Puppy ARM?

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linuxgnuru
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Joined: Fri 14 Jan 2011, 11:42

Willing to give it a go

#21 Post by linuxgnuru »

I'll be getting (maybe sometime Feb) a CherryPal Africa laptop (arm-9 400mhz suspected) along with the Always Innovating's Smartbook (MID+tablet+keyboard) and I plan on testing out just about every linux dist under the sun (or should I say Oracle now) that work on ARM, including (and perhaps with more vigor towards) Puppy. So far, I have a plethora of machines running fedora, ubuntu, centos, yellowdog (on my ps3 and old mac g4), DSL, puppy, and slackware .. oh, and a kernel-only running on my dreamcast. Anyway, once these guys arrive I'd be more than happy to help out with Puppy-on-ARM project or just post what I'm doing/not getting to work etc.

nooby
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#22 Post by nooby »

Debian has for a long time have ported their basic things to ARM.

How easy that is to make a puppy of is way beyond my capacity to guess.

Those that have made Dpup maybe know more?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

nooby
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#23 Post by nooby »

ARM seems to be the future for low power Fan less computers.

Read here
http://www.gizmag.com/compulab-announce ... -pc/17664/
desktop PC replacement. There's also mention of the company offering more than one operating system working "out-of-the-box," but what will actually be running the show hasn't yet been announced.

Availability is expected to be some time in April

... NVIDIA's Tegra 2 processing platform. ...
The 5.1 x 3.7 x 0.6-inch (130 x 95 x 15mm) Trim-Slice is the company's smallest and most energy efficient model to date, having an average operational draw of just 3W. Within the rugged all-metal, nickel-plated housing beats the Tegra 2 heart, where a 1GHz Dual Core ARM Cortex A9 processor and an ultra low power, high definition GeForce graphics unit sit together on the same chip.

Supporting players include 1GB DDR2 memory and 64GB of solid state storage, with expansion possible via the duo of media card slots.


So would be cool to have a Debian or Puppy OS on such a machine.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

amigo
Posts: 2629
Joined: Mon 02 Apr 2007, 06:52

#24 Post by amigo »

nooby, you actually are quite right about creating a debian-based puppy for ARM. Anyone who has mastered 'woof' building and can compile and package all the extras which puppy needs which aren't in debian, plus adapt any scripts which need it, could fairly easily get a start on an ARM port. There are some difficult points, though. First of all with the bootloader -ARM can't use grub, syslinux or lilo. Then, most ARM devices are not gonna have CD drive. Even if they are not 'embedded' systems (like phones), they are still gonna need a way to be install to the hard-drive, USB Flash, SSD or whatever. Basically you'd have to create a puppy which is *not* a LiveCD distro.

That's the real sticking point, I think, because it requires re-designing the core boot-up procedure to fit the hardware usage. Otherwsie, you wind up with something that is much slower than needed. These devices are nearly all fairly low-spec hardware. It makes no sense to use up half of the RAM(already low), nor take the time to copy a rootfs into the RAM. Doing so means that for any program running, there are two copies of it RAM.

This is why I asked you the other day what 'feature' or characteristics of Puppy you would hope to see in your phone or other small device. It seems to me that most of what characterizes Puppy is exactly what you would not want to do on such a device. The (maybe) friendliness of the Puppy desktop is the only concept I see thjat really applies. Even the supposed 'lightness' of Puppy is not really so great for these devices -it simply takes too much RAM to be that effective -if the device has no permanet, accessible storage, you can't suppose to only run part of it RAM and have the rest in a frugal install or save_file. Do you see what I'm saying? There is so much that would need to be *undone* to make Puppy effective for these devices. It would be more expedient to start from scratch and incorporate the best ideas out there for the task -including any thing from Puppy which fit the bill.

I say it would be 'easy', but I mean for someone who knows how to do all these things. And it would still be a very large job. Also, there is one thing you need to realize, there is no ARM architecture. There are over 2,000 varieties of ARM! There are quite a few variant instruction sets, most of which are available for different hardware variants. So, just which ARM do you want to choose? All the work done above will have to be repeated for nearly each platform you want to support! Do you understand why this hasn't been done?

nooby
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Location: SwedenEurope

#25 Post by nooby »

Thanks Amigo, I read you loud and clear. It was even worse than my pessimism could imagine.

