Simple Installation Kit to put Puppy on Hard Drive

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raffy
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Simple Installation Kit to put Puppy on Hard Drive

#1 Post by raffy »

Some discussion about the use of swap has come up with these latest, interesting views. The latest post even says
if these folks that develop the mini-live CDs, puppy and others, especially slax, would also develop a pure install like so many people are wanting, then that would contribute significantly to reduce waste and save some energy from making new machines uneccessarly.
I wonder what "pure install is", perhaps one that takes over the entire hard disk, makes the partitions, and makes a new installation?

Note: I may be able to make one by adding to the already existing scripts, but learning how to will take me some time, so it may be useful to open the discussion...

More notes: Personally, I have experienced this with version 1.06: Using a 64-MB RAM PC, I created the swap partition but forgot to format it. When I rebooted with the live CD, it was trying to use the swap and failing to, causes the CD-boot to fail, so I had to use another Linux distro to format the swap file.

Takilla
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#2 Post by Takilla »

Actually, Raffy, I am impressed with Puppy's install program as it is. My own inexperience is my main obsticle. The pup001 file issue could be removed for the HD install as it is confusing to many. I do not use live
CDs so I still do no know what the file is for. Including in the hd install program an ability to partition, format and mount swap would be helpful. this also applies to /boot,/home, /var, /temp,etc. A more aggresive install Puppy (Maddog Installer?)would be helpful. I am currently struggling with creating /home, /temp, /var,etc.manually-just cannot find good instruction thru google.

Many Slax users have ask to have the install scrpts corrected/improved but with no luck, apparenty. the reason being that "slax is a live CD-go build a slackware system on your own". It's just not the same thing. Many want Slax, not slackware, on HD.I think that the mini-live CD people have created something better than they intended.

The utilities for partitioning-formating need not be installed to HD but can be run live-correct? I have not yet seen this on any distros. You could even put pre-exsisting HD tools on the CD but just not have them installed to maintain Puppys smallness. No need to wipe out the entire drive to install. Many will want to keep their existing OS for a while (personally I like wiping out drives).

And could you put Puppy Live on a re-writable CD with the permanant files password protected and use the rest of the rw CD as your "persistant home"?

And could you get rid of the U.S. national debt and get to work on world peace while your at it?j(':lol:')(':wink:')

Guest

#3 Post by Guest »

Writing a GUI program to repartition and format a hard drive is a simple but dangerous process as you have to put enough checks in to ensure that people do not just go ahead and keep pressing yes so that they end up erasing data that they wish to keep.

Takilla
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#4 Post by Takilla »

I may be naive, but why not use the existing code from Fedora's Anaconda, for example. It's one of the best.

Sage
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#5 Post by Sage »

The point is that Barry's masterpiece has priceless, if unintended, spin-off. His implementation of ramdisk, efficiently coded apps, yielding unprecedented speed, can be transferred onto old hardware. With a swapfile all the good aspects are retained without needing memory bloat. This also meets with his original stated strategies. We haven't heard from the guru, in person, yet.

There are plenty of distros offering auto installation (most do). Ubuntu uses two different CDs - live and installation - probably overkill. Mepis is the sort of thing Taki has in mind? If recycling old HW is the intention, then discussion about whether or not to preserve old OSes is inappropriate. The requirement is to wipe everything in order to install a superior system. Nice to know that Guest feels this is easy! The only downside to the present Puppy distro is its quirky installer - this is entirely understandable on the basis that it was designed to be a live-CD! But I still think we should ask BK to seriously and urgently consider a rewrite incorporating a radically redesigned installer which also takes care of the swapfile issue. I see no merit in dispersal of effort into yet more clones. Linux already needs a lot more cooperation and cohesion if it is to displace the evil behemoths......

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Ian
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#6 Post by Ian »

The best thing about Linux is that we can write programs to suit what we wish to do and keeping things small & simple has always been one of the main goals of Puppy.

When writing custom programs for Puppy we can keep the bloat down by using the existing utilities& libraries and not having to add unnecessary ones.

