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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Puppy Power
Puppy ARM?
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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Fri 03 Dec 2010, 21:41    Post subject:  

aarf wrote:
Is there some block to using operamini? Openmokko figures prominently in mickos link so is direct collaboration with openmokko also an option? Amigo hasnt shown any interest in posting his unfinished arm work online. Debian and ubuntu also have models to copy. Freerunner is mentioned as a platform although availability is an issue for me at least. If someone with knowledge could select a phone to target.
on reflection i'd like to clarify. My full although limited by knowledge support will be behind ANY initiative that gets puppy on any phone. Count on me for testing and use on a daily basis. I see browser choice as just another user downloadable choice of app from the many available and so dont see browser as a limiting factor. If micko and Pierre can swing this using any combination of surfer, deforaOs and puppy the sooner the better in my book.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Mon 10 Jan 2011, 02:36    Post subject:  

I am not sure but here is one reason it is so difficult to get puppy on ARM or pads or smartphones with Android on them.

The software and hardware guys don't want us to.


http://www.gizmag.com/android-3-0-honeycomb-tablet-os/17522/

Quote:
It's fair to speculate that in the coming years, Apple's locked-down iPad will continue to offer the best user experience - provided you're happy to work within the narrow confines that Apple allows, but Android will probably gain a larger market share by becoming available on a wider range of brands and devices.

It's also fair to speculate that Android tablets will likely suffer a lot of the same problems as Android phones: home screens filled with crappy undeletable apps added by hardware manufacturers or network service providers, Android Market apps that don't work or work poorly due to hardware fragmentation, and difficult operating system upgrade paths due to customized interfaces laid on by each manufacturer. These are unavoidable with an open system that runs on such an array of hardware.


These people are dependent on each other. No software sold then they can not pay the hardware guys. and vice versa.

So we need to get every potential puppy love to put in a fair amount of cash to preorder a version of an android phone with Puppy on it.

Then unless that firm get boycotted by Google then we get one.

Am I too pessimistic?

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jamalexa


Joined: 18 Jul 2007
Posts: 86
Location: Philadelphia, PA. United States

PostPosted: Mon 10 Jan 2011, 11:34    Post subject:  

I am also interested in using puppy for the Sylvania 7" or on a 10.2 " tablet I was going to buy. I'll read the ubuntu thread to see whats possible.
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Master_wrong

Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 456

PostPosted: Sat 15 Jan 2011, 00:31    Post subject:  

http://free-electrons.com/docs/

this would be a good start to port puppy to arm
http://free-electrons.com/docs/kernel-porting/

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Jan 2011, 03:41    Post subject:  

As I tried to write on some other thread. Booting seems to get the Radio circuits on the Smartphones to boot up first so the boot sequences are highly specific for each phone and that way it is guared by the manyfactories?

But I know too little to say anything.

an old workmate managed to find a program on internet that allowed him to root a windows phone and to boot android on it.

So why not use same program to boot puppy on it? Just a naive thought but I trust that program is highly illegal to use so I did not dare to ask him for its name. But I saw how he started the smartphone and could chose to either start into windows on it from built in ROM or into Android from the SD card with that boot up program on it.

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linuxgnuru

Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sat 15 Jan 2011, 11:41    Post subject: Willing to give it a go  

I'll be getting (maybe sometime Feb) a CherryPal Africa laptop (arm-9 400mhz suspected) along with the Always Innovating's Smartbook (MID+tablet+keyboard) and I plan on testing out just about every linux dist under the sun (or should I say Oracle now) that work on ARM, including (and perhaps with more vigor towards) Puppy. So far, I have a plethora of machines running fedora, ubuntu, centos, yellowdog (on my ps3 and old mac g4), DSL, puppy, and slackware .. oh, and a kernel-only running on my dreamcast. Anyway, once these guys arrive I'd be more than happy to help out with Puppy-on-ARM project or just post what I'm doing/not getting to work etc.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Jan 2011, 13:42    Post subject:  

Debian has for a long time have ported their basic things to ARM.

How easy that is to make a puppy of is way beyond my capacity to guess.

Those that have made Dpup maybe know more?

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jan 2011, 06:29    Post subject:  

ARM seems to be the future for low power Fan less computers.

