Can Puppy damage a NTFS filesystem?

Message

cichlasoma · #1 Post by **cichlasoma** » Wed 23 Sep 2009, 23:10

Hi.
Recently, I found there are lots of files missing from the applications installed in my Windows XP (rendering the applications unusable, of course).
I've written to the disk in question quite a lot from Puppy in several last days, I've used it to convert SFS files from Puppy 4.2 to 4.3, I've created a remastered Puppy-CD using free space on this disk (but mostly, I used the other partition of the disk then the one where the files are missing now).
Well, Puppy offers a kind of solution to the problem for sure (I mean leaving Windows for some time at least), yet I'd like to ask whether it could be the cause of it at the same time, i.e. whether there are known cases where Puppy would damage a NTFS filesystem in such a drastic way when working with it.
c.

sunburnt · #2 Post by **sunburnt** » Thu 24 Sep 2009, 07:33

Hi cichlasoma; I doubt anyone knows really, but... It is a M$ creation.
M$ really went out of their way trying to make NTFS unusable to other OSs.
The Linux folks barely got Linux writing to NTFS reliably in the last few years.
NT, XP, and Vista ruin data on NTFS partitions all the time, so... Maybe...

In reality it should not happen, possibly the drive could be failing.
As always, the best idea is to make a ext3 partition on your HD to use.
Or if it`s too much trouble, use a USB drive, HD is best but flash works.

Sylvander · #3 Post by **Sylvander** » Thu 24 Sep 2009, 08:32

1. I've never seen any Puppy create problems with:
(a) FAT32
My Windows and [3 internal & 2 external] data partitions are all FAT32, and I do all kinds of stuff with them using various Puppies.
e.g. Make and restore backups of the contents of the Windows partition using Pudd, Xfe, FREE SyncBack->[under WINE].

(b) NTFS
I'm helping a neighbour to use Puppy [4.3.0-beta3] to do stuff with his system.
e.g. Used Xfe to COPY the contents of his Windows NTFS partition [to a folder on an NTFS partition on an external USB2 HDD].
Used GParted to non-destructively reduce the size of his Windows partition from 120GB to25Gb.
That corrupted some vital Windows files, so that Windows wouldn't boot; just as well I'd made an image backup [using Acronis True Image 11].
Restoring that fixed the problem.

2. The FREE SyncBack is GREAT for checking the Windows partition contents against the backup version to view the "differences" between them [lost/deleted files would show as a difference], and restoring those from the backup.

3. Have you tried using GParted to "check" [and fix any problems found in] the file system on the Windows partition?

4. Check the health of your HDD by installing and running Gsmartcontrol smart monitor

5.
(a) A GREAT way to defragment the folder/file contents of a partition...
Is to use Xfe to copy the contents...
Then delete the originals [make a Pudd image first to give added insurance]...
Then copy the contents back.
All the restored contents [with the exception of a small empty space at the beginning of the partition] will be in PERFECT ORDER, and TOTALLY CONTIGUOUS.

(b) You should use GParted to scan [and fix any errors found in] the file system prior to doing this.

disciple · #4 Post by **disciple** » Thu 24 Sep 2009, 09:16

whether there are known cases where Puppy would damage a NTFS filesystem in such a drastic way when working with it.

In theory there is a risk of problems like this, particularly since the linux ntfs driver is reverse engineered. It isn't expected to happen though - I've only seen one or two people complain of Puppy corrupting an ntfs, and I suspect they really had failing hard drives.

paulh177 · #5 Post by **paulh177** » Thu 24 Sep 2009, 10:52

I have seen problems, but nothing very drastic.

I have a couple NTFS data partitions on my XP box, on which I also have experimented with Puppys booted frugally using Lin'n'Win (booted from a FAT32 partition).