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#7 Post by Sage »

Yes, indeed, Ian. However, that presumes you have the expertise. Most folk are users, not IT professionals. What worries me is dispersal of effort. Gurus can look after themselves - this was always so. They can generate modified versions for almost any circumstance. In that sense, they are their own worst enemies. Wood for trees introspection! Seeing the big picture, the global (in both senses) possibilities are what raises Linux from yet another geeky ivory tower plaything into a tour de force that liberates the proletariat. If I read BK's writings correctly, apart from his obvious skills, it was his vision that raised his creation above the heap.

Takilla
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#8 Post by Takilla »

There seems to be two goals here:

1. the original live cd project-the 1st generation culminating in the re-writable multi-session cd.

2. The install OS, small and friendly, up-to-date, able to revive old hardware using espcially small harddrives with little RAM and old CPUs.

The install OS, as a priority, is an unintedned outgrowth of the original project. We users have made it a priority-therefore the install scripts-ability to prepare a hard drive in all aspects-are understandably lacking, but still usable.

Really, if you think about it, if you are reiving old hard ware, as Sage has pointed out, there is no reason to preserve the old OS nor is ther room on the HD for both.
Thus my idea for "MadDog Installer", go in, take over, write zeros, partition, formate, assign directories, boot, home var,temp, etc. setup multi user(in addition to root), and whatever booter you want!. And make it easy for all who have an interest in linux. Something like this can be a major move against that beast that practices what I call "commercial hostility against the people".

So what do I know? I still have not yet set up my first Puppy to my satisfaction.

so lets keep on secreemin n' yellin bout' the installer. Wish I could contribute myself.

Sage
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#9 Post by Sage »

So where do we go from from here?!
We need to inspire those who can to become those who've done....

raffy
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A start

#10 Post by raffy »

In fact, you can get started by writing a simple guide for partitioning a hard disk using DOS and fdisk. There will be two partitions only:

The usual C partition = /dev/hda1
The extended partition (will have one swap partition) = /dev/hda5

Using a DOS boot floppy, partition the hard disk then load Puppy from CD and use "cfdisk" in console to convert the extended/virtual partition to swap. (I guess you could CTRL-ALT-BKSP during bootup to skip the loading of desktop? Some cheat code at boot-time can help here.)

Format the swap partition (mkswap /dev/hda5) then install Puppy to hard disk (there are many alternatives here, the main being the installation to ext2 filesystem, but you can also install in DOS and load Puppy just like a live CD).

(People with a copy of Partition Magic can do this from Windows by attaching the old hard disk to their machine and doing the partitions, after which the old hard disk may be returned to its home machine and installed with Puppy.)

Related reading - some old tutorial of mine is still there working, at

http://ph-islands.net/pupinstall

Of course, the impatient or the more skilled may use scripts like the Anaconda installer of red Hat...

Sage
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#11 Post by Sage »

As for rejuvenation of old kit, any comments on the latest Dynebolic distro, announced on DistroWatch this morning (5-12-05).

muskrat
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#12 Post by muskrat »

My problem with this;
I may be naive, but why not use the existing code from Fedora's Anaconda, for example. It's one of the best.
In my experince Anaconda doesn't like older slow hardware. At least the latest Gui versions don't. Whats wrong with just teaching the newbies to use the Live CDs for what they were intended for. Servicing systems.

Teach them to use the tools there to prepare the HD for the instalation of your choicing. I know newbies have a problem grasping some of linux terms and methods, because they come from a OS that dumbs down everything.

I am an example, when I was a newbie I had a problem with all that. But believe you me. I don't regret having learned! Now I hate windoze, I like knowing what my system is doing and having FULL control over every aspect of it.