I don't remember if it was Aitch or Lobster or somebody else that wanted Puppy for ARM and I jumped on the train too seeing the need but that guy or those guys maybe wanted to encourage some of the Devs to get interested in it and even if I did not understood the difficulty I am a pessimistic person by nature and always thing things are way more complicated than what most people think ....

Anyway you confirm that this is much more difficult than what any of us enthusiasts could imagine.

So what would one do instead. We have smart phones that are almost like computers. We have ten or more Pads that try to out compete the Apples internet Pad and all these alternatives have Android on them.

And out there on internet there are "Mods" that modify Android so one can root it and add things that the OEM??? Operators did not made available.

But that is not what I like because most likely it is not legal to do such. I guess when buying one have accepted some Google policy to let them decide on such things. So what one need is an agreement with them that one are allowed to use these android devices under some regulated FOSS thing not making cash on them unless Google get their share maybe.

So we need then a Puppy SDK for doing apps for Android in Puppy?


That would be cool. As it is now I guess one need either MsWin, Apple, Ubuntu or Debian to do such apps?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

amigo
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#26 Post by amigo »

Before I say anything else, nooby, I want to take a minute to compliment you -your english is getting better!

I don't mean to totally discourage you about having a lightweight ARM installation. Starting from an existing debian port is the easiest way to go -but it means having a cross-compile environment for most arches. And, the ports they have already cover the few ARM instructions sets + arch which are most-widely used. They probably do not include your Psion phone, though, but who knows?

Devices which use 'meego' insetad of Android probably make for an easier target. My own interest in ARM support is mostly about having something for one or more of the ARM tablet-PC's. They provide an easier starting point. Installing a new embedded system -like on your phone or a PDA is a whole different problem and will always require one to be 'adventurous' and to be willing to give up your warranty on the device.

Aitch has been holding out hope for a long time now. Maybe someday we'll get there...

Jades
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#27 Post by Jades »

nooby wrote:ARM seems to be the future for low power Fan less computers.
It's been powering low power fanless computers since June 1987! :-) Acorn actually created ARM processors for use in desktop machines, starting with the Archimedes 300 and 400 series. Use in mobile products is actually a much later development (Psion Series 5, IIRC).
nooby wrote:Read here
http://www.gizmag.com/compulab-announce ... -pc/17664/

desktop PC replacement. There's also mention of the company offering more than one operating system working "out-of-the-box," but what will actually be running the show hasn't yet been announced.
That actually looks quite interesting. I have an Advantage Six A9home, which has 128MB of RAM and a 400MHz ARM 920 processor. It comes with RISC OS 4.42 as its operating system but it may be possible to run Linux on it, I've not really investigated it. It's a nice little machine, RISC OS just flies on it.

Slightly out-of-date A9home product page: http://www.advantage6.com/products/A9home.html

Retailer info: http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/indiv ... de=ADV-A9H

RISC OS developer: http://www.riscos.com
Zhaan - AMD K6 2 500, 512MB RAM, ATI Rage 128 VR. Full install Wary 5.5 [url=http://tinyurl.com/dy66kh8]HardInfo Report[/url]
Merlin - Core i5-4590, 8GB RAM, Radeon R9 270X. Slacko 5.7.0

puppyite

#28 Post by puppyite »

@ Jades
Like a blood hound I sniff (click) everything and this link is 404: HardInfo Report

@ Audience
No reflection on OP but: I own a TracFone. If our car breaks we can call a wrecker, that’s all we use it for. If I want something with smarts I turn on a PC. Not everyone is “monkey see, monkey do

Jades
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat 07 Aug 2010, 22:07
Location: Somewhere in Blighty.
Contact:

#29 Post by Jades »

puppyite wrote:@ Jades
Like a blood hound I sniff (click) everything and this link is 404: HardInfo Report
Cheers for letting me know, I've fixed the link. The problem turned out to be a stray uppercase letter i in the file name - looked like a lower case l so I didn't realise I'd forgotten to change it! :oops:
puppyite wrote: @ Audience
No reflection on OP but: I own a TracFone. If our car breaks we can call a wrecker, that’s all we use it for. If I want something with smarts I turn on a PC. Not everyone is “monkey see, monkey do
Zhaan - AMD K6 2 500, 512MB RAM, ATI Rage 128 VR. Full install Wary 5.5 [url=http://tinyurl.com/dy66kh8]HardInfo Report[/url]
Merlin - Core i5-4590, 8GB RAM, Radeon R9 270X. Slacko 5.7.0

gcmartin

ARM

#30 Post by gcmartin »

Just a question starting from teh beginning: ARMs have been around for awhile. Some ARMS have LAN boards, some have Wi-Fi boards, some have Cell, some have serial.. If you are going to talk to an ARM, what is going to be your standard forgetting teh device to begin recieving boot instructions?

For example, in the PC world, I have a LAN connection, where I can boot, say a porperly configured Windows 2008 configuration and logon to manage it without the use of a display, keyboard, or mouse using PXE. I've imaged that I can do this also with a Knoppix/Linux distro which I pre-configure to start SSH/VNC or something after it boots so that I can login and get a desktop. PXE is a standard

If I am going to use an ARM device, in today's world, what STANDARD must I set so that I can get something booted to make the ARM device useful so that I can achieve desktop/console?

I ask this to help. Hope this helps.

noryb009
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat 20 Mar 2010, 22:28

#31 Post by noryb009 »

Instead of a ARM based puppy with specially built packages, could we find a X86 emulator for ARM and work with that? It won't be as fast, but it would be much easier and could be done quickly.

nooby
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Location: SwedenEurope

#32 Post by nooby »

good suggestion but an emulator is not like a virtual thing is it because that would sandbox you so you see nothing of the arm thing at all?

But it would allow you to boot up puppy from within and then use the wifi to go out on internet and that is cool. But what else would it allow?

Sorry if I am too naive. We need to search for emulator for exactly the Arm for the device we own. I ahve two smartphones with ARM on them but they use a non rooted Android OS. So one are locked out from booting the emulator unless the SDK? could make it installed?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

noryb009
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat 20 Mar 2010, 22:28

#33 Post by noryb009 »

I'm thinking a minimal QEMU/virtual box OS that gives puppy full wifi, ports, file system, etc access. I'm not sure if this can be done, though.

nooby
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Location: SwedenEurope

#34 Post by nooby »

Hey maybe good news here?

Put this in google search bar

QEMU for ARM processors

I saw several intersting entries.
QEMU emulates the armv5tej instruction set and all the derivative processors families like ARM7, ARM9E, ARM10E and XScale. It emulates full systems like Integrator/CP board, Versatile baseboard, RealView Emulation baseboard, XScale-based PDAs, Palm Tungsten|E PDA, Nokia N800 and Nokia N810 internet tablets etc. Qemu also powers the Android emulator which is part of the Android SDK (most current Android implementations are ARM based)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QEMU#ARM

And others like that.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

gcmartin

Maybe ARM do-able then make a "bin" replacement for the ARM

#35 Post by gcmartin »

nooby wrote: ...
QEMU emulates the armv5tej instruction set and all the derivative processors families like ARM7, ...
... .
I see, I think.
  • Use QEMU to create an ARM environment on i86.
  • Then build/test a running ARM OS replacement to work out its bugs.
  • Then backup that running ARM environment.
  • Then restore that backup into a "real" ARM.
Yes, I can see how that might work. But, to build and test will require a community effort if you expect success.
Also, you must identify which ARM hardware you intend for ARM-PUP to run on.

