creation myths [fao fleetwood]

[DMcCunney]

People tend to think of the "nothingness" that the universe expanded
into as a void, or empty space. There was no space, no time. Those
are products of the expansion and are created as the expansion
continues.

And a by product of this assumption is that "What happened before the Big Bang?" is a meaningless question. Because time as well as space began with that primal inflation, there was no "before".

There are some interesting speculations currently that there was in fact a before, and we may be able to discover some things about it.

One is that we live in a multi dimensional hypercosmos, and our universe is one of a possibly infinite number of bubbles that are constantly being created and destroyed. We accept the concept of black holes, where enormous amounts of matter can be absorbed and compressed to pinhole size, creating a gravity well so fierce even light can't escape. A related concept is the white hole, with matter and energy mysteriously appearing seemingly out of nowhere. A possibility is that the Big Bang that generated our universe is a white hole, and the source was a super massive black hole in another cosmos.
______
Dennis

[Colonel Panic]

Fascinating stuff.

Here's the late Carl Sagan on Hindu cosmology, and how it ties in with what astronomers have already discovered;

"The main reason that we oriented this episode of Cosmos towards India is because of that wonderful aspect of Hindu cosmology which first of all gives a time-scale for the Earth and the universe -- a time-scale which is consonant with that of modern scientific cosmology. We know that the Earth is about 4.6 billion years old, and the cosmos, or at least its present incarnation, is something like 10 or 20 billion years old. The Hindu tradition has a day and night of Brahma in this range, somewhere in the region of 8.4 billion years."

"As far as I know. It is the only ancient religious tradition on the Earth which talks about the right time-scale. We want to get across the concept of the right time-scale, and to show that it is not unnatural. In the West, people have the sense that what is natural is for the universe to be a few thousand years old, and that billions is indwelling, and no one can understand it. The Hindu concept is very clear. Here is a great world culture which has always talked about billions of years."

"Finally, the many billion year time-scale of Hindu cosmology is not the entire history of the universe, but just the day and night of Brahma, and there is the idea of an infinite cycle of births and deaths and an infinite number of universes, each with its own gods."

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Hindu-cosmology

[klhrevolutionist]

Why would you consider someone a christian if they did not in factr follow Christ ? For that matter why would you call a communist a communist if they were in fact a capitalist ? Open your eyes a little bit more please.

[bugman]

Why would you consider someone a christian if they did not in factr follow Christ ? For that matter why would you call a communist a communist if they were in fact a capitalist ? Open your eyes a little bit more please.

it's been a long time since i've read one of your posts, and i've misplaced my decoder ring

hmm . . . let me take a stab at it . . .

it does not matter if i or anyone else considers someone a christian or a communist, what matters is what the person in question considers themselves to be

and if a person decides that the teachings of jesus include x and y, who am i to argue?

especially since the teachings of jesus seem to self-contradict themselves with a miraculous regularity

and communism has come mean "whatever i don't agree with", so that term has lost all meaning . . .

who is the christian who you are calling into question, and who is the communist? i admit to unending confusion!

[puppyluvr]

Hello,
@ Bugman, I think that was directed at my comment earlier...
I referred to the man as a Christian because HE referreed to himself as such..

And "Following Christ" is at best, an undefined term.. Even Christianity doesnt "follow" Christ...Its been following Saul of Tarsis for 19 centuries, a man who never even knew the Messiah.
Dont get me started....

BTW, the title is an oxymoron.. Creation cannot be a myth...
Was not, and then, was...

Before the comments fly,...
I am a Christian...
But I was only born once..
I just live my life towards HIS ideals...
I am also a Buddhist....
I live my life towards HIS ideals too...
I see no conflict....
.

[bugman]

been following Saul of Tarsis for 19 centuries . . . Creation cannot be a myth . . . I am a Christian . . . I am also a Buddhist

yeah, the first time i read the post-crucifixion part of the new testament i was shocked, all the creepy stuff is in there

creation cannot be a myth, but myths can be made of anything

i don't see a conflict between christianity [as narrowly defined] and buddhism

you might have to ignore the 'born again' hypothesis that acknowledgement gets you into heaven, which i've always thought was crap theology and led to lax morals

not that there's anything wrong with lax morals, but oh, the hypocrisy

plus, i'm not big on heaven . . .



i should be ignored re religion anyways, a rastafarian who thinks haile selassie was a tyrant and marcus garvey a con man

[all other religions and apostisms welcome]

[bugman]

interesting, a comparison of flood stories

gilgamesh has so much more depth of detail, so much more feeling

noah gets out of the ark, offers a sacrifice [more killing?]

utnapishtim weeps, is confused and angry

these are the emotions of a real person

a comparison of the gods involved shows similar differences

yahweh finds the smell of sacrifice sweet

ishtar howls and is angry at ea [the god who caused the flood]

i have found this weird heartlessness throughout the old testament

most recently, elisha gets called 'baldy' by some small boys, and a bear comes out of the woods and kills them

what kind of moral lesson is that?

[note that i am quite bald]

[rjbrewer]

For the origins of the Israelites and their god, this is the most
plausible story.

A New Model for Israel's Origins

"In this book I offer a radical new solution to the puzzle of Israel's origins, one that places its earliest roots in fourteenth century Egypt during the reign of the monotheistic Pharaoh Akhenaten. I call this the "Atenist" theory, after the unique deity that he worshipped. It holds that the refugees departing Egypt during what later became known as the Exodus were native Egyptians, devoted followers of the pharaoh Akhenaten.