I have used several HDs which windoze budies have trashed saying they were no good. Yet when I run linux disk utilities and partioned them rewriting the MBR with grub, they work fine.
Steve (Muskrat) McMullen
http://www.muskratsweb.com
Registered Linux User #305785

Sage
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#13 Post by Sage »

Be realistic!
Most users are never going to be able to manipulate Linux files and distros - they just want to use it. I've known many folks who ask for a service call because they don't understand that there's an ON/OFF switch on the PSU as well as on the wall; a PhD in an unrelated field who didn't know that the modem lead was non-reversible and could only be plugged in one way, but would give any IT professional a hard time in a discussion of isoprenoid condensations.
These fora are for folks who have much more than the average interest in computers. In my case, I have a fifty-year interest in HW, but am eternally grateful to Barry and other long-suffering contributors who help me with my stupid SW questions. I hate SW!! My first comment when someone brings me a bent PC for servicing is "I don't do software".
Barry is solid gold because he is one of the very few guys who understand what is required to bring enlightenment (Enlightenment?!) to the masses.

PS. I have also been a beneficiary of HW from folks with 'broken 'doze PC's'. Sadly, their kit has usually been passed to me (frequently gratis) after they've already bought more shiny new proprietary rubbish. Most regular folks see a bent PC in the same terms as a broken washing machine. Brainwashed from birth by the greedy capitalists who care nothing for the planet, its inhabitants or acquisition of knowledge.

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#14 Post by Lobster »

Interesting thread :)

I just used used Anaconda to install Fedora 1 on a fat32 hard disk from a DVD. :) It is very nice but probably too big for Puppy. I have the new Ubuntu and the disk would not read but after viewing the live CD I am not certain I wanted it. The thing is I was trying to install Windows, well it has been about six months since I used it . . .:oops:

The machine I am using does not support XP (not every PC does - though fully capable in hardware specs)

Now I use Puppy from CD because it is the simplest option. I have done 1 and 2 HD installs and even managed in a flash of uncharacteristic genius to install Puppy in 15 minutes using the version 2 HD - I think I was on special vitamin injections at the time or maybe I had just eaten a really smart fish . . .

When I first was using Knoppix I eventually wanted to install it on a HD - this was not easy - in fact it was obscure, and then changed and now I am not sure if I would bother . . .

Again (as always) it is a question of scripting. For now I do not install to HD. If someone wishes to create a script that wipes my HD, formats and puts a self booting Puppy - all well and good but the existing offerings are not as easy as they might be . . . and some people really need them - so they do the usual thing with Linux - fiddle about with what already has been fiddled with.

1. Simple means it can be used by simpletons (like me):oops:
2. Fast means it is fast to set up (on Hard disk too)
3. Reliable means you can rely on the first two options to be working.

Puppy needs a bit of grooming. 8) I am pleased to say we have many more dog walkers. :)
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

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Marcel
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#15 Post by Marcel »

Well, I managed to install 1.0.5 to my HD. But it wasn't simple. And there was stuff left over from earlier attempts, and from Mepis.

It would be great to have a Puppy that installed easily (to revive a "dead" machine, as my old Compaq was), wiping the whole darn HD, setting up the partitions, incl.swap, and then installing everything- all in one fell swoop (whatever a "fell swoop" is).
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." - Voltaire

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#16 Post by Sage »

If you read Barry's daily news updates, you will be heartened to learn that this is exactly what he plans for v 2.0 .

bberris

Re: Simple Installation Kit to put Puppy on Hard Drive

#17 Post by bberris »

You can use parted (comes in floppy boot/root and bootable cd) to format partitions too.

http://www.gnu.org/software/parted/parted.html
raffy wrote:Some discussion about the use of swap has come up with these latest, interesting views. The latest post even says
if these folks that develop the mini-live CDs, puppy and others, especially slax, would also develop a pure install like so many people are wanting, then that would contribute significantly to reduce waste and save some energy from making new machines uneccessarly.
I wonder what "pure install is", perhaps one that takes over the entire hard disk, makes the partitions, and makes a new installation?

Note: I may be able to make one by adding to the already existing scripts, but learning how to will take me some time, so it may be useful to open the discussion...

More notes: Personally, I have experienced this with version 1.06: Using a 64-MB RAM PC, I created the swap partition but forgot to format it. When I rebooted with the live CD, it was trying to use the swap and failing to, causes the CD-boot to fail, so I had to use another Linux distro to format the swap file.

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