Hi jemimah don't hold your breath, I'm still waiting to find out what is wrong with ROX from his testing results! what a week now for a single reply, this is going way too slow, I'm still nominating Bigbass as lead base developer for Saluki, At least we would have something by now to test or start building or at very least get proper responses about GlibC and Rox, 2 thing that are important. I feel that there are too many dreams at once an no tangible outcomes because of it. Being part of something and not having anything is really wishful thing. He's been at it for over 2 months now, and still nothing, and as he's hell bent on i586 where ubuntu is still i386 and uses a i386 patch, I could handle i486 but not i586, If we were ever to move to i586, I think we should have Barry's blessing on that first or at least a discussion on it, why be part of a group if your just talking to deaf ears. I for one once again would like bigbass at the helm. I'm not asking for a full release, heck just some thing that boots to a desktop and devX. I don't need printing, wireless, etc.
ttuuxxx
Saluki, Puppy Remastered
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ttuuxxx
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http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
I'm actually in no rush as I'm doing all my R&D with Fluppy right now anyway. I just upgrade things as needed and that works pretty well. I'm working on networking and a few other things right now. My main interest is desktop usability and functionality.
Anyone is free to post a base at any time, but Technosaurus' "mostly static" idea is most interesting to me personally, and I think it will be really solid once he gets it ready.
If BigBass has a base system ready to go with recent enough libraries to run newish applications, lets take a look!
---
I'm actually using Ttuuxxx's 4.3.2 build of ROX 2.10, with a few of my own mods and it's working fine. I just think that PCManFM is more intuitive and it's being actively developed.
Anyone is free to post a base at any time, but Technosaurus' "mostly static" idea is most interesting to me personally, and I think it will be really solid once he gets it ready.
If BigBass has a base system ready to go with recent enough libraries to run newish applications, lets take a look!
---
I'm actually using Ttuuxxx's 4.3.2 build of ROX 2.10, with a few of my own mods and it's working fine. I just think that PCManFM is more intuitive and it's being actively developed.
That needs doing!jemimah wrote:Technosaurus, if you're still playing with Gtk, we figured out that glib can be modified to look for drives under /mnt instead of /media. If you make the change, then your mounted drives show up in the right pane of Gtk file chooser dialogs
[b][url=https://bit.ly/2KjtxoD]Pkg[/url], [url=https://bit.ly/2U6dzxV]mdsh[/url], [url=https://bit.ly/2G49OE8]Woofy[/url], [url=http://goo.gl/bzBU1]Akita[/url], [url=http://goo.gl/SO5ug]VLC-GTK[/url], [url=https://tiny.cc/c2hnfz]Search[/url][/b]
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technosaurus
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I was wrong about it being a gtk problem directly, rox's problem is also glib related, but I haven't been able to narrow it down to a specific version yet. With recent versions, all drag'n drop functionality is broken and there are spurious menu errors that I can't seem to reproduce intentionally. Newly released versions of gtk require the latest glib and gdk-pixbuf releases, so it is a bit difficult to roll back to a known good version without rolling back the whole toolkit.
Check out my [url=https://github.com/technosaurus]github repositories[/url]. I may eventually get around to updating my [url=http://bashismal.blogspot.com]blogspot[/url].
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ttuuxxx
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Maybe try the rox compiled in 2.14X, it works on puppy 5 luci, so it should work for you also.technosaurus wrote:I was wrong about it being a gtk problem directly, rox's problem is also glib related, but I haven't been able to narrow it down to a specific version yet. With recent versions, all drag'n drop functionality is broken and there are spurious menu errors that I can't seem to reproduce intentionally. Newly released versions of gtk require the latest glib and gdk-pixbuf releases, so it is a bit difficult to roll back to a known good version without rolling back the whole toolkit.
