its developers are largely unpaid, they dont have any kind kind of moral responsibility to ensure that it works as well as it can. Ttuxx then posted a few messages with language I wont repeat directed AT me, so I sent him a Private Message back using the same language (not AT him) to say such language didnt bother me, but he shouldnt post it on the forum. It was the first time I had seen cusswords on here, though theyre pretty common now.

Anyway, it was mentioned that me pointing out these problems and their urgency might detract from any enthusiasm, so I switched to PM'ing whodo directly with my concerns. We exchanged what I thought was a few aimiable messages and stories of shared experiences. WhoDo explained he had a few important things going on "in real life" right then, and had little time to do an update. I then offered to co-ordinate a bugfix release myself and test it, which was refused (in a sterner tone). Finally I let him know (in advance) that if he wasnt to act to my concerns, I would take them back out onto the forum where hopefully I could generate enough interest/momentum to actually get the bugs fixed. By this time Ttuxxx had already created a bugfixed ISO, but had left out the usability features that Puppys new users need (pWidgets) because he had (quite publicly) stated he didint want them in 4.2, and seems to have some problem (now deleted by mods) with its developer Zigbert about "ownership" of puppies new shutdown dialogue. Fixing the problem would have meant simply adding pWidgets back in, changing the version number and re-uploading...something Ttuxxx said he could do "blindfolded".

When I got back to my computer, If found this post/poll, where Whodo claimed I was "Threatening" him, and that he would "step down" if I continued. He also quoted sections of my private messages (out of context) publicly on his post. I explained I didnt want him to leave, I wanted him to produce a quick bugfix edition. Ttuxxx then produced puppy "Shut up ecomoney" edition, with pWidgets added back in, which demonstrated just how easy it would have been to fix the still as now unfixed bugs, but I dont think realised my concern wasnt for my clients/computer, but for all of puppies users, and that it should form a 4.2.1 bugfix. Ttuxxx was accused by then by Whodo of giving in to my "Terrorist tactics", and there was no way he was uploading it.

I also invited suggestions on the forum here into how bugs (and situations) like this could be avoided in future. A lot of good suggestions (and one in particular by Ttuxxx) were given, and the forum structure changed by PG so as to better track bugs. "Debate" has continue to rage here as well.

Right, well here we are, still talking over the same things a month later with no bugfix produced. Im not getting my work done, and neither is the development team. If Im "painting myself so bright", where did I go wrong that I did not achieve my aim of getting a relatively more stable, usable and bugfixed 4.2.1 edition available to puppies users? Where did I go wrong. Clearly I didnt realise the personalities of the people involved.

Whodo, it seems is the type of person to put considerably more effort into denying problems than fixing problems. If someone tries to (in his mind) tell him what to do, then he does the exactly the opposite to assert his perceived "authority". When his actions are questioned, he see's this as an attack on his credibility, and he attacks back. When a fault is pointed out, he denies its a problem.

Are these really the personality traits of Puppies new leader?

Ive given my background, and now I would like to know a little about WhoDo's. I understand he has project management experience, but apart from 2.15CE has little experience in software project management (open or closed). His experience with Puppy Linux "in the real world" amounts to using it recycling computers in a mandatory Government work programme for the unemployed....where its "volunteers" are forced to be there and participate by threat of hunger and homelessness, where his opinion rules supreme, and where one tick of his pen would mean not having food on the table the next week. I have experience of these too, through my circumstances.

Basically...there are too many "government men" out there causing problems, to have one in here not solving them too.

Does puppy need some sort of structure to better achieve its aims? Hell yes...but that structure needs to be defined and organised by its own contributors....developers, co-ordinators and users. Any structure defined and policy made would have to be born out of a cold hard look at Puppy Linux, the people in charge in the world around it, and the people involved in the puppy linux project itself. Managing something as useful to mankind as puppy linux shouldnt be a "hobby", it should be a "Mission".

Q. Would I be on any "council" (since you raise it whodo)?

A. If I were asked....I believe I have a large amount of background, qualifications and real world experience that would help make Puppy a better OS yes. WhoDoesnt?


Q. Would it be a good idea if I were to be on it?

A. With the opinions others hold of me/negative publicity Ive received at the moment definitely not. That decision would drive more developers from puppy.


Q. If the bad decision were made to have me anywhere near the "council", would I work with WhoDo?

A. Yes, if my experience would go into making a better Puppy Linux


Q. Do I think WhoDo should be on any Council

A. He's not shown himself qualified in my experience to deal with dissent or opposing opinions this job would entail. There are none more qualified to lead a collaborative project than those who expect their every wish to be fulfilled by it, and none of their decisions questioned.

Right....Im going back to work now, got some real-world projects to finish off...or am I already at work?

[Sylvander]

It would be nice to write a sort of job description for the chair person and members of the council.
e.g.
1. The chairperson job is not so much to make decisions himself, but rather to see that the council is positive, efficient and effective in expressing their honestly held ideas of the best way forward, and giving effect to those in the decisions made.
He/she should be an enabler who pushes things forward, whilst applying the rules to prevent/eliminate any tendency to descend into chaotic wrangling.

2. Council members are there to:
(a) Be positive and effective.
(b) Contribute ideas that they honestly believe to be the best way forward for the short and/or long term.
(c) When they feel the urge to act in a way motivated by emotion rather than by intellect, to restrain themselves, and when that fails, to defer to the control by the chair, or suffer the consequences.

3. Some written rules of non-permitted behavior, and on the resulting consequences, would be a good idea.
These could be produced by someone not on the council and not under the influenced of anyone currently on the council. [Barry?]
Possibly amended/perfected by that person after observing the work of the council.

[WhoDo]

...

[trio]

...

when I see the two of you more and more, I am starting to get the "funny and light" side of your dispute..

ROTFL