Puppy on smart phones

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eztuxer
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Puppy on smart phones

#1 Post by eztuxer »

I can't wait to show off with a custom version of Puppy 5.2 on my HTC Hero
which runs Androïd until I can make the switch.
I don't know how much tweaking it will require, but I'm sure boot up time will be greatly reduced, and the whole thing will run much faster.

This wish should be interpreted as a compliment on Puppy general abilities, and high quality performance.

Boy, I just love the 5.2 version !
Last edited by eztuxer on Sun 09 Jan 2011, 00:02, edited 1 time in total.
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#2 Post by nooby »

eztuxer , I only guess but I find it very likely that HTC Hero use an cpu that needs Debian and Android has proprietary code so that would take someone doing all that work again so it works for puppy.

Seems highly unlikely to me.

But there are one smartphone that maybe use a standard x86 type of modern computer and maybe that one could be ported but that would be difficult too.

Does the hardware firms really give out those secrets.
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#3 Post by tronkel »

Smartphones as well as tablets are now a hot topic overall. I remember that at the beginning of last year I wrote a forum message saying that 2010 would be the year of the tablet. Several people disagreed. My estimate was in fact a bit out, in the sense that the real take-off spurt of the tablet form-factor will really start to show itself in 2011.

Microsoft is in deep deep trouble with this. They don't have anything at all that can compare with the Android platform. It is expected that it will be at least two years before a real Microsoft based tablet will come to market. By then the train will have long since left the station and their (Microsoft's) arch-enemy Google, will have won. Just as has been long predicted by many. Ballmer has a lot of explaining to do.

What about Linux in general (and Puppy in particular) as a smartphone/tablet OS? - well now, it's got to happen I reckon. With all the clamour for smartphones and tablets Microsoft and Intel have now lost the place they once had in high-tech. They will still be around, but they won't command the same market-share they once enjoyed. Google and ARM have seen to that.

There is now an absolutely golden opportunity for Puppy to step in here.

1. A customised kernel build with touch-screen capability and smartphone hardware support is required.
2. Once this is sorted, a customised Puppy user interface needs to be built.
3. An applications market-place needs to be set up.

Actually everything in principle that is needed is already mostly there. The Linux kernel already has touch-screen capability included. Google are to open-source their Android 2.3 Froyo kernel as well - so that could act as a starting point. Maybe a "puppyfied" Android version is the way to go.

Getting started on this yesterday is not too soon IMO.
I'll do further research.
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#4 Post by nooby »

I love to be wrong about this but as far as I know they still have proprietary code and that is why all those guys have to "jailbreak" to get root access.

And for how long will google accept that. I trust them sue those Devs that try to make a Puppy with root access based on android.

How else could one make it work? Sure Debian has code for ARM and RISC and such CPUs but then the Puppy Devs need to do all the other work and that would take years.

But hopefully I have missed something. Where do you have read that they really give up on their secrets? None would need to do jailbreak if it was open code.
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#5 Post by tronkel »

nooby wrote:
I trust them sue those Devs that try to make a Puppy with root access based on android.
Android itself is Linux and Google is obliged and does make the source-code available.

Only last week Google have been requesting that handset manufacturers supply their phones already rooted so that hacking (jailbreaking) them would not be necessary. Whether or not they (the manufacturers) would agree to do this is entirely a matter for them. I imagine though that handsets eventually could be sold rooted, but at a higher than normal price point.

Yes, it could be a long job getting a good Puppy version working on a smartphone handset. This has already been achieved on a tablet though by some Indian manufacturer if I remember correctly. So this is a start at least.

nooby wrote:
I love to be wrong about this but as far as I know they still have proprietary code
Stories have emerged in the past about Google being slow and unwilling to make their customised kernel sources available. They are on record however as saying that the source code for Android 2.3 FroYo is in fact to be made available. Google use various in-house-manufactured and customised Linux kernel versions for various purposes, other than Android, whose source code they do seem reluctant to make available. This is plain illegal according the terms of the GPL. It's Google who should get sued here if anything. Google seems to think that it is above the law - but appears to get away with it. Look at the data-gathering scandal they are involved in at the moment in various countries around the world UK, South Korea, Germany etc. etc.
Last edited by tronkel on Sat 08 Jan 2011, 21:29, edited 3 times in total.