I haven't lost data, but using XP chkdisk and scandsk on the NTFS partitions after using Puppy to write to them, always threw up some allocation or crosslink errors; nothing that wasn't fixable by the same tools. the disk is fine by the way, not on its way out. I don;t see the same errors developing when I just use XP, which does tend to support the idea of some shortcoming in Linux' handling of NTFS

the last time i checked all this out was over a year ago mind you, so with older puppies (3.x and early 4.x I suppose) which might have contained older NTFS support. It's important to remember it's not Puppy per se that might be causing a problem, but the Linux modules and drivers that support NTFS that are included in Puppy.

yorkiesnorkie · #6 Post by **yorkiesnorkie** » Thu 24 Sep 2009, 11:27

I don't belive simply writing files to your NTFS partition would cause it any damage. Puppy knows what files are already there and shouldn't over-write them.

Recently my daughter's laptop, running vista on the default NTFS partition wouldn't boot at all which had nothing to do with Puppy at all. I was called to the rescue to save her files and I booted up my puppy live cd and checked the partition using Gparted (which is on the default puppy install) and it found that the NTFS partition had bad sectors which were not repairable with Gparted. As far as I can tell Vista went FUBAR all on its own.

Further reading on the net about failures to boot turned up some unrelated but interesting information which is pertinent to anyone working with resizing NTFS partitions. Apparently if you must resize the active partition M$ want you to do that from within Vista. You have to jump through hoops to do what you want even if you want to run XP and Vista. Furthermore I read that Vista prefers you to use its bootloader rather than Grub.

There's some tutorials around here somewhere on dual booting Linux with NTFS and you'll have to do a search of the forum for info. Your XP install isn't a lost cause just yet. Your NTFS partition does not have to be Fubar, its M$ OS taking a hissy fit that is your issue. There is a Vista repair iso out there for troubleshooting and fixing booting problems. You might be able to find one for XP or locate a better solution. I'll poke around here and see what I can find since this issue of dual booting with NTFS and failure of the windows partitions to boot also interests me.

In my daughter's case I rescued all her data using Puppy (Burned it to DVD), deleted the offending NTFS partition, and created a new NTFS partition for her to re-install to since she wanted to re-victimize herself with Redmond's Poison. When I ran the check in Gparted it came back with no errors.

Yorkiesnorkie.

yorkiesnorkie · #7 Post by **yorkiesnorkie** » Thu 24 Sep 2009, 12:16

Hi,

This might help you. I've been digging around and here's some info for you by authors that are far more experienced than I am:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=29356

http://www.gposil.com/pupinst.htm

All hard drives that have Windows installed contain a standard block of code in their MBR. If this code gets altered,
Windows may refuse to boot even though its actual files are OK. This can be a frightening situation, but is easy to
repair. Do some research on the WinXP Recovery Console and its "fixmbr" command.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 23&t=16950 Also look here for the "fixmbr"
download. Vista users should read http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/windows-v ... -download/ here.

This is a crucial issue because Puppy uses its own bootloader, GRUB. You have to pick one or the other as the
primary bootloader for your computer.

Now for the decision. Do you want to continue using Windows as the primary bootloader? If so, you will need to
modify Windows so it presents a startup menu that includes Puppy as one of the options. The Puppy Universal
Installer (PUI) cannot set this up because you need to make the changes from inside Windows. There is an on-line
tutorial called the Lin'N'Win Project that will do the job.
Find it here http://www.icpug.org.uk/national/linnwi ... innwin.htm

Or do you want Puppy to be the primary bootloader? This will involve installing GRUB, which Puppy can do
automatically. Windows will now run as an option from the GRUB boot menu. However, because GRUB is a Linux
product, this will only work if you have installed Puppy into its own partition. And the partition must be formatted
using a Linux-compatible filesystem such as ext2.

The PUI will refuse to install GRUB in a FAT or NTFS partition, because it assumes that the partition contains
Windows. Watch for the cryptic error message "This partition is not Linux".

cichlasoma · #8 Post by **cichlasoma** » Thu 24 Sep 2009, 16:30

Thank you a lot for all the comments!
I have to make clear, my Windows system boots allright - there are simply missing files from various installed applications. I've checked the disk with (excellent!) Gsmartcontrol smart monitor and it's OK. I suspect the problem could be caused by a virus, but there are circumstances speaking against it as well and overall, the thing seems to be quite mysterious to me...
c.

mikeb · #9 Post by **mikeb** » Thu 24 Sep 2009, 17:00

Used GParted to non-destructively reduce the size of his Windows partition from 120GB to25Gb.
That corrupted some vital Windows files, so that Windows wouldn't boot; just as well I'd made an image backup [using Acronis True Image 11].
Restoring that fixed the problem. Very Happy

this suggests that ntfs was corrupted in puppy or am I reading this wrong?

