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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects » Next Puppy Development
Suggestions for the section "Next Puppy Development"
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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 01:19    Post subject:  

Requests for forum modifications need to be routed through John Murga himself, not me. I only have the power to change settings, add new sections, etc. Only John has enough access to install new things.

As for your comment on problem apps - yes, ideally by the time something is released there would be no more problem apps. I meant more in terms of the alphas/betas, before the problems have been corrected.

And anyway, when I think of it, Abiword isn't that much of a problem app. It's been mentioned over and over, which is why I said that, but there were only actually three problems or so.

(Not saying anything about the severity of those issues, only number....)

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
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Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 01:34    Post subject:  

From another thread:
ecomoney wrote:
Ive made a request that additional forum sections be added, under "Feature Requests", and "Change Requests" headings to the "Next Puppy Development".

Well, I think "* Requests" are already covered by the overall "Suggestions" section. I'm trying to avoid too much duplication.

But I believe you're aiming for a section where you can post usability issues that don't qualify as bugs by most of the people here, right? So why not a "Usability Issues" section? Although I'm in favor of things like multiple virtual desktops by default, I do agree that you had a valid point - it just doesn't belong in Bugs.


I mentioned a "Usability Issues" section before, but I don't believe I saw any feedback? Good idea, bad idea?
(If there was feedback and I missed it, I apologize. I've been fairly sleep deprived for the last couple days. Gonna go fix that shortly.)

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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5445
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 01:52    Post subject:  

The "usability issues" section is a good idea.Actual "bugs" need to be segregated so the reports won't get lost in a sea of other things.

Usability issues need to be addressed but the actual "bugs" need priority and by being easily accesslble they can hopefully be rectified quicker.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 01:58    Post subject:  

Thanks for Reading PG,

New package versions I think would be better to come from existing .pets that have been tested already on puppy. For example, if a .pet of Abiword with .docx had been released to these two guys who requested it then the bug with it would have been picked up there, before it had been included in 4.2. But I digress....

A "usability issues" section (rather than a generic "Suggestions") box would be a very good idea for the main forum (as we are a distro that prides itself on it usability by "Puppy Newbs"). That makes a lot of sense, im sorry I didnt read it before PG

But for "Next Puppy development"?, this needs to be a list of bugs/changes/features, for which there is the most urgent need from our users to be addressed. IMHO we definitely need those three, and then some way of assessing what is "urgent" or not to go in the "Next Puppy Development" section....

Basically, anything that stops Puppy Linux benefiting more people is "urgent".

I will have a chat with John Murga about the possibility of adding phpbb mods, which ones will have to be the subject of another thread Rolling Eyes

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drongo


Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 353
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 04:50    Post subject: Logical fallacies and Puppy development
Subject description: Argumentum ad populum
 

I have been using Puppy Linux since before version 1.0 (I even had a question on the old forum about low RAM machines.)

Developers come and go but one thing remains constant. There are always people on the Forum who assume that they have a unique insight into the way forward or the best new features. The shakier the ground they are standing on the louder they shout or the more persistently they repeat their requests over and over again. They drag their hobby-horses into unrelated threads, Barry's blog or wherever.

You can usually recognise these posts by appeals to (possibly non-existant) majorities. They are peppered with phrases such as "most users", "most newbies", "many PMs from satisfied users", "the majority of Puppians", "most people" etc.

I'm not particularly having a go at ecomoney here - he is far from alone in this behaviour.

I am an electronics engineer (actually a broadcast engineer for most of my working life.) Nearly all of my friends are engineers. The company I work for has lots of hardware developers, software developers, testers, systems engineers etc. Whilst I do have dealings with non-engineers at work probably 95% of my time is spent talking to, e-mailing or in some other way interacting with other engineers.

Everyone I have ever given a Puppy disk to has been an engineer. All but two of the people I have ever shown it to have been engineers. I have never, ever installed Puppy on a single computer although I sometimes use pupsave files. Most of the time I just play around with Puppy, but I also use it as a rescue disk and virus remover for XP and Windows Server installations.

So I'd like to state with great authority that nobody ever installs Puppy, whether frugally or fully and nobody uses multi-session. In my experience everyone who uses it is an electronics engineer or software developer. And nobody is scared of a command line interface.

It's primary purpose is a learning OS which can be used as a recovery tool.

That's what Puppy is and that's the way it must stay.

Anyone who disagrees with me could you back up your counter arguments with some real statistics rather than vague appeals to the masses? Probably best to read Darrell Huff's famous book first.

