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PupsaveConfig-2.2.5
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don570


Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 3359
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov 2010, 16:48    Post_subject: ask user for keyboard type  

Subject: Password entry

I think the best and safest way is to ask the user what
kind of keyboard he has.

There are 3 basic categories of keyboards,
QWERTY, AZERTY and 'others' As far as inputing the basic key
characters all QWERTY keyboards are the same except that "German'
keyboards switch the y and z. From reading on wikipedia I believe
all AZERTY keyboards are the same if one restricts input to
the basic character set.

Many Asians use a QWERTY compatible keyboard.

So I've designed a password window that I think is usable and safe.
Download it and see what you think.
http://www.datafilehost.com/download-e3a808ab.html


People who don't have a compatible keyboard are told to go 'Back'.
They could also be told to choose "Shutdown' or 'Reboot'
from the start menu and go through the legacy method of entering a
password.

Once a person chooses his password, the password has to be
examined for 'bad' characters, then the accepted password is transposed to
simple ascii characters appropriate for the encoding process.

In the case of the QWERTY keyboard this is a simple procedure because of
the restriction on y and z (Although I don't know about Asian keyboards...
you're the expert there)

In the case of AZERTY keyboards the transposing would be difficult but
not impossible. I'll give a couple of examples

France would be transposed to Frqnce
John55 would be transposed to John%%
Jacques would be transposed to Jqcaues

I think this can be hidden from user so he doesn't become
confused.

Pupsaveconfig would be successful in keeping most computer
users away from the console mode. That would be a great step
forward for Puppy linux. Smile
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shinobar


Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 2631
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov 2010, 19:26    Post_subject: Re: ask user for keyboard type  

don570 wrote:
France would be transposed to Frqnce
John55 would be transposed to John%%
Jacques would be transposed to Jqcaues

I think this can be hidden from user so he doesn't become
confused.

It can be a help for users to show what can happen.

This problem is not simple.
Well, we can manage as for the cases of North America and maybe of East Asia.
I'd like help of someone lives in Europe...

The encryption is recommended for the USB thumb drives.
We can carry it to another computers.

If you, don, carry the thumb drive on a trip to Europe, the problem may not be serious.
You can find qwerty keyboad in the internet café.
But some European may be able to manage the different kind of keyboard found there by chance.
Can be Belgian or Swiss, just my imagination.

In that case the safe characters are only the 20 alphabets and its upper case...

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don570


Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 3359
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov 2010, 20:29    Post_subject: alternative password  

I hadn't thought about the situation a business or tourist who is
travelling from country to country where there is different keyboards.

So what I would do is explain this particular situation
to the AZERTY keyboard user, possibly giving him
an 'alternative' password to try in case of an emergency abroad.

But since the QWERTY keyboard is so dominant in the world,
I wouldn't even tell the QWERTY user about the problem. It would just
sow confusion in the mind. I am a North American so I know
how fragile the brain is. Wink

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don570


Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 3359
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov 2010, 20:56    Post_subject: alternative password  

What if AZERTY keyboard user was to forget his 'alternative' password?

i.e. forget that France transposes to Frqnce,

That could be another great feature of Pupsaveconfig!!

Just input the password and click on button "Alternative Password'
in case of emergency abroad and France would be transposed to Frqnce.
Neat!
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noryb009

Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 540

PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov 2010, 21:38    Post_subject:  

Would it be easier to change the login script? It could first try what the user put in, then try to transpose it into QWERTY, then transpose the original to AZERTY format, and try that?

It would mean there are 3 different passwords that can get in, but it's still pretty safe.
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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11782
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 05:16    Post_subject:  

shinobar's post in the French forum draw my attention.
Indeed seeing the many possibilities with accented and special character those should be excluded and a message should be given if the password isn't made with the base alphanumeric characters.

For transparent for a user who travels, I think the password created should have somewhere an accompanying indicator on which keyboard that password is created.

When he comes on another PC with another keyboard, and when entering his password, the system should detect the user isn't at his normal keyboard. The user is encouraged to enter his password as he knows it and the system should convert to the other keyboard for evaluation.

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shinobar


Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 2631
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 08:25    Post_subject: Keyboards in Brussels  

Béèm wrote:
shinobar's post in the French forum draw my attention.

@Béèm. Thanks for joining us.
You live in Brussels and i guess you are using AZERTY.
Can you also manage to type with QWERTY?
Is it common you see both AZERTY and QWERTY in Brussels?

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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11782
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 09:02    Post_subject: Re: Keyboards in Brussels  

shinobar wrote:
Béèm wrote:
shinobar's post in the French forum draw my attention.

@Béèm. Thanks for joining us.
You live in Brussels and i guess you are using AZERTY.
Can you also manage to type with QWERTY?
Is it common you see both AZERTY and QWERTY in Brussels?
I have a Belgian Latin1 (as known in puppy) keyboard, which indeed is azerty. It is the Belgian keyboard layout which comes with the PC products sold in Belgium and it is used by the Flemish and Walloon people. (Not sure about the small German speaking part, I suspect they have a German keyboard)
If I have a qwerty keyboard, I can type on it, but I do it visually, not blind typing. If I have to type when my keyboard is in qwerty, I hate it, it is hell and I am lost. Hence my remarks I made when something goes wrong on booting and I have to type f.e. xorgwizard.

There sure are qwerty keyboards around, specially in international companies, Anglo-sakson based (I include US here Laughing )
There are also in companies using Italian, Spanish, Swedish, ...., keyboards. I am thinking f.e. at the offices of the European Community.