This king's monotheistic religious reforms triggered massive resentment throughout the country. Less than two decades after Akhenaten’s death Pharaoh Horemheb launched an aggressive counter-revolution aimed at suppressing all memory of the hated predecessor. Akhenaten's loyal followers suffered greatly. They were removed from office, stripped of honor and property, and in many instances banished from the country. These persecuted Egyptians united together, rose in rebellion and formed the House of Israel."

http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Docu ... sesone.htm

http://kemet.250x.com/psalm104.html

[bugman]

interesting, i'll pass that along to the missus, who is much interested in the atenists

and in the moche, and the manson family, and . . .

[Pizzasgood]

I think the First Creation Myth is Evolution... which thinks an explosion created order

Which suspends the law of entropy in areas where evolution is working

Entropy only necessarily increases over an isolated system. Open systems can have plenty of decrease. Otherwise, I would not have been able to make my bed in the morning for all these years. (Sorry Mom, it's against the laws of physics!) I do not pretend to know enough about physics at the level of the big bang to even ponder how entropy was bypassed, beyond supposing that maybe the universe is not an isolated system, or maybe the laws of physics were different back then (in fact, that is probably the case - we have only observed them for a small amount of time. They could change slowly over time based on the deeper structure of the universe (or very quickly during events like the Big Bang). But I'm waaaaay outside my depth....).

But like I said, I can manually decrease the entropy in local areas. Am I decreasing the universe's entropy? No, I am not. To make my bed or build something with legos or write a program, I have to expend energy. This energy came to the planet as rays of light. It was converted into chemical bonds. Then those bonds were broken to release heat. The overall entropy change is positive.

Also, try supersaturating a jar of water with sugar by boiling the water and keep stirring in sugar until it will hold no more. Next, tie a string to a pencil and put some kind of weight on the end. Place the pencil across the lid of the jar so the string hands in the water. Then let it sit and cool and evaporate for a week or so. You will eventually see crystals forming, which are more organized than the dissolved sugar was, hopefully demonstrating that entropy is not as simple as you make it out to be. And also, you can eat them - you just made rock candy.

Which ignores how large the Sun would have to be if continued burning for 4 billion years

Elaborate please.



I have omitted my feelings regarding the erroneous of Christianity. I would rather go to sleep than proofread to make sure I did not make any critical flaws. And anyway, it would just cause a bunch of useless argument. (I do believe in a god, but the one I believe in is actually a loving and forgiving one, unlike the Christian god. I also believe that what really matter are actions and intention, not belief, worship, ritual, etc. God doesn't give a flip what religion you are, as long as you are good. He realizes you are not perfect and forgives you himself (without needing to sacrifice his own son) - in fact he praises you, because imperfect people are superior to perfect ones.)


edited to correct en error: entropy must increase in an isolated system, not a closed system. Closed systems have no mass transfer, but they still have heat transfer. Isolated systems have neither - they are completely isolated.

[bugman]

For the origins of the Israelites and their god, this is the most plausible story.

mrs bugman thinks not

when the "son of the sun" died, he left no successor, the whole thing was elitist to the core

she thinks there was probably little to no group cohesion, and that they all went back to the "old ways", the state religion centered on amun

the old testament is chock full of israelites and judeans reverting to baal and calf worship--even with a living priesthood--why not the egyptians?

[she thinks the exodus stuff was made up of whole cloth]

[rjbrewer]

the old testament is chock full of israelites and judeans reverting to baal and calf worship--even with a living priesthood--why not the egyptians?

[she thinks the exodus stuff was made up of whole cloth]

A bit illogical to accept one part (baal worship stories) and totally
reject some form of the other (exodus).
I'm skeptical of both.

[bugman]

good point, except a lot of the baal stuff is from the part where they have some idea of dates, plus there's a bunch of archaeological evidence, some think the jews did not fully become fully monotheistic until the 7th century bce

for the exodus, there's damn near nothing

[where's fleetwood, he's missing all the FUN]

[trapster]

I'm still trying to figure out where Adam and Eve's grandchildren came from.

[bugman]

I'm still trying to figure out where Adam and Eve's grandchildren came from.

read your bible

all of it will make even less sense

fascinating book, reading it not only sheds light on the thinking of the distant past, but also the recent -- the amount of brainwashing you will discover, even if you have never been particularly religious, is astonishing

[am i clear yet?]

[trapster]

bugman wrote:

read your bible

I have, always got lost in the "begot" section.

[bugman]

for me, the parts i skip over, begat-lists and building codes

what's my favorite part? the psychology of yahweh

extreme low self-esteem, astonishing in a deity

his incessant need for attention is what makes him do all sorts of nasty things

[just like alienjeff]

[Sylvander]

I once wrote down all the names of the [younger?] brothers and sisters of Jesus.

Quite a list...
And their names all began with "J"...
What's that about?

[bugman]

there was a baseball player in the 50s-60s, vern law

he had a half-dozen kids, all of whose names begin with the letter V

what's that about?

[puppyluvr]

Wow,
I never thought I would see God compared to A.J...
The Old Testament makes God sound like a tantrum throwing child, mean and vindictive...
OK, I see it now...
And George Foreman named all his kids "George"..