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
Rox has always worked on every new slackware version I have used
all the file locations are different because puppy has always done its own thing away from the standard package
so I cant see why your are having problems with ROX
I also customized ROX for TXZ pup
ROX for me is one of my favorite apps
I just have to have it installed even if it isnt the default
@ Jeff, (ttuuxxx) looking around at what has taken place with puppy over the last few years puppy has become very separated into many speacial projects some follow on the whatever is the latest
and have "political interests" and are in fear to stray away because they know that their projects wont be accepted or recognized if they dont do it the only "recognized way " (is that what is linux in the real world ?) anyway for some fresh new outlook you have to have new outlook and be brave to do what you want to do thats the only way any real freshness happens
getting people to agree around here takes longer than building a distro
many good things have come out of this ,ideas have been brought into the light and I am very thankful Jeff that after all this time
we have come back around to seeing things the same way again
and we both have learned alot so that all gets filtered back into our work
I am very interested and focused on BaCon
and what it can do it is a wonderful project with linux compatibilty at its heart that means all the effort you put into it wont be wasted
because of incompatibilty (like all the guys here that write code and make packages just to have them outdated because the next new version kills their work
and now with Peter the developer of Bacon helping out this is a great opportunity to get some real new apps going !!!
Joe
all the file locations are different because puppy has always done its own thing away from the standard package
so I cant see why your are having problems with ROX
I also customized ROX for TXZ pup
ROX for me is one of my favorite apps
I just have to have it installed even if it isnt the default
@ Jeff, (ttuuxxx) looking around at what has taken place with puppy over the last few years puppy has become very separated into many speacial projects some follow on the whatever is the latest
and have "political interests" and are in fear to stray away because they know that their projects wont be accepted or recognized if they dont do it the only "recognized way " (is that what is linux in the real world ?) anyway for some fresh new outlook you have to have new outlook and be brave to do what you want to do thats the only way any real freshness happens
getting people to agree around here takes longer than building a distro
many good things have come out of this ,ideas have been brought into the light and I am very thankful Jeff that after all this time
we have come back around to seeing things the same way again
and we both have learned alot so that all gets filtered back into our work
I am very interested and focused on BaCon
and what it can do it is a wonderful project with linux compatibilty at its heart that means all the effort you put into it wont be wasted
because of incompatibilty (like all the guys here that write code and make packages just to have them outdated because the next new version kills their work
and now with Peter the developer of Bacon helping out this is a great opportunity to get some real new apps going !!!
Joe
I've been playing with Midori 0.2.9 for the past couple of days. It turns out that the Webkitgtk-1.2.5 from the webkit website is quite unstable. But I applied the patches from Debian, and now it seems a lot better.
The static build is under 5M (when compressed) and I haven't even tried building with Technosaurus' CFLAGS yet. It's quite light and fast too.
The static build is under 5M (when compressed) and I haven't even tried building with Technosaurus' CFLAGS yet. It's quite light and fast too.
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technosaurus
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I keep coming across programs that are way less resource intensive and _almost_ as good. I wonder where these could fit into the plans? mcwm is a pretty decent window manager (only) and uses less than 200kb, feh is a decent image viewer and uses ~5Mb (compared to 15Mb for viewnor), mmix is a curses style mixer (150kb compared to 3.5Mb for alsamixer), hv3 browser uses only ~30Mb and is also decent (better than say netsurf or dillo - amaya-gtk1 is pretty close though and it is a wysiwyg editor too)
the release versions of gcc (4.5.2) and binutils (2.21) are out now, with no really questionable commits - seems like an appropriate place to rebase
... update on Rox issues - as it turns out that the issues were only apparent with Xvesa - using Xorg vesa or the appropriate driver were fine, but 4 different Xvesa versions broke drag'ndrop capabilities - I'm not exactly sure why ... hopefully the frame buffer kdrive works better.
the release versions of gcc (4.5.2) and binutils (2.21) are out now, with no really questionable commits - seems like an appropriate place to rebase
... update on Rox issues - as it turns out that the issues were only apparent with Xvesa - using Xorg vesa or the appropriate driver were fine, but 4 different Xvesa versions broke drag'ndrop capabilities - I'm not exactly sure why ... hopefully the frame buffer kdrive works better.