Read here
http://www.gizmag.com/compulab-announces-tegra2-powered-trim-slice-mini-pc/17664/

Quote:
desktop PC replacement. There's also mention of the company offering more than one operating system working "out-of-the-box," but what will actually be running the show hasn't yet been announced.

Availability is expected to be some time in April

... NVIDIA's Tegra 2 processing platform. ...
The 5.1 x 3.7 x 0.6-inch (130 x 95 x 15mm) Trim-Slice is the company's smallest and most energy efficient model to date, having an average operational draw of just 3W. Within the rugged all-metal, nickel-plated housing beats the Tegra 2 heart, where a 1GHz Dual Core ARM Cortex A9 processor and an ultra low power, high definition GeForce graphics unit sit together on the same chip.

Supporting players include 1GB DDR2 memory and 64GB of solid state storage, with expansion possible via the duo of media card slots.


So would be cool to have a Debian or Puppy OS on such a machine.

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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jan 2011, 09:01    Post subject:  

nooby, you actually are quite right about creating a debian-based puppy for ARM. Anyone who has mastered 'woof' building and can compile and package all the extras which puppy needs which aren't in debian, plus adapt any scripts which need it, could fairly easily get a start on an ARM port. There are some difficult points, though. First of all with the bootloader -ARM can't use grub, syslinux or lilo. Then, most ARM devices are not gonna have CD drive. Even if they are not 'embedded' systems (like phones), they are still gonna need a way to be install to the hard-drive, USB Flash, SSD or whatever. Basically you'd have to create a puppy which is *not* a LiveCD distro.

That's the real sticking point, I think, because it requires re-designing the core boot-up procedure to fit the hardware usage. Otherwsie, you wind up with something that is much slower than needed. These devices are nearly all fairly low-spec hardware. It makes no sense to use up half of the RAM(already low), nor take the time to copy a rootfs into the RAM. Doing so means that for any program running, there are two copies of it RAM.

This is why I asked you the other day what 'feature' or characteristics of Puppy you would hope to see in your phone or other small device. It seems to me that most of what characterizes Puppy is exactly what you would not want to do on such a device. The (maybe) friendliness of the Puppy desktop is the only concept I see thjat really applies. Even the supposed 'lightness' of Puppy is not really so great for these devices -it simply takes too much RAM to be that effective -if the device has no permanet, accessible storage, you can't suppose to only run part of it RAM and have the rest in a frugal install or save_file. Do you see what I'm saying? There is so much that would need to be *undone* to make Puppy effective for these devices. It would be more expedient to start from scratch and incorporate the best ideas out there for the task -including any thing from Puppy which fit the bill.

I say it would be 'easy', but I mean for someone who knows how to do all these things. And it would still be a very large job. Also, there is one thing you need to realize, there is no ARM architecture. There are over 2,000 varieties of ARM! There are quite a few variant instruction sets, most of which are available for different hardware variants. So, just which ARM do you want to choose? All the work done above will have to be repeated for nearly each platform you want to support! Do you understand why this hasn't been done?
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jan 2011, 09:47    Post subject:  

Thanks Amigo, I read you loud and clear. It was even worse than my pessimism could imagine.

I don't remember if it was Aitch or Lobster or somebody else that wanted Puppy for ARM and I jumped on the train too seeing the need but that guy or those guys maybe wanted to encourage some of the Devs to get interested in it and even if I did not understood the difficulty I am a pessimistic person by nature and always thing things are way more complicated than what most people think ....

Anyway you confirm that this is much more difficult than what any of us enthusiasts could imagine.

So what would one do instead. We have smart phones that are almost like computers. We have ten or more Pads that try to out compete the Apples internet Pad and all these alternatives have Android on them.

And out there on internet there are "Mods" that modify Android so one can root it and add things that the OEM??? Operators did not made available.

But that is not what I like because most likely it is not legal to do such. I guess when buying one have accepted some Google policy to let them decide on such things. So what one need is an agreement with them that one are allowed to use these android devices under some regulated FOSS thing not making cash on them unless Google get their share maybe.

So we need then a Puppy SDK for doing apps for Android in Puppy?


That would be cool. As it is now I guess one need either MsWin, Apple, Ubuntu or Debian to do such apps?

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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jan 2011, 15:36    Post subject:  

Before I say anything else, nooby, I want to take a minute to compliment you -your english is getting better!

