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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Newbies - Puppy needs YOUR help too!
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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dogle

Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 353

PostPosted: Tue 19 May 2009, 16:58    Post_subject:  Newbies - Puppy needs YOUR help too!
Sub_title: Your feedback is important (but don't post technical queries here - use a new thread).
 

Newbies - Puppy is a brilliant distro for all sorts of people - but not yet for everyone (yet!). Some - hopefully just a few - don't get along with it. To make Puppy even better, we need to know WHY. If Puppy is not the answer to all your prayers, and especially if you are thinking of moving elsewhere, please pause and tell us what you didn't like, or what you would like to see get better, in this thread (but please discuss individual technical problems in another thread). Your views are very important - YOUR comments can help to make good things happen.

Regulars - Let's keep this thread just for newcomers, and let's offer them our thanks and discuss their contributions with them in a parallel one - http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=47021

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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 1058
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Tue 19 May 2009, 18:59    Post_subject:  

? Good idea, but....
Is it possible to make a thread/area whereby posts can be made without the need to sign up.
That way casual visitors may be more willing to comment???

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frefel

Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 178
Location: Eugene, Ore., US

PostPosted: Tue 19 May 2009, 21:16    Post_subject:  

Puppy is fantastic and I'm only starting to know it.

I would like to see a stable version of Firefox, preferable one of the more recent ones for security reasons, instead of Seamonkey. FF has more useful add-on options, including Xmarks, which I find invaluable. I realize I can add FF to Puppy but I have found it prone to crashing with certain video formats and with my YahooMail.
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popeye

Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 5
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Tue 19 May 2009, 22:33    Post_subject:  

Puppy is an impressive distro. Loading into Ram makes Puppy an exciting distro to use and unlike the larger mainstream distros does not try to be all things to all users. Excess packages are eliminated (packages that most will never use) while still providing the ability to install all of the basics and some extras as well. The upcoming Woof project is cutting edge and to my mind promises to be one of the most innovative projects I heard about in a long time. I feel like a kid in a candy store not knowing which way to turn my head (and thats exciting).

Its for theses reasons that I keep coming back to Puppy. I say keep coming back because I have tried Puppy a number of times in the past only to have left because of my lack of computer skills. Like many newbies my skills in getting things to work is reduce to copying code that is presented on forum pages. For what ever reason, when this code doesn't work I'm forced to return to a main stream distro (Linux of course) in order to get my work done.

Trying to get things to work is a great learning tool however a number of the pages in the " Index of resources for Beginners Help forum" were posted quite awhile ago and refer to much earlier versions of Puppy. While this information is still very valuable the solutions they present are not applicable to the later versions. It would be very helpful and save some newbie frustration if this was reorganized in some way to reflect this. To a newbie current documentation is a life saver.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Tue 19 May 2009, 22:45    Post_subject:  

Well tested firefox package Very Happy

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=40497

Its difficult to find though, Im hoping to have it included in the official repositories...but sometimes getting through to the developers can be hard work....feel free to join the campaign Wink

@Burn_IT.....first thats got to be the gutsiest signature Ive ever seen on a linux forum Shocked Laughing

Nontheless, someone with this background would be ideally suited to helping puppy achieve its mission..."Be friendly to linux newbies", and your contributions extremely worthwhile in the development sections.

We now have a section specifically for making suggestions for the next puppy version/and requesting bugs to be fixed Very Happy

Next Puppy Development

The current version of puppy linux being developed (at the time of writing this post) is Puppy 5 "woof" series

The start of ANY successful computer program, open or closed source, is to include the people that will use the program in its design and construction.

People without mainstream programming/tech skills can also help enormously by contributing to Puppy Linux's documentation (popeye). Anyone is free to add to our "wiki" (like a wikipedia just for puppy linux) which can be found here.

http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki

So, youve got an operating system that doesnt catch viruses, doesnt inexplicably slow down, that you can customize to your exact requirements, and keeps your computer usable for three times as long as a Microsoft one....and we give you it for free...

All we ask is you do something for free in return....that way we can all be free....

Do you agree BURN_IT? Wink

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popeye

Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 5
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Wed 20 May 2009, 00:42    Post_subject:  

Yes ecomoney I agree. Many hands do make light work and even if my computer skills are lacking doesn't mean that I can't contribute in other ways. It's easy to sit back and let others do all the work. To make something better, get involved and share the load.
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 1058
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Wed 20 May 2009, 05:53    Post_subject:  

Quote:
@Burn_IT.....first thats got to be the gutsiest signature Ive ever seen on a linux forum
It is a doublé entendre, not meant to be serious.