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#6 Post by nooby »

Yes hopefully I am wrong but AFAIK it still is proprietary though?
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#7 Post by eztuxer »

tronkel wrote:
Google seems to think that it is above the law - but appears to get away with it. Look at the data-gathering scandal they are involved in at the moment in various countries around the world UK, South Korea, Germany etc. etc.
Image

http://biggooglebrother.org/

OMG ! Big Android Brother is in my Smartphone ! :shock:

One more good reason to run it with Puppy ! 8)
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#8 Post by eztuxer »

tronkel wrote:
There is now an absolutely golden opportunity for Puppy to step in here.

1. A customised kernel build with touch-screen capability and smartphone hardware support is required.
2. Once this is sorted, a customised Puppy user interface needs to be built.
3. An applications market-place needs to be set up.

Actually everything in principle that is needed is already mostly there. The Linux kernel already has touch-screen capability included. Google are to open-source their Android 2.3 Froyo kernel as well - so that could act as a starting point. Maybe a "puppyfied" Android version is the way to go.

Getting started on this yesterday is not too soon IMO.
I'll do further research.
I think we wont need to set up an apps market, we (you guys, I'm just an amateur) could/should make it compatible with existing apps like the PPM does with .deb PKGs. :idea:
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#9 Post by tronkel »

eztuxer wrote:
OMG ! Big Android Brother is in my Smartphone ! Shocked One more good reason to run it with Puppy ! Cool
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Other good reasons:

1. Puppy has already got the nice small apps that would suit smartphones. O.K., the PPM is the Puppy online apps market - as you say.

2. Puppy has easy remastering via it's built-in system as well as the Woof build system.

3. Good backup tools - very handy for smartphones.

4. Multisession system that can incrementally back up your
personal changes. Maybe not used so much for desktop systems - useful for tablets though.

5. Current smartphones - even the expensive high end Android devices from HTC, Samsung and the like, that use 1GHz processors such as Snapdragon are not really shatteringly fast compared to Puppy-based systems running on even quite ancient PC's. A significant Android problem IMO. Installing a customised Puppy version could improve this.
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GPL stuff

#10 Post by drongo »

You only need to provide source code if you distribute modified code.

Android is distributed to 'phone manufacturers.

Arguably, Google's special flavour of Linux they use internally is not distributed.

There's a sensible logic here. If someone modified Linux and never showed it to anyone else it would be almost impossible to detect. Once you give a copy to someone else, however, that is easier to detect and make rules about. Rules that are impossible to enforce are pointless unless they have some minor deterrent value.

I am not a lawyer!

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#11 Post by eztuxer »

tronkel wrote:
5. Current smartphones - even the expensive high end Android devices from HTC, Samsung and the like, that use 1GHz processors such as Snapdragon are not really shatteringly fast compared to Puppy-based systems running on even quite ancient PC's. A significant Android problem IMO. Installing a customised Puppy version could improve this.
Yes my HTC hero takes over 90 seconds to display the PIN login panel, that's way over puppy on my desktop full HDD instal wich takes only 22 seconds.
I'ts one big draw back for a phone, if it's turned OFF and you need to make an emergency call. :(

I don't know how big is their linux system file.

Some useful stuff to read:

http://source.android.com/porting/index.html

http://www.developer.com/ws/article.php ... -Guide.htm
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#12 Post by eztuxer »

nooby wrote:I love to be wrong about this but as far as I know they still have proprietary code and that is why all those guys have to "jailbreak" to get root access.
I think the main reason for "jail breaking" is that if they put root access phones on the market this should be done without any warranty whatsoever, 'cause folks would screw it up in no time.

Like Linpus lite on AAO is quite "locked" because it's meant to be used by newbees, same goes for Buntu, and other mainstream oriented distros.

Legal use seems OPEN:

Contributor License Grants
All individual contributors (that is, contributors making contributions only on their own behalf) of ideas, code, or documentation to the Android Open Source Project will be required to complete, sign, and submit an Individual Contributor License Grant. The grant can be executed online through the code review tool. The grant clearly defines the terms under which intellectual property has been contributed to the Android Open Source Project. This license is for your protection as a contributor as well as the protection of the project; it does not change your rights to use your own contributions for any other purpose.
http://source.android.com/source/licenses.html

In any case, we could ask them if they have any legal objection to the "puppyfying" of android.

I do not believe they stand on different legal ground than let's say Ubuntu, or Slackware.

The GPL licence remains valid IMO. :?:
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#13 Post by tronkel »

Does anyone in this thread have any thoughts on the way Red Hat and Novell S.u.S.e exploit the the Linux kernel? - e.g. you have to pay for a copy of either of these two OS's if you want to use them - and they're not cheap - especially Red Hat.