Check out my [url=https://github.com/technosaurus]github repositories[/url]. I may eventually get around to updating my [url=http://bashismal.blogspot.com]blogspot[/url].
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Lobster
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That rather freaked me outcompared to 15Mb for viewnor
the file is 96k in Lucid . . .
====
Rox is more complete than other file managers. It is one of the programs we have practically no questions regarding it failing (just technical questions). Looking at the suggested alternatives, they seem second best unless using something like KDE, XFCE, Gnome which though large (we can cut) has some serious advantages for integration.
If starting from scratch using Gnome is much simpler (It was used for Puppy as an option but was difficult to get running and has not been seen since) but XFCE is probably the most Puppy/small. I believe XFCE uses Thunar, which then makes sense being integrated rather than bolted on.
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technosaurus
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technosaurus
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new package format based on big_bass suggestions:
(and some things I have picked up along the way)
txz (tarball compressed with xz -ze9)
pet spec file in the same format except outside the tarball with md5sum in the Nth? field
Maybe another field for the base url for unofficial packages too?
downside - another file for every package
benefits
easier updating, better compression, more standardized, 1 step archive utility compatibility
the ftp site would look like:
allpackages.info
abiword-X.X.info
abiword-X.X.txz
...
the .info files could be used for updates to the allpackages.info (for the package manager) and to generate a webpage (similar to pupweb.org) using a simple cron job
(and some things I have picked up along the way)
txz (tarball compressed with xz -ze9)
pet spec file in the same format except outside the tarball with md5sum in the Nth? field
Maybe another field for the base url for unofficial packages too?
downside - another file for every package
benefits
easier updating, better compression, more standardized, 1 step archive utility compatibility
the ftp site would look like:
allpackages.info
abiword-X.X.info
abiword-X.X.txz
...
the .info files could be used for updates to the allpackages.info (for the package manager) and to generate a webpage (similar to pupweb.org) using a simple cron job
Check out my [url=https://github.com/technosaurus]github repositories[/url]. I may eventually get around to updating my [url=http://bashismal.blogspot.com]blogspot[/url].
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Lobster
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How do we develop some momentum whilst awaiting the 'perfect start'?this is going way too slow
1. Did you know the Wii is Arm based and with Wii 2 likely to be announced this year we have a potential cheap ARM base in second hand Wii's (just a thought)
2. Will Saluki be able to make use of Honeycomb and Ice Cream (Android 3 and 4) or will it be yesterdays dog? (Just an even crazier thought)
3. Chromium OS is Chrome + a Media player from a forked linux kernel. Barry has talked of Puppy having its own forked kernel. (the men in white coats are appearing - they may be as illusionary as Saluki). Base + Browser + Bizzy.
4. Lucid 5.2 done. Are new Dorgs ready?
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Puppy6
Step 1
Create a bootstrap development environment
Step 2
Perfect the build system
Step 3
Compile Packages
Goals
* Compile from scratch for maximum speed and performance
* Create a new build system that supports multiple platforms, with a user friendly package manager, and a well stocked repository
Perhaps if those devs who've posted/can do possible starting bases gave a progress report as to how near/far from usable base they are?Lobster wrote:How do we develop some momentum whilst awaiting the 'perfect start'?
Perhaps also, if anyone can identify the inertia in the system, i.e. what's holding us up?
Is it just impatience/anxiety/excitement/frustration, or lack of skill...?
If anyone feels like 'jumping the queue' and posting something, if only to be a target to be shot down, maybe.....?
Otherwise....we wait, progress is occurring, ......but changes always occur outside any project, so sometimes you just need to say 'go', and deal with them as updates/patches, afterwards
AFAIK, the perfect [Puppy]linux doesn't exist...there's too much different hardware, and I, for one, don't know how to build specifically for what I have [changing as we speak - my mobo USB has burnt out....but instructions are welcome, for my new one
]Aitch
This thread was only started on the 3rd of September 2010. I don't think that actual beta test builds should be expected for at least another three months.