I am certainly willing to help and make suggestions, but I cannot commit myself to anything specific as I often get called away for weeks at a time.

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 05:06    Post_subject:  

Please do then! And put a "Wink" in your sig! I thought we were being invaded for a moment Shocked Very Happy All the best
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dogle

Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 353

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2009, 08:35    Post_subject:  

It would also be very interesting to hear from our more-experienced newcomers if they feel that any other distros - for instance, Ubuntu - have offered them any advantage over Puppy in terms of newbie-friendliness.
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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11150
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2009, 10:28    Post_subject:  

Burn_IT wrote:
... Is it possible to make a thread/area whereby posts can be made without the need to sign up.
That way casual visitors may be more willing to comment???

This forum was originally set up so unregistered people could post as guests. It had to be changed to members only because of spam and other such useless off-topic junk. Evil or Very Mad
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Pete22


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 241
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2009, 11:00    Post_subject:  Experienced Newbie?
Sub_title: Do I qualify
 

I have been trying puppy for about two weeks.
I am not a geek, but a willing computer user,
who is not afraid to push buttons.

I have tried several of the distros.

I don't know the Linux lingo, but can I help?

Pete22
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Pete22


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 241
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2009, 16:01    Post_subject:  You asked for it ;-)
Sub_title: So I will tell you
 

I was thrilled that Puppy was easy to load and start running from a CD. I was surprised at how friendly the start up was. From there it was just a few clicks and I was running the Internet. I was wowed by that.

But I soon realized that puppy was not completely installed yet. Installing to a USB was easy, but getting the files in their proper place was next to impossible for me to understand. I am sorry to say that the the paragraph in the first timer file about not needing to the understand Linux's file system because Puppy will help you know the place to save stuff is **not true** for the non geek. I am still struggling to save files. The save file and the browser files, and my wordprocessor files, all the rest of the files that I want to keep after I turned my computer off.

I am sure it is a deal breaker for many folks who can't figure out how to properly save the files they want to keep..

I was even more surprised when the Seamonkey update came out. Several kind souls offered suggestions to help me get it installed, but none of instructions worked.

This is another major deal breaker when updates are impossible for the average user to install.

Now for the hard stuff:
I feel like *some* Puppy geeks think that once the wallpaper hits the screen, their duty to the non geek is over.

You don't want any potential users to feel that way.

My wish for Puppy is:
Puppy would complete the installation of itself and the default programs; including the placement of the user files where they will be saved when the computer turns off.

I suggest that this new installation system include more than one level like the firewall installation does now.

1- Magic install – Program checks hardware and software and installs what is most likely to work.
2- Basic install - would be done with interactive software.
3- Custom install – command line only

Then when the installation is done, the software could delete itself so it doesn't take up valuable space. Wink

The same idea should be used with handling software updates. Since I don't understand these things well, perhaps it is only reasonable to ask that Puppy automate the updates for the default programs.

Yes, it would take time away from working on new tweaks to do this. But in the end it would widen your user base, which would bring in more users with knowledge and resources to help with puppy development.

Maybe what I suggest is impossible. But impossible only means someone hasn't thought of a way to do it, yet!

I can tell there are some great minds out there. Please take these ideas for a walk around the park, stop and visit some firehyrants and trees. Go visit some of puppy's friends. Bring it home and let it have a nap in your chair. See if you can make this idea come to life.

Taking care of these issues is one of the major hurdles that is holding Puppy Linux back. I would love Puppy to jump that hurdle.

Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe, it can achieve!

Pete22

P.S. I think about those star trecky commicator looking things we call cell phones of today vs the old type dial phone of its day..... Ooops! My age is showing.... You youngsters don't even know what a tribble is. Wink

Hey, about about naming this new installation program a Tribble. It would be perfect pet because: A tribble is a small, soft, and gentle animal, and produces a soothing purring sound. These traits are said to endear them to most...races which encounter them, ...... That matches what we want users to feel about puppy!.

With the notable exception of Klingons, who consider tribbles to be "mortal enemies" of the Klingon Empire. Great analogy with Bill Gates and company.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Sat 23 May 2009, 18:14    Post_subject:  

Already on it Pete!

