Barry wants to open a discussion on where Wary fits into the overall Puppy picture. Puppy is getting big now. With the many different Puppy variants in existence, it's getting hard to know what to recommend to beginners etc.
Attached is a schematic of one of many possible ways to classify/categorise the various versions. It might make it easier for both developers and users to get a handle on the ever-expanding choice available for Puppy users.
Wary 0.9 about to arrive.
Wary 0.9 about to arrive.
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Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer
A B C
Yes, right, A = Barry's R&D, and if you ask me,
BC = Barry's Choice. (But Barry's Special sounds more fun.)
Let Barry come up with his build choices for a Puppy that lives up to the goal "Have all the applications needed for daily use". And have all the R&D/community updates, too.
We can then expect Barry to have a yearly release of his choice Puppy every October (patches in between).
Sounds fun? To me, it is.
BC = Barry's Choice. (But Barry's Special sounds more fun.)
Let Barry come up with his build choices for a Puppy that lives up to the goal "Have all the applications needed for daily use". And have all the R&D/community updates, too.
We can then expect Barry to have a yearly release of his choice Puppy every October (patches in between).
Sounds fun? To me, it is.
Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? [url=http://puppylinux.info/topic/freeoffice-2012-sfs]Get the sfs (English only)[/url].
raffy wrote:
Same applies to Puppy. An October release seems like a great idea for Puppy also. Wary 0.9 should appear just in time to take the wind out of Ubuntu's sails. It should stay that way.
Edit: Come to think of it a Puppy LTS version seems sensible as well - i.e. a stable proven version that would be supported for 3 years. Puppy 511 is a great candidate for this, what with all of its cloud-based support etc.
In the meantime, the addicted tinkerers would have more than enough to satisfy their habit using Puppies from groups A and C.
Ubuntu is a case in point. Users are complaining that the 6-monthly release cycle is too short. Maverick Meerkat, due to appear on Sunday is said to have few changes compared to Lucid - other than the update(s) of the Ubuntu One cloud software.We can then expect Barry to have a yearly release of his choice Puppy every October (patches in between).
Same applies to Puppy. An October release seems like a great idea for Puppy also. Wary 0.9 should appear just in time to take the wind out of Ubuntu's sails. It should stay that way.
Edit: Come to think of it a Puppy LTS version seems sensible as well - i.e. a stable proven version that would be supported for 3 years. Puppy 511 is a great candidate for this, what with all of its cloud-based support etc.
In the meantime, the addicted tinkerers would have more than enough to satisfy their habit using Puppies from groups A and C.
Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer
Unfortunately, classifying Puppy variants is not quite as simple as it seems. The community versions tend to introduce what some of us consider unnecessary bling. No offence is intended to the developers but these versions simply do not appeal to me.
Those of us who prefer minimalism tend towards Quirky and Wary even though they are by definition Barry's personal projects and experimental. However, in my opinion Quirky/Wary are now mature enough as an introduction to new users who like the features they offer.
I agree with Tronkel and Raffy that a yearly release schedule would be adequate with also a LTS version supported for 3 years. I would like to see Quirky or Wary (or both!) versioned this way.
Those of us who prefer minimalism tend towards Quirky and Wary even though they are by definition Barry's personal projects and experimental. However, in my opinion Quirky/Wary are now mature enough as an introduction to new users who like the features they offer.
I agree with Tronkel and Raffy that a yearly release schedule would be adequate with also a LTS version supported for 3 years. I would like to see Quirky or Wary (or both!) versioned this way.
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BarryK
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My intention for Wary, and what I meant by "long term", is that when I release 5.0 (which will be the same as the 0.9 to be released very soon, except for bug fixes), that will be it. For the next 2 - 3 years there will just be incremental improvements and application upgrades. No bleeding-edge upgrades. All base packages, including gcc, glibc, Xorg, to remain the same.
Eventually, there probably will be a major jump, which will be the Wary 6.x series. Because, 5.x is based on Xorg 7.3 etc., and what is now bleeding edge will have become very mature. And, older hardware will have become much older.
Eventually, there probably will be a major jump, which will be the Wary 6.x series. Because, 5.x is based on Xorg 7.3 etc., and what is now bleeding edge will have become very mature. And, older hardware will have become much older.