Wary5 and Puppy 5.2 are both out, BUT are in the "just after release" bugfix stages. All Primary Resources should be devoted to assisting with them at this stage.
People have put some ideas to the "pen" in the thread, but suspect more is still in the head.
Still don't consider the time "ripe" for starting another version, but DO think it's time to start "discussing" some details about what Saluki is for, what platform levels will be supported, what overall design structure it is to have, proposed size limits, build and release structure and codes (more on that below).
A "BASEPOINT" post, or is it time for a new topic (I don't think so as were still in the discussion phase, even if near the "serious" end) by Jemimah or someone "senior" if she is not available, giving an overall view at this point, containing the many convolutions already developed and discussed from this post so far in this topic is due so thay can all be considered.
And to all, PLEASE, NO SLAGGING ANOTHERS IDEAS just because you don't agree with them, be grown up enough to give decent reasons why they won't work, not just "it won't work" or the such. Remember this is an open topic and any member of the BB should have the right to add a comment, even a brand new user of puppy.
regards
scsijon
Wary5 and Puppy 5.2 are both out, BUT are in the "just after release" bugfix stages. All Primary Resources should be devoted to assisting with them at this stage.
People have put some ideas to the "pen" in the thread, but suspect more is still in the head.
Still don't consider the time "ripe" for starting another version, but DO think it's time to start "discussing" some details about what Saluki is for, what platform levels will be supported, what overall design structure it is to have, proposed size limits, build and release structure and codes (more on that below).
A "BASEPOINT" post, or is it time for a new topic (I don't think so as were still in the discussion phase, even if near the "serious" end) by Jemimah or someone "senior" if she is not available, giving an overall view at this point, containing the many convolutions already developed and discussed from this post so far in this topic is due so thay can all be considered.
And to all, PLEASE, NO SLAGGING ANOTHERS IDEAS just because you don't agree with them, be grown up enough to give decent reasons why they won't work, not just "it won't work" or the such. Remember this is an open topic and any member of the BB should have the right to add a comment, even a brand new user of puppy.
regards
scsijon
Last edited by scsijon on Fri 14 Jan 2011, 03:26, edited 1 time in total.
release structure and codes- alpha builds ONLY
An idea. Yeah I know I can be pushy, but you don't have to take notice!
Since I believe that there are a few interested in building bases or have already built something that may be used for or within Saluki!
And I recognize my earlier post on this topic, back on page 2 is a little complicated,
I was wondering if there was the option of alpha-ing with a code something like slki-A-00xx where
slki for Saluki of course
-A- meaning alpha test/development release
00 meaning first alpha (their further would be 01 etc)
xx is a two alpha code for each builder
meaning a number of possibles could be started and made available for "playing with by others and commenting back". Usual warning on not everything working of course, but a range of possible paths to try and think about.
I expect the number of builders would decline to eventually one or maybe three (old hardware, new hardware, laptop), with the early builders joining and working together.
When we move to beta, I would expect something like slki(-l-)000 would exist (where -l- would be a laptop build if that was the path decided).
I know I can have (almost) unlimited download bandwidth on my puppy site (in Australia) for something like this, so I can host them at the one site, if the various puppy alpha developers let me know where to download from, so all wanting to try/test can check for the latest from builders and do so without chasing sites. I would also think/expect that results to be entered in a "Saluki Alpha Build" thread, while ?this thread continues to develop as an ideas thread.
ok, that's my take on it at this point, over too you.
regards
scsijon
Since I believe that there are a few interested in building bases or have already built something that may be used for or within Saluki!