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=308526#308526

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Pete22


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 241
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Sat 23 May 2009, 22:12    Post_subject:  Wow!!! Cool!!!!
Sub_title: I knew you folks could do this!
 

Thank you, Thank you.

I am doing virtual somersaults. [I'm too old for the real kind] Wink

You may not get many answers here, simply because beginners don't want to appear stupid.

I however, have already learned a powerful lesson. When you're at the bottom, the only place to go is......
UP!

Today I went looking to see what another Linux flavor thought was important for their beginners to know. If you actually go to this site, there are links to lots more information about the suggestions that they voted on.

Some of these Puppy has already! They need to be more accessable to a beginner. And there needs to be a way that they can be downloaded to a beginner's own computer.

Why a download you might ask?

Because sometimes when you are confused, trying to think clear enough to look online for an answer is not possible. And did you know, it is really hard to ask, write, or even Google an intelligent question when you don't even a basic knowledge of Linux's or even Puppy's vocabulary?

Please make available at all the places where official copies of puppy is downloaded, an "official beginner's file" that beginners can download, and refer to as they get started.

Why not make a Pet package with beginners info. The current Puppy start page says there is lots of help under the help button. To a geek maybe, but I was very disappointed at what was Not There.

I've looked at some of the Puppy wink files. I used wink before I retired, and really like the program. These files are very nice. However, they need updating and some need a few extra steps for the non geek.

I suggest that all people creating tutorials for "the official beginner's file" for puppy, use the Official generic puppy. That way, the examples will look actually like what the beginner's sees on his own screen.

I would ask the authors of the pups can do the same with their own versions. Only use the generic version of their own pup for their beginner's visual instructions.

Later on you can have a whole section on Puppy Bling. How to change the generic puppy, or use a pup, or even multiple pups.

Cheers.

Pete22
A true underdog

I copied it all because I don't know enough, to know how much if this will be useful.

===============================================
Taken from http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/8074/


Written by MK the 4 May 08 at 20:51. Category: Accessibility. Related project: Nothing/Others. Status: New

Rationale

"Even though things are simple, Windows users get lost. These are some points the tutorial could cover...

How to configure internet connection (Typing “sudo pppoeconf” in the terminal is easy but not intuitive, it should to be written somewhere)

Where are the Windows files

How to set up restricted drivers

How to configure screen resolution

How to install and uninstall programs (there are many ways to install programs in Linux: add/remove, synaptic, apt-get, and GDebi... it can be confusing in the beginning)

Setting tracker indexing on (once you install Ubuntu and search for your files it simply doesn't work and nothing tells you need to set the indexing on)

Automatic mount hard drives on startup (unless there is some technical reason for not doing so. If they can't be automatically mounted then there should be an item indicating the need to mount the drivers before accessing them)

Where to solve problems ( links to support sites in the Firefox favorites could help...)

These are some ideas for the tutorial... everyone can contribute with other ideas or reject some points.

Please don't vote down if you don't agree with one item or two of the list, they can be changed... The main idea is to have a tutorial to help beginners.

== From merges ==
It can be smart to make a simple "guide" that tells you the differences (no start-button, go to upper-left corner instead) or give an option to install avant window navigator if they were used to a mac.

It could be used aswell to easily turn on the eyecandy (compiz, emerald, screenlets) so they don't get a customized UI, If they want to of course

It could go even further and allow people to import an UI from a friend or a website so it downloads and installs all the eyecandy and configures it right away."


Duplicates
Idea #9636: Novice Users NEED equivalent of Windows Vista's Welcome Center (upon 1st login) (137 votes)
Idea #11486: Welcome screen after fresh install (133 votes)
Idea #7268: Interactive first-use tour (84 votes)
Idea #7811: Guide (video?) for new users after install (84 votes)
Idea #7694: fancy ubuntu presentation (81 votes)
Idea #10879: Ubuntu must have a welcome-setup (69 votes)
Idea #8625: Create some kind of helper program to teach the basics to fresh converts (59 votes)
Idea #7751: Simple introduction page to Linux upon successful installation (53 votes)
Idea #171: Help guide for new users (46 votes)
Idea #6384: new users instalation (45 votes)
Idea #7247: Show 'Getting started' Animation or Video tutorial for newcomers on 1st boot (41 votes)
Idea #10545: Take a tour of Ubuntu dialog box right after installation. (39 votes)
Idea #3922: (Video) Tutuorial Option At First Boot (30 votes)
Idea #4067: Interactive Graphic Walk-trough (29 votes)
Idea #7748: First-time-boot welcome screen (28 votes)
Idea #16087: Tutorial to newbie (25 votes)
Idea #7768: Welcome screen for newbies from Windows (13 votes)
Idea #12224: Create a bypassable Ubuntu Tour for new users (12 votes)
Idea #4713: Make first boot-up and live-cd window (11 votes)
Idea #16180: Make an initial tour on Ubuntu (10 votes)
Idea #16840: Add a "Getting Started" Window when the system is booted the first time (3 votes)
Idea #1590: Create Tooltips or Welcome to Ubuntu Tutorial (-12 votes)