[url]https://bkhome.org/news/[/url]
My understanding was that Quirky was the 'bleeding edge' experimental proving ground whilst Wary was intended to be the solid release for everyday use.Terryphi wrote:Barry: Thanks for making clear your intentions for Wary. That inevitably raises the question "What are your intentions for Quirky?"
Seems we have official releases from Barry and community releases covers the rest. Numbering gets confusing, so drop it. Then we will have Wary as the official release, Quirky the testing release, Lucid and Squeeze et al as community releases.
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Root forever!
Terryphi wrote:
We have still to see Wary, but there's no reason to think that it will be basically anything other than stable and small also, so this fits into Group B too. Puppy 511 by Playdayz is also bigger than the foregoing, but also stable and falls into the LTS category as well, so it goes in Group B. That's more than enough to cater for new users. If this amount of choice seems too much for newcomers, than Quirky should be thought of as a Group A R & D version again. This ensures that Barry has his experimental base to improve on and extend.
Maybe think about changing the names of the foregoing.
Quirky becomes Quirky-Experimental
Wary becomes Wary-Stable-LTS
Puppy 511 becomes Lucid-Stable or even Lucid-Stable-Maxima, because of its larger size and more complete live- CD user experience.
No doubt, Barry will think of revolutionary new ideas as time progresses. This would be the time to look for a new designation for what once was Quirky's role.
Bling for it's own sake is never a good idea in any Puppy Group B version, although smart minimalism is good - just as in Quirky for example.
That is indeed a point. Quirky was conceived only as an experiment but has turned out to be very stable, small and therefore popular, so it belongs in the Group B category. An unexpected contradiction therefore and maybe confusing for new users.Those of us who prefer minimalism tend towards Quirky and Wary even though they are by definition Barry's personal projects and experimental.
We have still to see Wary, but there's no reason to think that it will be basically anything other than stable and small also, so this fits into Group B too. Puppy 511 by Playdayz is also bigger than the foregoing, but also stable and falls into the LTS category as well, so it goes in Group B. That's more than enough to cater for new users. If this amount of choice seems too much for newcomers, than Quirky should be thought of as a Group A R & D version again. This ensures that Barry has his experimental base to improve on and extend.
Maybe think about changing the names of the foregoing.
Quirky becomes Quirky-Experimental
Wary becomes Wary-Stable-LTS
Puppy 511 becomes Lucid-Stable or even Lucid-Stable-Maxima, because of its larger size and more complete live- CD user experience.
No doubt, Barry will think of revolutionary new ideas as time progresses. This would be the time to look for a new designation for what once was Quirky's role.
Bling for it's own sake is never a good idea in any Puppy Group B version, although smart minimalism is good - just as in Quirky for example.
Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer
not sure i agree tronkel
tronkel wrote: Maybe think about changing the names of the foregoing.
Quirky becomes Quirky-Experimental
Wary becomes Wary-Stable-LTS
Puppy 511 becomes Lucid-Stable or even Lucid-Stable-Maxima, because of its larger size and more complete live- CD user experience.
No doubt, Barry will think of revolutionary new ideas as time progresses. This would be the time to look for a new designation for what once was Quirky's role.
surely it would be of more use to have somethink like:-
Puppy - Experimental (bleeding-edge) and Development (leading-edge) Branch - containing the sub-branches of Quirky, Squeeze, Saluki, etc., PLUS the development branch components of all the stable branches.
Puppy - Stable Branch - Containing the sub-branches of Puppy 5.1.1, Puppy 5.1, Puppy 4.3.2, Puppy 4.3.1, Puppy 3.0.1, Puppy 2.1.4x, Puppy 2.1.4ce, etc. ALL puppy's in here ARE stable and at lockdown. New users are initially pointed here.
Puppy - Specialist Branch - Containing the sub-branches of pupngo, TXZ, churchpup, serverpup. etc. Where the puppy versions have been developed to fill a specific roll.
Users and interested parties should be pointed to the wiki entry page which should have an explanation of the overall structure and links to the branch wiki entries provided.
Branch pages would have an overall philosophy of the branch plus links to the subgroups covered in the branch.
Anyone wanting to have or develop a specialist puppy would be expected as part of their "puppy certification" to maintain a wikipage. The other pages being maintained by the groups' involved in the creation of the version.