Also my mother language is Dutch, I express in French, English and German. But at work and at home my keyboard has always been Belgian.

As for my favorite language for computer related matters it is English.
I hate it that I have to buy a PC in Dutch or French. For English, if possible, quite an amount is charged supplementary. Therefor I am not too happy that in Puppy there is no (us/gb)_BE@euro locale.
But in KDE, using it know, I am able to define Belgium as the country and English as the language, while I still can have numbers, date, time etc.. in Belgian. I don't know how they do it.

Hope you have some more inside and feel free to ask more.

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shinobar


Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 2631
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 09:44    Post_subject: Re: Keyboards in Brussels  

Béèm wrote:
There sure are qwerty keyboards around, specially in international companies, Anglo-sakson based (I include US here Laughing )
There are also in companies using Italian, Spanish, Swedish, ...., keyboards. I am thinking f.e. at the offices of the European Community.

Thanks Béèm for the interesting and important information.
So the USB thumb traveling the PC's with AZERTY and QWERTY is considerable case, i understand.

OFF TOPIC:
I have never known the Flemish also using AZERTY. In the Nederland they use QUERTY, i suppose.
Yes i know English is not any of the official languages of Belgium, but they usually speak English(en_BE Question ) at there office.
(i have ever been to Gent, Flanders. Wink )

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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 10:49    Post_subject:  

Once again we being offered the ability
to configure in our desktop environment.
Many thanks.
Good plan Cool

I found more info but not sure what to download?
http://shino.pos.to/linux/pupsave.html

The latest file I found is Jan 2010? Not right?
Sorry Embarassed

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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11782
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 12:05    Post_subject: Re: Keyboards in Brussels  

shinobar wrote:
Béèm wrote:
There sure are qwerty keyboards around, specially in international companies, Anglo-sakson based (I include US here Laughing )
There are also in companies using Italian, Spanish, Swedish, ...., keyboards. I am thinking f.e. at the offices of the European Community.

Thanks Béèm for the interesting and important information.
So the USB thumb traveling the PC's with AZERTY and QWERTY is considerable case, i understand.

Yes I think it will not be easy to use a USB thumb with an encrypted save file. Without an encrypted save file, it's just a matter of running the mouse/keyboard setup.
An yes, Dutch people use a QWERTY keyboard.
France people use an AZERTY also, but not the same as the Belgian one. The differences are not the alpha-numeric characters but the accented and special ones.
Therefor it is a good idea to include/permit only alpha-numeric characters.
OFF TOPIC: wrote:

I have never known the Flemish also using AZERTY. In the Nederland they use QUERTY, i suppose.
Yes i know English is not any of the official languages of Belgium, but they usually speak English(en_BE Question ) at there office.
(i have ever been to Gent, Flanders. Wink )
You should have visited also Brussels with it's nice market place and Brugge.
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Bert


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 954

PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 13:59    Post_subject:  



This is what Belgian azerty looks like. Just slighlty different from the French azerty.

BTW -and off-topic- : Shinobar, Gent, that's where I live!
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don570


Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 3359
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 17:14    Post_subject: window design for bulilding new pasword  

I previously wrote in my last post
Code:

What if AZERTY keyboard user was to forget his 'alternative' password?

i.e. forget that France transposes to Frqnce,

That could be another great feature of Pupsaveconfig!!

Just input the password and click on button "Alternative Password'
in case of emergency abroad and France would be transposed to Frqnce.



I've made a window design to build the alternate password.
Hopefully there is enough info in the window that the user will know
instinctly what to do. Take a look.
http://www.datafilehost.com/download-7f28230d.html

By the way there's no reason to restrict Azerty keyboard users to
a to z. All the numbers are fine as well since they transpose
to ascii characters which are perfectly acceptable. (I think anyway...)
They would transpose to characters like ^&*#()@! which are ascii
characters , aren't they? So the console mode would accept them as input,
therefore they can be passwords in the Puppy way of doing things.

Here's a list of ascii characters for people who are new to computers
http://www.asciitable.com/

I think it's important that the password contain most of the
letters of the alphabet. Users will be upset if important
letters like a,m,w can't be used. Also y and z couldn't be
used because of the German keyboard 'problem'. So a 'Universal'
password is just not acceptable. Asking the user
whether he has a QWERTY or an AZERTY keyboard is the only
reasonable way forward. That my position for what it's worth.

It has the added benefit that numbers can be used in a password.

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I'd like to understand the Asian keyboards better.
Some seem to have the QWERTY characters printed on the keys
in the wikipedia pictures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout

.... but wouldn't the user have to switch keyboard layout
to a European language such as English to use these keys
properly as intended???

So the Asian user is using PupsaveconfigGUI
with a US keyboard layout but the program could be localized
to the Asian language so the user understands the instructions.
I hope I've got that right... Rolling Eyes
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Bert


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 954

PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 18:35    Post_subject:  

The problem is simple enough, but the solutions are indeed not easy at all.

Maybe one way out could be to present a small interactive generic keyboard on-screen? The user then has to click his/her password to access the encrypted save-file.Could even be an interface like seen on portable phones.Or just an alphabetic list of letters and numbers.
But of course I have no idea how realistic this is from the technical point of view.
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don570


Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 3359
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 19:24    Post_subject: The virtual keyboard  

To Bert


There has been some work done in this area (the virtual keyboard)
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?search_id=756078164&t=61144

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?search_id=957621040&t=37194

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I think the problem with booting up from a USB stick
in a different country would still remain. The transposing of the
password would still need to be done (I think ????)

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