Comments
Monicker wrote on the 5 May 08 at 01:08
Much of that is already covered at https://help.ubuntu.com/.
An offline copy of that could be put on the system as a tutorial.

kahrytan wrote on the 5 May 08 at 01:24
This would be good proposal to make to the Ubuntu Screencasts time.
Go bug Popey for this screencasts (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam)

MK wrote on the 5 May 08 at 02:52
I know there are is a lot of support online. But my point is that new users should have the most basic information out of the box. New users may not even have an internet connection configured yet, how could they reach support?
Even having internet in my Windows partition it took me a long time to find all this information. Windows users should have information for tasks that are not intuitive popping up in the screen.
After so much job in making Ubuntu easier a little tutorial would be great; besides that is an easy thing to do that can lower the uninstall rate for Ubuntu that is about 30 according to an internet font.
Imagine that could help half the clients that uninstall and they would keep Ubuntu... that is a 21% increment in the new users market with a tutorial that has almost no cost to invest!!!!!


tiagobrandes wrote on the 5 May 08 at 13:39
A simple introduction on the linux file system hierarchy would be nice too. People coming from windows always get confused with it (my sister kept asking where were the C: and D: drives, yours didn't??)

MK wrote on the 5 May 08 at 16:20
Good Idea, file system hierarchy is completely different from Windows. It sure deserve some attention in the tutorial!
But about my sister... well, she is not learning Ubuntu... I am! I just migrated from Windows 2 weeks ago and wanted to help Ubuntu telling what has troubled me the most so that it can be easier for other Windows users to learn.

flounder wrote on the 5 May 08 at 19:53
These ideas are different pieces trying to address the distribution level *Integration Usability* problem: (BTW read the proactive comments)

#8099: Build use cases: How do people use Ubuntu
#7761: Run "Media Adviser" on Ubuntu's first launch
#8074: Welcome tutorial for new Linux users

Unfortunately for this problem to be addressed Mark Shuttleworth would have to pay some people to specifically work on it. The hardware companies only care about drivers; the server companies only care about server application features and performance; and OSS developers only care about their personal pain points/applications.

MK wrote on the 6 May 08 at 00:44
I agree with you... nobody is paying attention to that... and yes it will cost money, like every project here costs! I don't think making a tutorial would be expensive project thought. Besides he doesn't need to hire more people, It just need some people rearrangement.
30 percent uninstall rate is too high, there should be some money invested there. More Ubuntu users means more companies supporting Ubuntu, that is good for all users.

MK wrote on the 6 May 08 at 01:06
I know it is not easy to change established work divisions, but it is not impossible. Every company that want to stay in the market should be able to see its weak points and have the flexibility to fix them. I believe Ubuntu can do that.
Let's vote up all these ideas.

flounder wrote on the 6 May 08 at 15:09
The Ubuntu development staff is _really_ lean, so they don't really have time for a big usability project (which most developers dislike) without additional dedicated staff. However, this particular idea (tutorials) can probably be done in a limited fashion via structured Wiki content. I was distracted by the big picture of usability in my previous comment, and it seemed as if this idea fits with the use case idea.

Use cases can be addressed by wizards, tutorials, organization, and even just naming things better.

Manos wrote on the 6 May 08 at 19:28

@Moderators
This idea should be in "Look and Feel".

MK wrote on the 6 May 08 at 23:11

to Manos

Yes, it should. Sorry about that, if there is any way to fix it let me know.

Manos wrote on the 6 May 08 at 23:40

@MK
It's fine, humans make mistakes.
You can't change this, only moderators can.

MK wrote on the 6 May 08 at 23:40

to flounder

That would be great. I like the idea of case studies in a Wiki.

