Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

[gcmartin]

Hi @Nooby
I think @Aitch is posting to help with understanding of ARM, news on ARM, and tools for setting up a platform to develop, build, and test using PC based technology. Once, you have built an OS for your ARM, then, you would "load" that newly developed OS into your ARM.

I don't think he was proposing that you create an emulator that will run on ARM. Remember, ARMs though powerful for their intended use, are NOT very powerful up against an Intel/AMD. So I believe he is suggesting that you use the much more powerful Intel/AMDs to develop your ARM's OS, then load it into your ARM.

Edited: 02/17/11 at 1:35PM EST
I think @Aitch and I are proposing the same thing here. Here it is:

1. When you install the VM product on your Intel/AMD OS; say Puppy, then that Puppy is called THE VIRTUAL HOST! This means that it can allow you to create little virtual worlds on this host.
   
2. Normally, creating a Virtual world, callled a Virtual Machine (VM) or Virtual client machine, let you start an Intel-based "virtual PC" which will boot another Operating system (lets say Windows).
   
3. At this point you have Puppy as the Virtual Host, and Windows is being run in a VM on the Virtual Host.
   
4. When the above is done, in the VM world we call the VM where Windows as running in an "emulated" area.
   
5. So when you say "emulated" in this context, we VM people believe you mean that the VM where Windows is running is an Intel "emulated" virtual machine. To us, emulated means a particular kind of VM.
   
6. Lastly, above I purposely used the word 'Normally" for this reason. Normally says Intel for a VM, BUT SOME VM Host products will let you create other "EMULATED" VMs for example, I can create an emulated ARM, or I can create an emulated SMP 64bit PC or I can create an emulated 16bit PC, or I created an emulated ...
   
7. Remember, I am "emulating" some hardware device virtually; and then I will run some OS on that virtual hardware device by starting it from the command line on the Puppy console (in this case).
   
8. Understanding this terminology helps you communicate accurately what you mean.

I recommend that you set up a VM host and then begin running some OS in one of the VMs you may start from the host's console. You will also notice that the VM Host requires you to tell him what kind of VM you want him to setup to emulate for you. He will configure whatever you tell him so that you can boot an OS into that emulation (a VM client PC). In fact you can define as many VM "worlds" that you desire making each world different from the others.

Hi @Aitch
KQemu AND Xen require Intel based processors which have the Virtual Assist Hardware built-in, so that it can achieve near native speeds. Also, Linux must be generated with KVM active so that it will allow KQemu and Xen to take advantage of the hardware assist features so that near-native speeds are reached.

As I remember, most 64bit AMDs have this hardware assist. With Intel, though, you must check the CPU number and "stepping" to insure you have a PC capable of VM near-native speed.

Hope this helps

[nooby]

gcmartin, thanks I get it better now after reading your description.

But would it not help much if one had a very common ARM with Android and then rooted that Android and get to know how that is set up and then on the big desktop also made an emulator of that version of ARM and there installed Android and there on the virtual set up one could test and test and only implement it when it worked.

My old Workmate who love computers but are less computerchallenged than what I am he installed on his Samsung windows mobile a software that could start up as Android or windows for mobile. He has a 4GB SD card in it with that software and can dual boot.

I find it likely that that Samsung use an ARM but sure I should ask him what version he has. It is a big 4" screen on it. Don't remember product model.

But it does show it is possible to change them but maybe not within the rules of the maker?

Apple on their lates iphone have set it up to punish those that "jailbreak" root.

So why would not google follow through and make Android sense that one have rooted it and shut off access to the operator?

[nooby]

I found this brave Italian Linux guy,

He is into MicroCore which is TinyCore only smaller.

TCL MicroCore on Eken M003 VIA MW8505 ARM Cortex 533MHz / 128MB / 2GB / LCD8 / Android

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt7YN8JL0pc

He mention it on the TCL forum too but very few seems interested.

He explains how he did it but in Italian in this post

[Aitch]

gcmartin

I think you grasped the point of my posts, but probably are more capable than me, judging by some of your other posts

nooby

I think when you say someone here can do it too, you may be right, but they haven't ventured to try yet

As far as I know, even if a basic conversion worked, it doesn't mean all hardware users would be catered for, and a virtual arm is different to an actual device, too

There is still some missing ingredient/person for this to happen....but it seems/feels close

Aitch

[nooby]

Yes he does mention the possibility of a virtual but was that virtual on the Android?

Did he use a virtual machine to load TCL MicroCore?

Maybe he did use Qemu for Android and telling it to emulate 686 or is it 486 code and then used that to load boot the TCL?