Hmmm...not sure about corruption but a few days ago I was copying an xp install to ntfs partition using rox and half way through it refused to write. HAd to reboot and do it properly in windows. No corruption but obviously half the files were missing...an upset file index it seems. Now not sure if it not so much the ntfs driver as rox since rox hard froze puppy copying from one flash stick to another (no ntfs) so my feeling is there may be gui bugs causing problems (I wiped a partiton over a network with a coding error

) Using the command line 'cp' tend to produce better results for large file transfer operations.

Another point is ntfs-3g is as far as I know a user space driver..now curlftpfs another user space drive has quirky behaviour..not sure if there is any relevance there.

Generally I don't get a cosy feeling with ntfs even on windows. Good old fat on a decent modern drive (an important point I believe...hard drives were not always that robust and ntfs would cope with that better) actually behaves rather well even though technically it is apparently greatly inferior.

I generally have my windows partition unmounted when using linux and only pop in there if absolutely necessary...and never run wine with it mounted.

just my experience

mike

disciple · #10 Post by **disciple** » Thu 24 Sep 2009, 22:00

this suggests that ntfs was corrupted in puppy

Yes, I was also baffled that they also said they had no problems!

All hard drives that have Windows installed contain a standard block of code in their MBR.

Not relevant, but I think that is rubbish, because you can install WinGrub to your MBR and still boot windows.

Sylvander · #11 Post by **Sylvander** » Fri 25 Sep 2009, 05:56

1. "this suggests that ntfs was corrupted in puppy or am I reading this wrong?"
(a) After the non-destructive reduction in size of the Windows NTFS partition...
When I rebooted to Windows, the boot halted with a < and a flashings cursor beneath.
I guessed it was due to corrupted files, but it might have been a corrupted filesystem.
The restore of the Acronis image got Windows booting, but took the partition size back to a largely empty 111GiB [or so].

(b) I then tried to use a universal boot floppy that substitutes for the Windows "system" partition.
I've never seen that fail to boot to Windows, but it failed in this case, and it's still failing in the new situation as explained in 2 below.

2. " I was copying an xp install to ntfs partition using rox and half way through it refused to write...half the files were missing"
Continuing the process from 1 above:
(a) I moved about 10GiB of data files off his NTFS Windows [C:] partition...
To a folder on a 250GiB NTFS partition [that I used GParted to make] on a 1000GB external USB2 HDD.

(b) Now used Puppy-4.3-beta3->Xfe to copy the remaining 7.8GiB of [Windows+program+odds] folder/file contents of sda1 [C:] to a folder on the external USB HDD, and used Xfe to delete the originals on sda1.
Failure to delete [about 3GiB of] certain files in the Windows folder.
Intention was to non-destructively reduce [an EMPTY] sda1 to 12GiB.

(c) Used GParted to non-destructively reduce [the NON-EMPTY] 111GiB sda1 to 12GiB.

(d) Tried to copy back the [copy of the former] contents of sda1, but the items inside the Windows folder wouldn't copy over.

(e) Tried copying the backup Windows folder contents to the Windows folder on sda1, but that failed.

(f) Thinking of trying:
Muppy 008.4c
OR...
UBCD4Win
Or...
Windows XP bootable installation CD->non-destructive repair.

cichlasoma · #12 Post by **cichlasoma** » Sun 27 Sep 2009, 17:34

Hi.
recently, I've discovered that even enlarging a NTFS partition with Windows XP using GParted (without moving it) makes Windows unbootable. (Not to speek about moving or shrinking the partition...)
(Unfortunately, I've verified it repeatedly.)
c.

mikeb · #13 Post by **mikeb** » Sun 27 Sep 2009, 17:44

Hi.
recently, I've discovered that even enlarging a NTFS partition with Windows XP using GParted (without moving it) makes Windows unbootable. (Not to speek about moving or shrinking the partition...)
(Unfortunately, I've verified it repeatedly.)

