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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Puppy Power
Puppy ARM?
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noryb009

Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb 2011, 18:34    Post subject:  

Instead of a ARM based puppy with specially built packages, could we find a X86 emulator for ARM and work with that? It won't be as fast, but it would be much easier and could be done quickly.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb 2011, 19:17    Post subject:  

good suggestion but an emulator is not like a virtual thing is it because that would sandbox you so you see nothing of the arm thing at all?

But it would allow you to boot up puppy from within and then use the wifi to go out on internet and that is cool. But what else would it allow?

Sorry if I am too naive. We need to search for emulator for exactly the Arm for the device we own. I ahve two smartphones with ARM on them but they use a non rooted Android OS. So one are locked out from booting the emulator unless the SDK? could make it installed?

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noryb009

Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb 2011, 20:29    Post subject:  

I'm thinking a minimal QEMU/virtual box OS that gives puppy full wifi, ports, file system, etc access. I'm not sure if this can be done, though.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb 2011, 20:42    Post subject:  

Hey maybe good news here?

Put this in google search bar

QEMU for ARM processors

I saw several intersting entries.

Quote:
QEMU emulates the armv5tej instruction set and all the derivative processors families like ARM7, ARM9E, ARM10E and XScale. It emulates full systems like Integrator/CP board, Versatile baseboard, RealView Emulation baseboard, XScale-based PDAs, Palm Tungsten|E PDA, Nokia N800 and Nokia N810 internet tablets etc. Qemu also powers the Android emulator which is part of the Android SDK (most current Android implementations are ARM based)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QEMU#ARM

And others like that.

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4238
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Sun 13 Feb 2011, 20:06    Post subject: Maybe ARM do-able then make a "bin" replacement for the ARM  

nooby wrote:
...
Quote:
QEMU emulates the armv5tej instruction set and all the derivative processors families like ARM7, ...
... .
I see, I think.
  • Use QEMU to create an ARM environment on i86.
  • Then build/test a running ARM OS replacement to work out its bugs.
  • Then backup that running ARM environment.
  • Then restore that backup into a "real" ARM.
Yes, I can see how that might work. But, to build and test will require a community effort if you expect success.
Also, you must identify which ARM hardware you intend for ARM-PUP to run on.

Hope this helps

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noryb009

Joined: 20 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Feb 2011, 21:41    Post subject:  

No, my original idea was to port QEMU to ARM, then run QEMU on the device with puppy in the virtual machine. That way, instead of porting Puppy and all the apps to ARM, we just have to get QEMU working.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Mon 14 Feb 2011, 04:10    Post subject:  

noryb009 wrote:
No, my original idea was to port QEMU to ARM, then run QEMU on the device with puppy in the virtual machine. That way, instead of porting Puppy and all the apps to ARM, we just have to get QEMU working.


I know too little but it do sounds like the best idea we have had so far.

But then one need one such Qemu for each different ARM architecture?

They are many. Sure one can look for which one are most popular among the most sold items. What is predicted to be the next best seller for 2011 2012?

I tested Vbox two days ago. Played with it for some 4 hours or so tested each iso I had. Some 15 different Linux or so.

Takes for ever to move the cursor from one end to the other on some.

Loading Firefox took so long time on some virtual Linux that I thought something failed. Nope vitual only that slow. Unusable. As I remember Qemu was also incredibly slow. They use special code to snap it up but that is code for 686 type of processors and not for ARM.

So if Qemu is similarly slow as vbox was slow then none of us have the patience to use it do we?

How does the Devs of apps for all these ARM goes about it? What do they use or make use of?

Don't get me wrong but you do know there are very many different ARM in actual use now and they are not compatible with each other.

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Feb 2011, 15:56    Post subject: QEMU and ARM  

Thanks @Nooby for shining the flashlight on the real issue. That's is why I proposed idea in post below.

Let me see it this makes sense: QEMU is a package which allows creation of a Virutal MACHINE! To date, most of us who use VMs do so by telling QEMU to create an Virtaul PC where we then boot some OS in that Virtual PC.
It seems that someone had suggested. earlier, that QEMU CAN create a ARM Virtual device (I have NOT verified this though). If so, QEMU would alllow me to use my PC to create a Virtual ARM where I can boot my ARM's OS; say ddwrt for example.

Assuming I can do this, then it is logical that I can build an ARM OS and test it within that Virtual ARM to get it so that it mimics the same operations we see in Puppy Linux.

Once this is done, tested, and ready, I can then...somehow... load this working NEW OS into a real ARM device. And, have some guarantee that it will works.

What do you think.

Reason why you would do it this way, is because ARM CPUs do NOT have the instruction-set, yet, to compete on equal footing with an Intel-AMD or PowerPC CPU. They were initially designed with a reduced instruction-set so to do routing and communications ONLY. And have since been extended to storage devices (NAS), and of late, cell phones and PADs. These are NOT the "floating point" masters on LAN......today. And, up until recently, most (all prior) ARMs have so little memory that they are useless with todays applications; much less General Business OSs.