I don't care if there are 1,420,000 entries on Google. How do we know it isn't five requests pointed to 284,000 times each by Google's search algorithm? As I have already proved, nobody installs Puppy anyway, so the 100, 000, 000 users who aren't installing it are perfectly happy with the current installer.

Lets have some decent discussions based on logical thinking rather than bogus statistics. And don't forget us poor engineers, we love CLI, it makes us look intelligent.

Very Happy
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 10:22    Post subject:  

@Drongo Ok, I get it, Im not going to be able to use the term "most" users/people/puppiers/developers/engineers. I think also when you use the term "nobody"/"Anybody" and "nobody ever", you should back it up by being able to say you've only given it to engineers (bar 2). Puppy is used in a great many ways, and it makes a great engineering tool. Your gonna have to have a lot of data to go on to argue against google!

My use of Puppy is generally different, and I can see many others use it in different ways, and its important they are accommodated too. I recognize this.Thats why everyone that uses puppy, for whatever purpose, has the ability to contribute things they wish to see for the next edition....not only a "Council".

In this case there would be no conflict, as a "redesigned to make it easier for newbs "installer wouldnt be any bigger, and wouldnt mean you would have to lose any of your engineering tools. I actually believe one of the ways of making Puppy more popular overall would be to include engineers tools. ([url]=http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=24751like this one I suggested[/url]). Puppy already has many already. This is a good thing.

"Engineers" advise others users what OS to use, their word is trusted by newbs/users. A Windoze engineer, presented with a broken XP computer has two options, spend 4 1/2 hours (insert own estimate here) of sheer hell on earth installing XP/Vista, or a twenty minute job installing Puppy Linux easily.....what are they gonna prefer?

Since over 9 out of ten computers in the world are still running with a Micro$oft OS (which breaks "frequently") then that makes sense if we wish more people to use Linux...

Back on topic...

Yes, if we make statements, and quote in general terms, we really need to back them up. With some kind of figures/data/observations/reasoned arguement. Otherwise theyre never gonna get past the council for approval. Wink

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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 11:06    Post subject:  

Just for the record, I boot into Puppy more than Windows, but............

I have never had a Windows install get "broken" and never had to reinstall because Windows is "frequently broken".

I prefer Linux in general, and Puppy in particular, not because Windows is defective or unusable.......... I disagree with their restrictive EULA. I , however, don't claim to speak for all the "windows refugees" and/or newbs coming to Linux or Puppy.

Mainly though, Puppy is FUN.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 12:05    Post subject:  

Quote:
I have never had a Windows install get "broken" and never had to reinstall because Windows is "frequently broken"


Then you must know a lot about how to fix it....therefore its not "broken" to you.

No, I wont claim to speak for all "windows refugees"...no one can. I believe Ive met "more than most" though....and got them to use Puppy instead.

Back on topic, I suggest a sticky for section posting guidelines containing something of the like....

Quote:
When posting a feature/change request, please state your case why you believe the change/feature is needed, making reference to any observations or information you believe this would make puppy linux better fulfill its mission statement. If this change will effect other peoples use of Puppy Linux, then this must be doubly backed up


@James C: Yes, their EULA is only in their own best interests not ours. And if Linux fails, we will all have to live under it.[/url]

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drongo


Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 353
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 12:45    Post subject: There is no tongue in cheek icon  

ecomoney,

I don't want to start another flame war on this Forum. For what it is worth, I think your work is admirable.

However my use of terms like "nobody" or "anybody" was supposed to be ironic. The two non-engineers I showed Puppy to have no interest whatsoever in operating systems and would not know, or care, what to do with a Live CD.

My point was a simple one. My needs are not those of everybody. My circumstances are not the same as everybody else's. Puppy's users are probably too diverse for anyone to say anything meaningful about them except in the most general terms.

I don't suppose we can even say how many users there are. What is a user, someone who boots into Puppy every day - and no other operating system? Or someone who dual boots Puppy and something else? Or someone who only uses it as a rescue system?

Are the majority of users live-CD users, full installers, frugal installers or multi-session users?

Most forum polls are inconclusive. Hardly anyone responds and there is rarely an outright landslide winner.

I don't know how many people use Puppy. I don't know how they use it. I don't know which features they want to improve, expand or remove.

And that is my point. Anybody who claims otherwise is probably deluding themselves.