Hmm..and so often new users are told to shrink their windows partition to install puppy even though this does not need doing.......

Even if you create a fresh ntfs partition with gparted it needs checking with windows before using.

mike

cichlasoma · #14 Post by **cichlasoma** » Sun 27 Sep 2009, 22:43

mikeb wrote: Hmm..and so often new users are told to shrink their windows partition to install puppy even though this does not need doing.......
mike

Anyway, it's a safe thing to do with Partition Magic e.g.. Are there reasonably good results with a freeware software?

Bruce B · #15 Post by **Bruce B** » Mon 28 Sep 2009, 01:16

I lost the functionality of an NTFS by shrinking with gparted.

Loss may be the wrong word.

How about? I gained a lot of usable space by trying to shrink an NTFS.

raffy · #16 Post by **raffy** » Mon 28 Sep 2009, 04:46

I've written a lot to NTFS (Xp and Vista) using Puppy Linux from version 2.13 to 4.20 and never got any of the errors reported here.

I make it a point to chkdsk Windows after much writing by Puppy Linux.

Sylvander · #17 Post by **Sylvander** » Mon 28 Sep 2009, 06:18

"I then tried to use a universal boot floppy that substitutes for the Windows "system" partition.
I've never seen that fail to boot to Windows, but it failed in this case, and it's still failing in the new situation as explained in 2 below."
Fixed that and Windows now boots using the boot floppy.
My boot floppy was set up for use on my own Wn2000Pro.
The Windows folder is named WINNT on my own system, and the Windows folder in the boot flopy boot.ini file was named WINNT to suit.
Made a copy of the floppy and changed the boot.ini WINNT values to WINDOWS, and it then succeeded in booting my neighbours system.

See:
Disk read error occurred. Press CTRL+ALT+DEL to restart.

ecomoney · #18 Post by **ecomoney** » Mon 28 Sep 2009, 07:12

Ive installed Puppy Linux alongside Windows on a (semi) commercial basis over the past four years on a number of computers that must have at least three figures. Ive never known it damage a filesystem in all this time. XP is far more capable of breaking itself than Puppy Linux is of breaking it...thats been my experience.

Many times Ive been called however when XP has happened to break itself and asked if Puppy has done it. Google has revealed its always been a simple XP error thats caused this.

mikeb · #19 Post by **mikeb** » Mon 28 Sep 2009, 10:36

Ive installed Puppy Linux alongside Windows on a (semi) commercial basis over the past four years on a number of computers that must have at least three figures. Ive never known it damage a filesystem in all this time. XP is far more capable of breaking itself than Puppy Linux is of breaking it...thats been my experience.

did that involve resizing ntfs?....the issue seems to be writing a large number of files to ntfs specifically which happens during a resize.
I see ntfs access from linux as a convenience but not something to be used on a regular basis. I avoid ntfs on windows too though I find windows very reliable when it comes to file handling but that would be on fat16/32. Indeed I use ext2/3 drivers from windows for common storage and that has behaved so far.

There is a difference with how linux handles file moving/deletion compared to windows...one indication of this is that a file can be deleted but still be used. I wonder if this could be a factor?

mike

diaeresis · #20 Post by **diaeresis** » Mon 28 Sep 2009, 19:37

I have found that just opening some files in puppy (powerpoint and pdf's) makes them unreadable when I try opening them under windows xp. Annoying. Luckily I discovered this on files that weren't so important. Message to self:- copy anything important before opening it with puppy.

I also tried using gparted to resize my ntfs partition but gave up when it got all itsy on me. There are a couple of good freeware partition managers around for windows, easus is one and paragon have a free version of their partition manager if you dig deep on their uk site. Much nicer than gparted and very very simple to use.

I have no idea what would happen if you tried using one under wine but might try it just for fun (after backing up anything important!)

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Can Puppy damage a NTFS filesystem?

Can Puppy damage a NTFS filesystem?

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written to NTFS