Hope this helps

noryb009
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat 20 Mar 2010, 22:28

#36 Post by noryb009 »

No, my original idea was to port QEMU to ARM, then run QEMU on the device with puppy in the virtual machine. That way, instead of porting Puppy and all the apps to ARM, we just have to get QEMU working.

nooby
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Location: SwedenEurope

#37 Post by nooby »

noryb009 wrote:No, my original idea was to port QEMU to ARM, then run QEMU on the device with puppy in the virtual machine. That way, instead of porting Puppy and all the apps to ARM, we just have to get QEMU working.
I know too little but it do sounds like the best idea we have had so far.

But then one need one such Qemu for each different ARM architecture?

They are many. Sure one can look for which one are most popular among the most sold items. What is predicted to be the next best seller for 2011 2012?

I tested Vbox two days ago. Played with it for some 4 hours or so tested each iso I had. Some 15 different Linux or so.

Takes for ever to move the cursor from one end to the other on some.

Loading Firefox took so long time on some virtual Linux that I thought something failed. Nope vitual only that slow. Unusable. As I remember Qemu was also incredibly slow. They use special code to snap it up but that is code for 686 type of processors and not for ARM.

So if Qemu is similarly slow as vbox was slow then none of us have the patience to use it do we?

How does the Devs of apps for all these ARM goes about it? What do they use or make use of?

Don't get me wrong but you do know there are very many different ARM in actual use now and they are not compatible with each other.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

gcmartin

QEMU and ARM

#38 Post by gcmartin »

Thanks @Nooby for shining the flashlight on the real issue. That's is why I proposed idea in post below.

Let me see it this makes sense: QEMU is a package which allows creation of a Virutal MACHINE! To date, most of us who use VMs do so by telling QEMU to create an Virtaul PC where we then boot some OS in that Virtual PC.
It seems that someone had suggested. earlier, that QEMU CAN create a ARM Virtual device (I have NOT verified this though). If so, QEMU would alllow me to use my PC to create a Virtual ARM where I can boot my ARM's OS; say ddwrt for example.

Assuming I can do this, then it is logical that I can build an ARM OS and test it within that Virtual ARM to get it so that it mimics the same operations we see in Puppy Linux.

Once this is done, tested, and ready, I can then...somehow... load this working NEW OS into a real ARM device. And, have some guarantee that it will works.

What do you think.

Reason why you would do it this way, is because ARM CPUs do NOT have the instruction-set, yet, to compete on equal footing with an Intel-AMD or PowerPC CPU. They were initially designed with a reduced instruction-set so to do routing and communications ONLY. And have since been extended to storage devices (NAS), and of late, cell phones and PADs. These are NOT the "floating point" masters on LAN......today. And, up until recently, most (all prior) ARMs have so little memory that they are useless with todays applications; much less General Business OSs.

There may be merit to your idea in this thread. But build an understanding of what you want to accomplish and what you are going to be designing for. Then move forward.

Most of all, you should have a reason. One reason might be "let's see if we can do it?"

All followers of this thread should put their own ideas forth on this.

Hope this helps
Last edited by gcmartin on Mon 14 Feb 2011, 21:48, edited 1 time in total.

nooby
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#39 Post by nooby »

Your approach seems good to me but remember me know very little so I trust you grasp this much better than what I do. It soijnds very logical to me. So if that is your dream then go for it. Sounds promising indeed.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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Aitch
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#40 Post by Aitch »

Don't know if any of this will help?

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... h2cFYPtY5g

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM

http://www.debian.org/ports/arm/

http://www.ovpworld.org/download_ARM.php

As far as I know Qemu/VMWare/virtualbox/Xen can all run virtual/emulated arm

Qemu needs the accelerator KQemu, and is renowned slow without

http://wiki.qemu.org/KQemu/Doc

AFAIK Xen runs pretty much native speed, as it is fully virtualized hypervisor, whereas the others are paravirtualized

http://xen.org/

Only some virtuals allow host/virtual to communicate/read/write to common disk/networks - I believe Xen does....but I'm at the limit of my knowledge/expertise

Samsung Arm9 developer boards with 1gb nandflash are now c£60/$85 on ebay [China]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Samsung-S3C2440-A ... 19bf137e92

runs qtopia [http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=176144]

an extra £25/$40 gets you 1028x768@70hz vga o/p module
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

It's fun isn't it?

Aitch :)

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