I don't mean to totally discourage you about having a lightweight ARM installation. Starting from an existing debian port is the easiest way to go -but it means having a cross-compile environment for most arches. And, the ports they have already cover the few ARM instructions sets + arch which are most-widely used. They probably do not include your Psion phone, though, but who knows?

Devices which use 'meego' insetad of Android probably make for an easier target. My own interest in ARM support is mostly about having something for one or more of the ARM tablet-PC's. They provide an easier starting point. Installing a new embedded system -like on your phone or a PDA is a whole different problem and will always require one to be 'adventurous' and to be willing to give up your warranty on the device.

Aitch has been holding out hope for a long time now. Maybe someday we'll get there...
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Jades

Joined: 07 Aug 2010
Posts: 432
Location: Somewhere in Blighty.

PostPosted: Tue 25 Jan 2011, 15:47    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:
ARM seems to be the future for low power Fan less computers.


It's been powering low power fanless computers since June 1987! Smile Acorn actually created ARM processors for use in desktop machines, starting with the Archimedes 300 and 400 series. Use in mobile products is actually a much later development (Psion Series 5, IIRC).

nooby wrote:
Read here
http://www.gizmag.com/compulab-announces-tegra2-powered-trim-slice-mini-pc/17664/

desktop PC replacement. There's also mention of the company offering more than one operating system working "out-of-the-box," but what will actually be running the show hasn't yet been announced.


That actually looks quite interesting. I have an Advantage Six A9home, which has 128MB of RAM and a 400MHz ARM 920 processor. It comes with RISC OS 4.42 as its operating system but it may be possible to run Linux on it, I've not really investigated it. It's a nice little machine, RISC OS just flies on it.

Slightly out-of-date A9home product page: http://www.advantage6.com/products/A9home.html

Retailer info: http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/individual/newprodpages/prodinfo.php?prodcode=ADV-A9H

RISC OS developer: http://www.riscos.com

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puppyite


Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 26 Jan 2011, 15:49    Post subject:  

@ Jades
Like a blood hound I sniff (click) everything and this link is 404: HardInfo Report

@ Audience
No reflection on OP but: I own a TracFone. If our car breaks we can call a wrecker, that’s all we use it for. If I want something with smarts I turn on a PC. Not everyone is “monkey see, monkey do”.

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Jades

Joined: 07 Aug 2010
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Location: Somewhere in Blighty.

PostPosted: Wed 26 Jan 2011, 17:17    Post subject:  

puppyite wrote:
@ Jades
Like a blood hound I sniff (click) everything and this link is 404: HardInfo Report


Cheers for letting me know, I've fixed the link. The problem turned out to be a stray uppercase letter i in the file name - looked like a lower case l so I didn't realise I'd forgotten to change it! Embarassed

puppyite wrote:

@ Audience
No reflection on OP but: I own a TracFone. If our car breaks we can call a wrecker, that’s all we use it for. If I want something with smarts I turn on a PC. Not everyone is “monkey see, monkey do”.


I'm still running an old Siemens A50, one corner of which is now held together with tape. I've never had any real interest in smart phones, I much preferred my Psion Revo Plus, a proper palmtop with an excellent keyboard. Really should get the batteries fixed - built-in rechargeables are never a good idea IMHO.

Puppy would probably run nicely on my A9 although the memory being limited to 128MB would probably be a bit of a challenge for something like Lupu. Wary would possibly work. It's even possilble to read RISC OS format discs with Linux although it may need to be specifically compiled in.

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb 2011, 17:26    Post subject: ARM  

Just a question starting from teh beginning: ARMs have been around for awhile. Some ARMS have LAN boards, some have Wi-Fi boards, some have Cell, some have serial.. If you are going to talk to an ARM, what is going to be your standard forgetting teh device to begin recieving boot instructions?

For example, in the PC world, I have a LAN connection, where I can boot, say a porperly configured Windows 2008 configuration and logon to manage it without the use of a display, keyboard, or mouse using PXE. I've imaged that I can do this also with a Knoppix/Linux distro which I pre-configure to start SSH/VNC or something after it boots so that I can login and get a desktop. PXE is a standard

If I am going to use an ARM device, in today's world, what STANDARD must I set so that I can get something booted to make the ARM device useful so that I can achieve desktop/console?

I ask this to help. Hope this helps.

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