And I recognize my earlier post on this topic, back on page 2 is a little complicated,
I was wondering if there was the option of alpha-ing with a code something like slki-A-00xx where
slki for Saluki of course
-A- meaning alpha test/development release
00 meaning first alpha (their further would be 01 etc)
xx is a two alpha code for each builder
meaning a number of possibles could be started and made available for "playing with by others and commenting back". Usual warning on not everything working of course, but a range of possible paths to try and think about.
I expect the number of builders would decline to eventually one or maybe three (old hardware, new hardware, laptop), with the early builders joining and working together.
When we move to beta, I would expect something like slki(-l-)000 would exist (where -l- would be a laptop build if that was the path decided).
I know I can have (almost) unlimited download bandwidth on my puppy site (in Australia) for something like this, so I can host them at the one site, if the various puppy alpha developers let me know where to download from, so all wanting to try/test can check for the latest from builders and do so without chasing sites. I would also think/expect that results to be entered in a "Saluki Alpha Build" thread, while ?this thread continues to develop as an ideas thread.
ok, that's my take on it at this point, over too you.
regards
scsijon
When making Saluki, we have to remember Puppy's core goals:
- support for older hardware
- tiny, about 100MB
- really fast
And also:
- look great out of the box (vibrant colours, and a good background)
- have package compatibility with at least one "major" distro
Here are my thoughts:
- have 2 different downloads for older and newer hardware
- go through each program, the kernel modules, and anything else added, and post the size. We could then see what is taking up the most space, and see if we can shrink that
- start from scratch - might use some woof scripts, but would have new wizards (with parts taken from the old ones), some program substitutions (one per needed job), and new menus (control panel?)
- on the first boot, the user is asked some personal questions, like favorite colour, what image looks best (with a few WMs), ect. that would let them quickly configure a desktop theme for them
- support for older hardware
- tiny, about 100MB
- really fast
And also:
- look great out of the box (vibrant colours, and a good background)
- have package compatibility with at least one "major" distro
Here are my thoughts:
- have 2 different downloads for older and newer hardware
- go through each program, the kernel modules, and anything else added, and post the size. We could then see what is taking up the most space, and see if we can shrink that
- start from scratch - might use some woof scripts, but would have new wizards (with parts taken from the old ones), some program substitutions (one per needed job), and new menus (control panel?)
- on the first boot, the user is asked some personal questions, like favorite colour, what image looks best (with a few WMs), ect. that would let them quickly configure a desktop theme for them
-
Lobster
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This sort of 'instant SFS' approach
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 294#493294
allows for a Puppy of any configuration and size dependent on requirements
Is a modular or module based Puppy a Saluki goal/design feature?
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 294#493294
allows for a Puppy of any configuration and size dependent on requirements
Is a modular or module based Puppy a Saluki goal/design feature?
Last edited by Lobster on Wed 09 Feb 2011, 12:10, edited 1 time in total.
Barry is talking about wary 5.1 and using the mix-n-match system he did with the 70 beta's
I thought more about an idea I had once before and added it there, it may also be worth considering with Saluki. Not sure how the programmers/scriptors would feel about making the necessary program/tables for it though. Is it too complicated? or just the type of "step" Saluki should have!
quote:
2/ Since your talking about 5.1. I wonder if you could do a mixnmatch type package inside the iso, with a default (minimal) build to start it (with warnings), do a modprobe as part of the install routine, the results of the modprobe giving a list of suitable kernals and user asked which one to install with one of them marked as "most suitable for your hardware combination".
regards
scsijon
I thought more about an idea I had once before and added it there, it may also be worth considering with Saluki. Not sure how the programmers/scriptors would feel about making the necessary program/tables for it though. Is it too complicated? or just the type of "step" Saluki should have!
quote:
2/ Since your talking about 5.1. I wonder if you could do a mixnmatch type package inside the iso, with a default (minimal) build to start it (with warnings), do a modprobe as part of the install routine, the results of the modprobe giving a list of suitable kernals and user asked which one to install with one of them marked as "most suitable for your hardware combination".
regards
scsijon