It was incredibly slow? So maybe I did misunderstand it then? But the translation from Italian? Does that indicate that it was a virtual thing?

He did write he used Debian code so that told me it was the real thing?

Does that not mean he reuse Debian linux but restructure it the way they are used to at TCL?

Robert S did teh DSL development and DSL is based on Knoppix and that one are based on Debian so that figures.

But sure I can be wrong. that almost none cared is very typical of the Linux mentality as I get it.

[aarf]

I think micko understand italian. Perhaps he can find out what he is saying.

[nooby]

Micko if you read this maybe you could ask him if he really use Debian code directly in Arm and then have made a kind of TCL thing or if he run TCL MicroCore in a qemu mode on the android?

That could be so because the video clip show that android actually boots?

So I was wrong then. It is a emulated TCL? That would not help us much would it? I should not engage in this future Puppy, I know too little.

Guys, I am over and out. But I sure loved the adventure. Pupy on ARM is my dream too that is for sure.

[WB7ODYFred]

Translatation from Italian to English using Babelfish for the Tiny Core entry. ()Microcore for ARM.

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Ftinycorelinux.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D8863.0&lp=it_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

[nooby]

Fred thanks for caring about us ARM lovers

bookcases of base already
compilation of the bookcases

You use Babelfish. I will try using googe to see what they suggest for the Bookcases. Could it be Directories or something? I just wild guess I get back.

[nooby]

Google translation of his comments.

Among the MISSING also wanted to write a clear guide `` Grin

The cross-compilation is one of the parties `s most advanced information technology: just create a working toolchain is an enterprise I do not think you can easily explain these things, we say that is a bit field is an initiative by` ALSO `I do not consider myself an expert essendomene affected by little, just to experiment on this tablet.

Documenting the procedure would be like without a script to recreate the Linux From Scratch project, I do not know if you know it.

My scripts do nothing more than automate the process of completing the basic packages and select the files needed to create Microcore (not the `entire distribution with all extensions of course).

Then there is the chapter of compiling the kernel, in the area know very little arm.

However as the project can also work with pre-compiled packages, who is interested in trying it on a virtual machine I can provide it, for now the architecture is that I tried with ARM EABI uClibc libraries, versatile platform / PB uClib or x86-64.

Finally, I tell you that I'd like to meet someone explain to me these things, as in a network are not a lot of information Grin (mainly in Italian)

Bookcases most likely is what we name Libraries

[nooby]

Here is googles try on same text as you had Fred

I write something about the compilation process:

WHAT MAKES:

* distribution Microcore 3.4.1 compiled for specific architectures
(more precisely, the file containing the microcore.gz `initramfs)


WHAT YOU SHOULD

* l `ISO Microcore
* `toolchain for the target architecture
* sources busybox, e2fsprogs, rungetty, module-init-tools, sudo, zlib
* core libraries already compiled (those of the toolchain)
* kernel modules compiled for the target
* my scripts to automate the procedure Grin
* physical or virtual machine to try it, eg. qemu



WHAT IS MISSING:

* compiling libraries
* Some programs like bcrypt, showrgb, etc ...

google did now that Bookcases in Linux is named Libraries so google is better than Babelfish

[nooby]

These people do what some of us wish we could do but it is not Puppy on ARM it is "a free, community built distribution of Android 2.3 which greatly extends the capabilities of your phone." Named
www.cyanogenmod.com

And they go Root to be able to do it too. But sure it is not Puppy. But they think a bit like Puppy users do?

[oldaolgeezer]

There has been a bit of interest in the Puppy forums lately about getting an ARM version of Puppy working on a tablet computer. (Tablet computers usually use the ARM cpu rather than an INTEL cpu.)

It has come to my attention recently that there is a relatively new OS called Duokan which can dual boot on the Kindle 2, Kindle DX and Kindle 3 (all of which use the ARM type cpu's. The Kindle 2 and the DX CPU is iMX3 400MHz ARM and the Kindle 3 is iMX35 532MHz ARM.)


for more about Duokan on older Kindles see:

http://flip.netzbeben.de/2010/11/duokan-available-with-english-gui-today/

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105847


I feel that as more non hardware vendor supplied Linux systems appear, Puppy's presence in the ARM cpu world is ever nearer.

[nooby]

Thanks interesting.

What formats can Duokan read?
* TXT * PDF * EPUB * MOBI * DJVU
* ZIP * DOC * CHM (but NOT HTML files at present)

Image formats:
* BMP * PNG * JPG/JPEG * GIF * TIFF

Audio formats: * MP3

Sounds good. And the Lite version was very small too.

[darkcity]