As the sub-branch develops to the stage that it moves from one classification to another a new branch in the tree is added in the new classification, leaving the old one there until it is sure that it's not required or available for further development.
As far as numbers are concerned, the first digit would correspond to where they fit in the overall Puppy world (where they began or link back to the stable tree).
anyway that's how I see puppy moving forward.
NOW, to get back on topic
Quirky1, I believe has already moved from the Experimental realm into a Development Realm (about 0.6) and seems to be fast becoming part of the Stable Branch. I applaud Barry's persistance in doing this so quickly. I do wonder though if he's still following his origonal design matrix for it's intent or has he branched again.
I believe his real question should be:
Does he now pass on the components of Quirky1 to the greater puppy community via woof and start a new and experimental format for puppy Quirky2. You see I believe his intent was to consider Quirky as an ideas/proof-of-concept branch, not a version name branch as the others have been in the past, therefore the number has no relevance to the package, it's just a placemarker.
I can see a number of experimental branches that his knowledge is necessary and that could be implemented to keep Puppy as a leader in it's field. One such is, the iso having a number of kernal packs already on it and the booting sequence probing the hardware and having the ability to select to load which one would be best for the machine, as well as later install (frugally or fully), rather than as we did with 0.8.0 picking which one we thought we needed and trying it out. Remember, the cd can have 650meg on it, it's only the actual running system that we would like to be small.
But i'm getting off-topic, so i'll end here.
regards
scsijon
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BarryK
- Puppy Master
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Wary 0.9 has arrived, see announcement:
http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=01849
To set a foundation for discussion about how Wary fits in, or doesn't, I created an introduction page:
http://bkhome.org/wary/
http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=01849
To set a foundation for discussion about how Wary fits in, or doesn't, I created an introduction page:
http://bkhome.org/wary/
[url]https://bkhome.org/news/[/url]
What I need from Warry Puppy?
1. Of course I need several puppy releases because I do not know how to re-master them. For the first time pluralism is permitted and I think that minimalism of Barry can coexist with more classic linux approach of the community releases which are also nice (in art and automatic installations. Puplets are also very good for me because I can take them as ready made specialized and large isos. I install them on several usb sticks in order to use them alternately.
2. I regret that I do not know how to make a distro of my own because I need some software there is not in puppy. My keyboard had some damaged keys so I need a docking screen keyboard as in mobile phones with touch screens.
3. An indicator to show me there are automatic updated
4. More non English support
5. Some cloud support to switch between puppies (now I use Google docs).
2. I regret that I do not know how to make a distro of my own because I need some software there is not in puppy. My keyboard had some damaged keys so I need a docking screen keyboard as in mobile phones with touch screens.
3. An indicator to show me there are automatic updated
4. More non English support
5. Some cloud support to switch between puppies (now I use Google docs).
Last edited by adi on Sun 10 Oct 2010, 13:03, edited 2 times in total.
To factor Lucid into the equation (if desired by Barry).
We have just yesterday decided that a Maverick Puppy is not worth the trouble. I found a number of things that were a problem including big ones like gtk+ and xserver-xorg.
We have a plan for what we think will be a nice Lucid 5.2, incorporating a number of updates from maverick, including sylpheed 3.1.0b2 fully functional with Privacy Guard, geany 0.19.1, gnumeric 1.10.8, mplayer 1.0rc4 with vpx, and some others. Personally I think the new mplayer provides better video and we are including the i686 alternate ffmpeg libraries. We also plan a new and improved first-run dialog (courtesy of shinobar), plus 01micko's Quickpet will soon be available to run on all Puppies! We hope for a compositable window manager (fluxbox) plus compiz available at release, and some bugfixes and other stuff also. We are tentatively thinking of about a month from now.
If there will be two Puppies 5, the marketing department (my wife
tells me that there should be definite points of distinction between them.
Lucid boots directly to the desktop
Lucid has Quickpet
Lucid has the puppy-lucid repo with many mainstream linux programs tested and configured for Lucid (Scribus, Kompozer, Blender, etc., etc.)