How does this square with the copyleft principles of the GPL? Are they simply allowed to close out the system to
you if you don't pay them? Doesn't seem like GPL to me - but then I'm no legal expert. Just because it has gone on for some time doesn't necessarily mean that it's all legal and above board. Who is to challenge them?

Do they really stick to the principles as defined in the GPL licence?
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#14 Post by amigo »

You are only required to provide source code if your *distribute* programs. Redhat and other such companies only distribute the programs if you pay for them -but they also distribute the sources to you at the same time, so GPL is upheld.

I wouldn't be too hard on redhat as they have been *the* major contributor to kernel development among the distros. They still have quite a few folks on their payroll who do nothing but work on the mainstream kernel sources. They have also, through the years, created or contributed to many, many small and large projects which are now, or have been, considered to be essentials.

All that said, unless I'm wrong, 100% of the redhat sources are available for download anyway -fedora and centOS are both built using the redhat sources.


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#16 Post by nooby »

Aitch have patience with me now. I mean don't get upset or angry!!!

I looked at one of your links. This one
http://computersnewbie.blogspot.com/200 ... linux.html

That one will give us Android withing puppy linux.

But what we want is to be able to use puppy linux on a smart phone.

Is that not the other way around. I feel like a true propeller head now.

which of the many links give us a chance to get puppy in a smartphone and not android in a laptop or desktop running puppy linux?
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#17 Post by nooby »

I trust that this link shows how incredibly difficult it is.

http://groups.google.com/group/android- ... b6351b06df

I quote
booting another linux kernel from a running android system

One of the real complications is likely to be that on a typical dual-
core android phone (original style with radio & application cores, not
dual application cores as now being advertised), it's actually the
radio processor which handles rebooting. So to use kexec, you are
going to have to get the application processor to simulate a startup
condition without actually having been rebooted (because if you reboot
the radio processor, it will load the flashed kernel).

Another option could be to build yourself a little lilo- or grub-
style menu into the early stages of the kernel, so that you actually
do reboot the entire phone, but get the option to pick an alternate
kernel before the default kernel has really started up and changed the
run environment from what an alternate kernel would expect to find on
startup.

End of quote.

So we need to find someone who has done that or nothing will happen unless we write it ourselves. We still ahve to jailbreak for to be able to start it up like that?

I am no programmer I only share your wish to be able to use puppy or any kind of Debian on an ARM hardware that now runs Android.
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#18 Post by nooby »

thos guys are doing something other too?

He use his Android Google One G1 smartphone and connect the USB cable.

Then he boots the Laptop or Desktop with the puppy he has on a SD card on that phone. so the Laptop or the Desktop is run from the SD card via the USB cable.

what he still fails to do is to start his G! with Puppy.

that is why I try to tell us this is much more difficult than what we think it is?

Am I wrong? :)

Taht does not mean we should not trying. I have two of these Android phones and want to use Puppy on them and that is for sure. But I lack the knowledge to do it so we have to search for someone that gets how it can be done.

As I get it we have to know the code that start the Radio circuit that start up all the other things too on the Android phone.

Here is the reason why me so pessimistic. They simply wants us to pay for to put puppy on a google android phone.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 207#485207
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#19 Post by eztuxer »

All this brainstorming and links are useful I think.

Running Android inside puppy, or instead of it, will teach us things hands on.
One thing I've read is that android boot within about 10 seconds on a laptop.
That OS must be very light.
On the other hand puppy is much more complete and could be stripped of loads of soft not needed on smartphones.
The aim is to as always run faster than the other ones, and that's what puppy is best at, so there's hope.
Thanks for showing interest in what was after all only an off the wall "weird" and crazy wish on my part.

Just when you guys thought you could finally rest a while after 5.2, here comes yet another exciting challenge for the geeks squadron. 8)
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#20 Post by Lobster »

All this brainstorming and links are useful I think.
Guys :)
Do smart phones 'run as root'? Tsk tsk isn't that as risky as running Puppy - or are we ahead of the game?
Which WM is most compatible with running on a touch screen?
If running Puppy on specific ARM hardware which would you choose?

Looking at this from multiple angles, there is Meego, Android and ChromeOS.
I can run virtual box and so run these OS in Puppy.
m m m . . .

However I believe using wbar on the right maybe and maybe 4 desktops of Puppy icons plus touch screen capability and we have something . . .
. . . for Intel Moorestown as soon as released

and an ARM device by compiling debs for a (yet to emerge) major adopted single device.
Yeah we can compile for ARM but which one? All of them is hard.

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