This has not stopped a whole bunch of people claiming that they do know "what is best". They can't possibly know. Wink
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 14:04    Post subject:  

Thank you for clarifying, irony doesnt come across well on a forum! I get where your coming from now, and I agree. No one person does know every way puppy is used, and everyone has their own idea of what it should do/does need, to be more useful to them. Im on your wavelength here.

Therefore whoever co-ordinates must be a good listener, with no particular bias for any type of puppy user Wink

I am also sorry if I come across as egotistical with my reports of what I have achieved with puppy (£30 cybercafe etc). When I reported back this and other sorts of things, I was intending for it to be a message about exactly how powerful the technology the people on here develop actually is.

Ok, my work is "admirable".....but simply not possible without you guys to create it. As I tell my clients, I am just the "delivery boy". How much do you think I admire you guys?

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canbyte


Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 266
Location: Hamilton, Canada

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 22:21    Post subject:  

PG, let me try again.

Recognize we are different animals. I am noob, knownothing wannafix. You are expert geek gottafix. Your time is more valuable but i keep hearing (hoping?) that us noobs are important to puppy's future. Soooo, . . . .

Where you see 349 impossible sections, I see about 100 items on the menu divided into just 13 sub menus. So why not 13 new sections under software. At least divide software into system and apps. Add a handful under hardware and its done.

But i see your point that the valuable guy should not have to hunt for bugs to fix. I notice there is a forum tool called 'unanswered questions'. Can't you make a similar tool for you to find bug reports? Then all you need to ask us to do is to place a tag word on the subtitle line - "bug". Problem solved.

But those general categories! As i tried to get across, i see no / little distinction between all those general section descriptors - & your idea of a "usability issues" section -- well i must have a mental block since some folks actually liked the idea. Again, consider that a newb with a problem probably considers it a bug, is annoyed at having a usability issue possibly related to software or hardware, wants a howto to deal with it, thinks a developer should remove the problem in the next puppy so it should be posted under suggestions!!!! A whole buncha ways to say the same darn thing - so tell me where the user is supposed to post his/her problem? If a beginner has the exact same problem as a regular are they really supposed to be posted in different places? Ok, why have ANY subsections in the first place, why not just one giant-free-for-all forum space. Yjeeesh. No wonder the forum is so inefficient.

Please, just one new section today. Any section. Just one.
Pretty please? !Smile

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gposil


Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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Location: Stanthorpe (The Granite Belt), QLD, Australia

PostPosted: Fri 08 May 2009, 05:06    Post subject: Just my AU$0.02 worth  

drongo said

Quote:
So I'd like to state with great authority that nobody ever installs Puppy, whether frugally or fully and nobody uses multi-session. In my experience everyone who uses it is an electronics engineer or software developer. And nobody is scared of a command line interface.


Whilst I agree with a lot of what drongo said, I have consciously made the decision that Puppy is my first OS..full hdd install with Windoze running in VMBox for my cross OS compilation work. This is obviously not the norm, but I am proving to myself that Puppy with a little work can be a distro of choice for users. I'm not going to say that anyone else should go my way , but just outlining another alternative(there are always different ways of going about things). Very Happy

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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
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Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Fri 08 May 2009, 05:25    Post subject:  

The most important section we need is something called Kennel or 5.xx

Smile

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drongo


Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 09 May 2009, 05:26    Post subject: Diversity  

gposil,

I would never dream of restricting how anyone uses Puppy (or any other linux distro). I think one of Puppy's strengths is the fact that it can be used in so many different ways.

What has been bugging me about the Forum for years is the number of posters who think that the way they use Puppy is the only "right way". Many of them think that they have an exclusive right to have developers fix their particular bug right now.

Unfortunately one of Puppy's weaknesses is also the fact that it can be used in so many different ways. People using live-CD (puppy pfix=ram), pupsave, frugal, proper install, USB etc are all going to experience different bugs and problems from time to time. They probably can't all be fixed on the same time-scale.

No one way of using the Puppy is "better" than any other but an intractable bug that only affects a few users may not get fixed very speedily.

But, obviously, live-CD is best so my problems must be more important than everybody else's.

Very Happy
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gposil


Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sat 09 May 2009, 05:35    Post subject:  

drongo

Quote:
I would never dream of restricting how anyone uses Puppy (or any other linux distro). I think one of Puppy's strengths is the fact that it can be used in so many different ways.
....
No one way of using the Puppy is "better" than any other but an intractable bug that only affects a few users may not get fixed very speedily.


Agree wholeheartedly, but we can only hope that with constructive input the most important people will be catered for (I think that's everyone... Very Happy )

.

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