There may be merit to your idea in this thread. But build an understanding of what you want to accomplish and what you are going to be designing for. Then move forward.

Most of all, you should have a reason. One reason might be "let's see if we can do it?"

All followers of this thread should put their own ideas forth on this.

Hope this helps

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Last edited by gcmartin on Mon 14 Feb 2011, 17:48; edited 1 time in total
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Mon 14 Feb 2011, 16:39    Post subject:  

Your approach seems good to me but remember me know very little so I trust you grasp this much better than what I do. It soijnds very logical to me. So if that is your dream then go for it. Sounds promising indeed.
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Mon 14 Feb 2011, 21:36    Post subject:  

Don't know if any of this will help?

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:e4Mm5NPr0kcJ:www.glomationinc.com/PortingLinuxKernel.pdf+virtual+arm+in+linux%3F&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgIhDj7zlLpFZWut4k1DOkHVmxlxhnxgnDCRhMusoO7C-fjy2zqHuC_Im0GdKCNl83je_SPFdoP_HF9LLu9DpxKIusAIveZbQCQDAsIvwUKTE9yC6HUqESnKYsZqrVu8Dt7nnGA&sig=AHIEtbSsabGGAgK_RoWgL0YVh2cFYPtY5g

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM

http://www.debian.org/ports/arm/

http://www.ovpworld.org/download_ARM.php

As far as I know Qemu/VMWare/virtualbox/Xen can all run virtual/emulated arm

Qemu needs the accelerator KQemu, and is renowned slow without

http://wiki.qemu.org/KQemu/Doc

AFAIK Xen runs pretty much native speed, as it is fully virtualized hypervisor, whereas the others are paravirtualized

http://xen.org/

Only some virtuals allow host/virtual to communicate/read/write to common disk/networks - I believe Xen does....but I'm at the limit of my knowledge/expertise

Samsung Arm9 developer boards with 1gb nandflash are now c£60/$85 on ebay [China]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Samsung-S3C2440-ARM9-ARM-Development-Board-/110579908242?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item19bf137e92

runs qtopia [http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=176144]

an extra £25/$40 gets you 1028x768@70hz vga o/p module
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320635299782&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

It's fun isn't it?

Aitch Smile
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Tue 15 Feb 2011, 01:45    Post subject:  

Aitch it is fun so you guys wants as many of us as possible to make a emulator that works on our intel? 686 machines but being an emulator it pretends to be ARM and it can be any ARM and one can learn how to make something that have the Puppy thinking built in to it and later when we knows how to we can make a "thing" that loads on the arm and works like Puppy in the end but on cheap Pads and cheap Android Smartphones?

I am not that bright but sure it is fun.

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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2315
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Tue 15 Feb 2011, 13:00    Post subject: Linux in ARMel based Amazon Kindle 3  

I've been having fun using puppylinux to telnet into my kindle 3. for 138.00 USD its a useful ARM developing platform. It also reads books too! battery built-in. I'm currently working on getting BACON working on it. its Webbrowser does not work with this forum for posting but reading is fine.

What is great is puppylinux has all the right software built in to support the usb network used to telnet into kindle. Laughing

so FYI
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2315
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Tue 15 Feb 2011, 13:09    Post subject:  

never mind posting now from within my kindle this site needs javascript I had it on. So everything here works fine.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Tue 15 Feb 2011, 14:04    Post subject:  

Ted that is progress indeed. I have always wanted an E-Ink computer.

I have to look it up so I know what I am talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_paper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle

Quote:
Kindle 3 was released on August 27, 2010.[6] User reports indicate that the new display on the Kindle 3, with E Ink Pearl technology, is noticeably superior to previous generations.

The Kindle DX line features larger screens than the main Kindle line and is marketed as more suitable for displaying newspaper and textbook content.[7] Amazon has also introduced Kindle software for use on various devices and platforms, including Microsoft Windows, iOS, BlackBerry, Mac OS X (10.5 onwards), Android and Windows Phone 7.[8]

The Kindle hardware devices use an e-ink electronic paper display that features 16 shades of grey. This allows for a long battery life and easy readability. Content for the Kindle can be purchased online and downloaded wirelessly in some countries, using either standard Wi-Fi or Amazon's 3G "Whispernet" network.[9]


wow you can even write in our forum using it.

What is this Telnet thing you talk about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telnet
Telnet is a network protocol used on the Internet or local area networks to provide a bidirectional interactive text-oriented communications facility using a virtual terminal connection. User data is interspersed in-band with Telnet control information in an 8-bit byte oriented data connection over the Transmission Control Protocol (TCP).

Telnet was developed in 1969 beginning with RFC 15,extended in RFC 854, and standardized as Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) Internet Standard STD 8, one of the first Internet standards.

So you steer it from outside in the same room or from you work to your home or what?

Can you not use it as it is, do you have to use another computer to tell it what to do. Wow I know too little. Smile

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Wed 16 Feb 2011, 11:04    Post subject:  

More ARM news

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=496041#496041

Aitch Smile
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