Lucid has Lupu News and Instant Updates
Lucid will run compiz (we hope)
Lucid has Browser Choice
We will go ahead and update Ayttm to a fully functional chat client
Lucid has updates from maverick (a kind of "rolling release" a la Arch linux)
In general, might we say that Lucid is the "luxury" Puppy and Wary is the "sports" Puppy???? That is just a first thought
<Better Idea: Lucid could be the Plush Puppy and Wary would be the _____ you fill in the blank Puppy>
The virtues of Wary are obvious. What we need are some marketing brains to make the distinction easy for people to see and understand. And of course we would hope many people would use both. And if we can help by modifying Lucid--say, by making a further effort to have more fully-featured, latest versions, for instance, then that can be done also.
I do personally think they will be different enough to co-exist without creating confusion in the minds of users. Or perhaps Barry would want to recast Lucid as a derivative--and Wary as the Official Puppy 5. We are good with whatever he decides.
We have just yesterday decided that a Maverick Puppy is not worth the trouble. I found a number of things that were a problem including big ones like gtk+ and xserver-xorg.
We have a plan for what we think will be a nice Lucid 5.2, incorporating a number of updates from maverick, including sylpheed 3.1.0b2 fully functional with Privacy Guard, geany 0.19.1, gnumeric 1.10.8, mplayer 1.0rc4 with vpx, and some others. Personally I think the new mplayer provides better video and we are including the i686 alternate ffmpeg libraries. We also plan a new and improved first-run dialog (courtesy of shinobar), plus 01micko's Quickpet will soon be available to run on all Puppies! We hope for a compositable window manager (fluxbox) plus compiz available at release, and some bugfixes and other stuff also. We are tentatively thinking of about a month from now.
If there will be two Puppies 5, the marketing department (my wife
tells me that there should be definite points of distinction between them. Lucid boots directly to the desktop
Lucid has Quickpet
Lucid has the puppy-lucid repo with many mainstream linux programs tested and configured for Lucid (Scribus, Kompozer, Blender, etc., etc.)
Lucid has Lupu News and Instant Updates
Lucid will run compiz (we hope)
Lucid has Browser Choice
We will go ahead and update Ayttm to a fully functional chat client
Lucid has updates from maverick (a kind of "rolling release" a la Arch linux)
In general, might we say that Lucid is the "luxury" Puppy and Wary is the "sports" Puppy???? That is just a first thought
<Better Idea: Lucid could be the Plush Puppy and Wary would be the _____ you fill in the blank Puppy>
The virtues of Wary are obvious. What we need are some marketing brains to make the distinction easy for people to see and understand. And of course we would hope many people would use both. And if we can help by modifying Lucid--say, by making a further effort to have more fully-featured, latest versions, for instance, then that can be done also.
I do personally think they will be different enough to co-exist without creating confusion in the minds of users. Or perhaps Barry would want to recast Lucid as a derivative--and Wary as the Official Puppy 5. We are good with whatever he decides.
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BarryK
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Lucid is the main leading-edge Puppy release as far as I am concerned.
Wary is targeting older hardware, and those on dialup. In my Wary intro web page I stated that Wary should run fine on computers 2 years old or older -- say manufactured in 2008 or earlier.
My Acer netbook was purchased Jan 2010 and has the N450 Intel chip with Pineview graphics, and Wary 0.9 can only run this with the 'vesa' or 'Xvesa' generic (unaccelerated) drivers. That's cos xf86-video-intel >= 2.10.0 is needed, which won't work in Wary.
So, a clear distinction could be that Wary is the "retro" Puppy, Lucid is the "leading-edge" Puppy.
Or, Lucid for recent computers, Wary for older computers.
Of course, there are other contenders for "leading-edge" Puppy: Sqeeze-Puppy or even Slackpup if anyone wants to develop that -- but these depend on a solid group getting behind and developing. My hat is off to playdayz and 01micko and others who got behind Lucid, which is why it is where it is now.
Another distinction could be that Lucid has more user-interface innovations, Wary is more spartan.
Another distinction might be that Lucid is likely to be more frequently updated, whereas Wary, by its nature as an OS for older systems, may have occasional updates (like when I feel inclined).
Well, whatever, I'm sure that we can come up with a simple and clear distinction.
Wary is targeting older hardware, and those on dialup. In my Wary intro web page I stated that Wary should run fine on computers 2 years old or older -- say manufactured in 2008 or earlier.
