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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 09:03    Post subject:  

Barry love SeaMonkey or he loves a certain size of iso file so he go for SM.

Other devs prefer Opera or Chromium or something else. Why no Firefox?
So they chose the one they like.

Lupu dev accept that everybody??? love choice and control over choice so many browsers are included.

But only those with very limited resources need to chose one instead of all three.

If you want to only have a CD or a DVD then maybe it is bad with choice of three.

Barry thought of to use a multi distro CD and then when one have decided it only make use of the preferred choice.
Even on a 1GB usb one can have two or three in fugal install?

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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 9259
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 09:03    Post subject:  

tronkel wrote:
Unexpectedly though, Quirky has turned out to be remarkably stable and well-behaved. I know this from having tested several versions of it. It might well be fine for use by newcomers. May not work with every single hardware combination - but the same can also be said of non-Quirky versions too.


Thank you. That confirms what I have felt about Quirky from my own tests.
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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 09:19    Post subject:  

To add to my above post about the hybrid puplet, what about stuff from Jemimah's puplet being included?

As I understand it, she would prefer to use Quirky as a base for the next iteration of Puppee. So if Quirky was chosen as the base for a new Puppy hybrid project, a possible outcome of this could be something called Puppee Netbook Hybrid or some such variation on this.

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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 09:35    Post subject:  

tronkel wrote:
@lobster @WhoDo

Life in the Puppysphere seems to throw up some unexpected or "Quirky" issues - something like Einsteins's (lol) Theory of Relativity where normality takes a holiday and Quirkiness rules instead.

Quirky was certainly meant as a bleeding edge test-bed for the latest ideas - complete with the caveat that it might not suit beginners or users who want things "just to work". So be warned!

Unexpectedly though, Quirky has turned out to be remarkably stable and well-behaved. I know this from having tested several versions of it. It might well be fine for use by newcomers. May not work with every single hardware combination - but the same can also be said of non-Quirky versions too.

Simply a case of intentions turning out other than expected.

OK say I'm a newbie and need advice about which Puppy version to go for. How would you lay out the options for me and on what basis?

I don't think newbies are here in these forums yet to ask that. They are going to download what is on the official site listed as the "official current version". Most won't find the forums or wiki's or other puplets until after the fact. They will want it to work before that, at least the basics.
I use 431 because that's what the official version to download was at the time (still is for now), and I have been hugely happy with it so haven't wanted or needed to try another. I think the question is, what is going to replace THAT? And whatever does, has to be something that will be regularly and reliably maintained and watched and fixed promptly if needed. I don't think Quirky fits that bill based on what Barry has said (although so far it sounds GREAT), no matter how stable it is. 432 seems to have been at least temporarily forgotten, and the rest seem to be very specialized. The successor to 431 should not be so specialized that only a limited number of people can offer support, either.

Last edited by shariebeth on Wed 05 May 2010, 10:15; edited 1 time in total
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 09:52    Post subject:  

Quote:
are going to download what is on the official site listed as the "official current version".


My poor skill in reading text again.

But what is it that Barry says on the blog now then?

Quirky 1.00 will be one of three official puppy named

Quirky puppy, Lucid Puppy and Wary Puppy? But I am poor at it. I readily admit that Smile

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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 10:09    Post subject:  

Ok *tries again*.
I am a random person who has heard somebody talk about puppy linux.
I then google "puppy linux" and get first up:
www.puppylinux.org
I go to that and see I can choose the "Downloads" page which makes me go "aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh how do I know which to pick??????? This is too hard and complicated!!!!!11111"
or I can go to the "Download latest release" and see ONE nice easy option with instructions.

This one nice easy option needs to be maintained regularly and reliably, must be generic enough that the majority of users/devs can give support, and problems fixed immediately.

This version is going to be the face of puppy. It will get people in the door. It has to work and it has to be supported. This is what will get people to see the other versions and want to try them too.

Too many choices too soon is not good.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 11:32    Post subject:  

I like your way of reasoning. That is the better approach.

I guess they got caught by the Lucid Ubuntu fever that 10.04 created.

But if Q1.00 turns out just right that can be the official Puppy Linux named Quirky Puppy or just Puppy Linux.

I just guess.

But the best would be if one could have choice in any kind of puppy which browser one prefer.

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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 13:27    Post subject:  

WhoDo appears to be talking to a brick wall - yet he has the most evidence to back up his statements.

At the moment Barry says Quirky is experimental. I don't recommend experiments to newbies, even if they are stable.

If you read the rest of Barry's notes on Quirky then despite the fact it might be stable and largely like Puppy now it might suddenly veer off into a new idea completely in the next release.

I must admit I don't understand Barry's direction on Puppy now. He gets concerned about Distrowatch ratings and decides to promote a triple wammy - none of which is called Puppy. Quite how that will put Puppy up the ratings is beyond me, even if it were a laudable aim. As Jemimah says - Barry is doing what he wants to do, which is fine by me.

As for getting a stable Puppy to recommend to newbies, maybe Barry is saying it is up to us now - don't rely on him to create it. He is offering any of the technology he creates in Quirky, if we want it, but the responsibility for a stable distro is ours.
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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
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Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 13:34    Post subject:  

There's no winning on the browser issue.

You have to include at least one browser or Puppy doesn't work "out of the box."

You can't include multiple browsers, or puppy is no longer small.

Alternate browsers can be packaged separately as add-ons which is how it's done today.