The case study posted "girlfriend experiment" is nice as a starting study, but other the case studies in the Wiki should also be used to test out tutorials, wizards, etc... to see how effective they are. Then we can merge the best ideas and test then working together.

I have no idea how to make a Wiki. If anyone starts the project please post here to let me know.

knb wrote on the 13 May 08 at 12:17
How to work with .desktop files to create the icons YOU want easily.

Which file formats to use for the icons, how to add them to a menu ... more elaborate discussion of the subject is in the "customize desktop" section of the help.ubuntu.com files, but it is too much to read) Can provide a link to the help file.

How to work with locate command on command line to find files
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Pete22


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 241
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Sun 24 May 2009, 00:17    Post_subject:  What others have for newbies
Sub_title: Knoppix
 

The only thing wrong with this, it's out of date, wayyyyy out of date. It was written 5 years ago, it was a great idea, that they let slide. If they're like puppy with a new version every six weeks..... or even half as good, every 12 weeks or even 1 new version - a year ..... Letting the training material slide like that, is not acceptable.

If we want beginners to continue to keep coming and using Puppy, we have to be as committed to keeping the instuctions up to date as we are to actually adding new functions to Puppy in the first place.

At the bottom of the orginial page is a file in openoffice that someone could download and modify. There is some general linux stuff that we have permission to use, so we don't have to reinvent the will. I wish I could download that version but I can't. In Puppy, I can't figure out where stuff downloads, and even if I find it, when I try to unzip, the files never end up where I can find or use them even with the pfind tool. Question



===============================================
http://www.pjls16812.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/knowing-knoppix/index.html

Knowing Knoppix

The first guide to Knoppix for the complete beginner

Knoppix is an astoundingly clever product. It runs Linux completely from CD. There is no need to install. It bypasses all the software already installed on your PC or laptop. It automatically detects the hardware in your computer, such as video card, sound card, networking, the lot (subject to suitable hardware). When you've finished using Knoppix, simply restart. Your computer will return to your regular system, and it will behave as if nothing has happened. Knoppix is Free Software and open source under the terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL).

Knowing Knoppix is a beginner-friendly book designed to help with these situations:

-You can't start Windows! Disaster? Possibly not. It is often possible to rescue files from crashed Windows computers, even when Windows cannot be started. This guide takes you step by step through the process.
You are curious about Linux, and you want to discover what all the fuss is about.

- You want a useful guide to help you get started.

-This is not a "dummies" book. Instead, it is for smart people who want - or need - to run Knoppix for the very first time.

Reviews
Some of the comments we have received (slightly edited):

"Amazingly useful, well written and concise" -- Sam Posten, Adjunct Professor, Monmouth University, New Jersey, USA

"Easy and educational" -- Mark Repp, Technology Trainer, Port Huron Area School District, USA

"Rocks. For the beginner, well written... flows" -- Knoppix Forums

"Hats off... an excellent book" -- Knoppix Forums

"Top Pick... a great introduction" -- Tech Support Alert

What's new
8 June 05: Added what to do if a printer is not listed in the Add Printer Wizard, or if it fails to respond to a test page.

8 May 05: Important corrections regarding
1) USB drive compatibility and
2) USB 2.0 support.

Requirements
To run Knoppix in full and follow the instructions in Knowing Knoppix, you need:
Intel Pentium compatible PC (350 Mhz or faster is the practical minimum).
At least 128 Mb RAM.
Bootable CD-ROM drive, or any CD-ROM drive plus 1.44 Mb floppy drive.
SVGA compatible graphics card.
Serial, PS/2 or USB mouse.

Download
Just as Knoppix is free, so is Knowing Knoppix. It is released under the GNU Free Documentation Licence. You are welcome to copy and redistribute it (subject to certain conditions). You will probably want to download the PDF version. The source archive contains the original documents in OpenOffice.org version 1.1.1 (SXW) format.
Main content (3.8 Mb PDF)
Front cover (91 Kb PDF)
Back cover (271 Kb PDF)
Source (7.2 Mb tar/gzip archive)

Knowing Knoppix is designed for off-line reading, preferably printed. It is meant to be read as a companion to your PC or laptop, not as part of it. That is why it is offered in PDF format. Please note that the version of Knoppix covered is 3.3, which is a bit dated now. Version 3.3 was the current version when we started writing the book.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright: Phil Jones Computers, May 2005.
Email: philjones1 [at] blueyonder.co.uk. Replace [at] with @ to complete the email address.

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