My Acer netbook was purchased Jan 2010 and has the N450 Intel chip with Pineview graphics, and Wary 0.9 can only run this with the 'vesa' or 'Xvesa' generic (unaccelerated) drivers. That's cos xf86-video-intel >= 2.10.0 is needed, which won't work in Wary.
So, a clear distinction could be that Wary is the "retro" Puppy, Lucid is the "leading-edge" Puppy.
Or, Lucid for recent computers, Wary for older computers.
Of course, there are other contenders for "leading-edge" Puppy: Sqeeze-Puppy or even Slackpup if anyone wants to develop that -- but these depend on a solid group getting behind and developing. My hat is off to playdayz and 01micko and others who got behind Lucid, which is why it is where it is now.
Another distinction could be that Lucid has more user-interface innovations, Wary is more spartan.
Another distinction might be that Lucid is likely to be more frequently updated, whereas Wary, by its nature as an OS for older systems, may have occasional updates (like when I feel inclined).
Well, whatever, I'm sure that we can come up with a simple and clear distinction.
[url]https://bkhome.org/news/[/url]
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Lobster
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They continue to do goodMy hat is off to playdayz and 01micko and others who got behind Lucid, which is why it is where it is now
Mick is releasing and changing the underlying Quickpet code to ensure that Wary can have drivers and other essentials easily available. That code will also work with other puplets and wooflets.
I would suggest the original 'triple whammy' Kennel release:
Puppy 5 Wary - two kernel choices for older computers, Quickpet enabled, compiled with Puppy binaries by Barry Kauler
Puppy 5.2 Lucid Maverick, combining fast Puppy woof creation stability with popular Linux binaries
Puppy CE (Community Editions) are configured by you, for you, using woof or Puppy remaster eg Puppeee for Eeepc's, PuppyStudio for musicians, Fatdog64 for 64bit computers, Quirky etc
http://puppylinuxnews.org/
community editions
All community editions were as new posts in a single puppy time line with an incremental number. Now community editions are not in the schedule except of quirky which is a fork. The community editions will also be forks or they will have parallel development in the main stream?
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Flapdoodle
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I tried several non-Puppy Linuxes (Lini?) recently. Most were impressive, but S-L-O-W. One that stood out above the others because the file arrangement was close to Windblows. Important to snag newcomers. It was CDLinux from China. Someday I hope to see Puppy have a more Windows-like file explorer.
I am in agreement with one other post here: Go for a 50-60meg distro, with the ability to add a multitude of optional PETS. Newbies LOVE optional add-ons to the extent that it will sway them away from distros with only a few add-ons.
I tried a DVD in 09... WOW. Better than my DVD player.
Only problem I have seen (other than the afore mentioned Nathan Walpaper problem, is my wireless mouse does crazy things. For example, opening the "bookmarks" may instead add the current page, some times as many as 6 times. This may be a mouse problem, or SeaMonkey. I am not concerned since this is a beta .9.
Thanks to all who have put in hard work on this. It is almost as fast as Turbo Pup Extreme.
Toshiba Satellite 1905 s301 w/256 ram
I am in agreement with one other post here: Go for a 50-60meg distro, with the ability to add a multitude of optional PETS. Newbies LOVE optional add-ons to the extent that it will sway them away from distros with only a few add-ons.
I tried a DVD in 09... WOW. Better than my DVD player.
Only problem I have seen (other than the afore mentioned Nathan Walpaper problem, is my wireless mouse does crazy things. For example, opening the "bookmarks" may instead add the current page, some times as many as 6 times. This may be a mouse problem, or SeaMonkey. I am not concerned since this is a beta .9.
Thanks to all who have put in hard work on this. It is almost as fast as Turbo Pup Extreme.
Toshiba Satellite 1905 s301 w/256 ram
Try this: set Rox file manager to show hidden files. Open/root/.flsynclient in a text editor, and look for the three entries called clickfinger1, clickfinger2, and clickfinger3. Ensure they are all set to a value of 1. Hopefully, that will fix it.Flapdoodle wrote: my wireless mouse does crazy things.
Spup Frugal HD and USB
Root forever!
Root forever!
Wary-090 on 300MHz laptop
Deleted post - wrong thread 
Methinks Raspberry Pi were ideal for runnin' Puppy Linux