You can have multiple versions of Puppy with different default browsers - but as is noted above - too many versions is confusing for users and hard for devs to maintain.
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4796
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 19:41    Post subject: download  

Yes, the download is here: Download Latest Release.htm

shariebeth wrote:
I can go to the "Download latest release" and see ONE nice easy option with instructions.

This one nice easy option needs to be maintained regularly and reliably, must be generic enough that the majority of users/devs can give support, and problems fixed immediately.

..

Too many choices too soon is not good.


Sorry, if you are talking about users, then they still have 4.3.1. In that download page, it's only pup-431.iso.

Quirly 1.0 - is this for the general user public?

Many users are just discovering 4.3.1. If they discover Q1 and are satisfied, then well and good.

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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4796
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 20:15    Post subject: Fluppy  

I guess jemimah has made it clear that Fluppy will be here soon.

With Quirky released as "experimental", it's up to the community what to support as the next official release. The missing parts of a good public release, like themes, are already in puppeee, while package compatibility is already in Woof.

If Fluppy, as described, will be more general-purpose, I vote to support it as the next official release.

rcrsn51 wrote:
So what will Quirky 1.0 be missing that keeps it from being the successor to Puppy 4.3.1? A full set of drivers? Pretty wallpaper?


tronkel wrote:
How about implementing a hybrid project that might be called "Puppy Unity", or "Unity Puppy" ,"Puppy Unified" or even "Puppy Noobie" etc. etc.
..

This resultant puplet might be the one to recommend to newcomers.


jemimah wrote:
Fluppy is coming as soon as Puppeee gets released, which should be in the next month or so.

Fluppy will be aimed at netbooks and newer laptops; it will be built using Puppeee as a base. It may be able to run on older machines.
..

I'm considering using Quirky as the base for Puppeee/Fluppy 5. It's either that or the upcoming EB4. I think using Quirky would be a lot easier for me, but it would miss Debian package compatibility.


tronkel wrote:
To add to my above post about the hybrid puplet, what about stuff from Jemimah's puplet being included?

As I understand it, she would prefer to use Quirky as a base for the next iteration of Puppee. So if Quirky was chosen as the base for a new Puppy hybrid project, a possible outcome of this could be something called Puppee Netbook Hybrid or some such variation on this.

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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 21:44    Post subject:  

There are a few reasons why that might not work.

Fluppy will be a bit too big. Probably around 150-160MB with a generic kernel.

Fluppy will focus on newer hardware - I need the newest kernel, Xorg, etc. I add power management and other things that are not necessarily good on old hardware.

Google Chrome is guaranteed to cause a lot of politics.

---

I do think it's impossible to support both netbooks and old hardware well with the same version of Puppy. I would like Fluppy to be the version for netbooks and new hardware.

--

Ttuuxxx has done an amazing job on 2.14X - Barry didn't think it should be an "official version", but it's sort of miraculous how he's combined the old with the new to make something that that runs up to date software on older machines. Given the amount of effort Ttuuuxx has put into it, it really deserves more publicity. I really don't think the user cares what build system was used to build it, or what numbering scheme it has. Smile

--

If Barry doesn't want to be in charge or put someone in charge I don't think there can be an "official" version - I think LuPu has been officially blessed though. I'm not sure if enough of the community is on board here or not - I don't follow the lucid threads very much. Unfortunately Ubuntu brings a lot of politics with it too.

How much hybridizing occurs, depends completely on how much the developers help each other and talk to each other. Developing the necessary working relationships takes time and effort and has to be deliberate. Working with with other people is harder than building technology.
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2668
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed 05 May 2010, 23:29    Post subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
Ok *tries again*.
I am a random person who has heard somebody talk about puppy linux.
I then google "puppy linux" and get first up:
www.puppylinux.org
I go to that and see I can choose the "Downloads" page which makes me go "aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh how do I know which to pick??????? This is too hard and complicated!!!!!11111"
or I can go to the "Download latest release" and see ONE nice easy option with instructions.

This one nice easy option needs to be maintained regularly and reliably, must be generic enough that the majority of users/devs can give support, and problems fixed immediately.

This version is going to be the face of puppy. It will get people in the door. It has to work and it has to be supported. This is what will get people to see the other versions and want to try them too.

Too many choices too soon is not good.


I would suggest starting with Puppy 4.3.1, or 4.3.2 (is 4.3.2 "official" yet?)

If those don't work, then move backwards in time (retros, and/or Puppy 4.21, 4.12, and so forth).

Once you get your feet under you, then you can dabble in the more experimental versions.
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Terryphi


Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 763
Location: West Wales, Britain.

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 02:45    Post subject:  

The inconvenient fact for the Puppy community is that Barry has produced the best Puppy yet (i.e. Quirky) which I would happily recommend to a newbie. The only "problem" is Barry's continued support for Seamonkey. However, it can be easily removed and replaced by another browser such as Opera or Firefox.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 03:09    Post subject:  

Terryphi wrote:
The inconvenient fact for the Puppy community is that Barry has produced the best Puppy yet (i.e. Quirky) which I would happily recommend to a newbie. The only "problem" is Barry's continued support for Seamonkey. However, it can be easily removed and replaced by another browser such as Opera or Firefox.


but that was not was some wrote just a month ago. You could not remove SM without affecting libs needed for other programs.

But sure that maybe has been dealt with then in some clever way? Has it?

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