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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
Can 32-bit Puppy use >3 GB of RAM? (Yes, with PAE)
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 720
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 18:51    Post_subject:  

Flash - I'm not suggesting using 64bit. PAE uses 32bit, but adresses more than 3ish gig. I haven't used 64bit puppy, but my experience with 64 bit ubuntu, there is heaps of stuff that doesn't work so great, particularly media and flash content.

I can and do live with the imperfection. This is mostly inspired by curiosity if it can be done, but as I said before, some people might see it as a bug. Its been mentioned on the forum before.
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10829
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 21:09    Post_subject:  

Hi flash I can easily chewup 3GB compiling 2 applications running live, Qt and Seamonkey, Qt4 sources directory is 1.5GB after compiling it then you run the new2dir script and that installs around 500MB so that's 2GB gone, Then you compile Seamonkey and that sources directory is over 1GB, so theres the 3 gigs.
ttuuxxx

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technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4353

PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 22:07    Post_subject:  

It helps to have a really large swap partition when doing lots of compiling in RAM (though most guides only recommend 2x RAM... they don't assume we are running in RAM), linux will off-load the unused garbage fairly well.

Either way pae might be nice to have on the smp kernel versions.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10829
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 23:21    Post_subject:  

Yes I have a 15GB swap partition which helps, and if need be a 15-25GB pupsave.
ttuuxxx

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p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 720
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Tue 15 Mar 2011, 03:27    Post_subject:  

http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/119287
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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11122
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Tue 15 Mar 2011, 09:14    Post_subject:  

p310don, I think Puppy already has that highmem thing enabled. 32-bit Puppy can see more than a GB of RAM, it just can't see more than about 3.3 GB. Neither can 32-bit Windows. Theoretically, both should be able to directly address 2^32 memory locations of RAM, which is more than 4 GB. The BIOS shows the correct amount of RAM when the computer starts, so it's not a hardware problem.
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4368
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:09    Post_subject: 2 issues - FS and OS  

There are 2 issues at play here (really more) for 32ibit OS. File System (FS) and Operating System (OS) that run on a hard disk drive (HDD)

Lets talk about the easy one first - FS
FS (and they are all different) are build to address how Hard drives are used. Further, they are built with some understanding of what files will be used within them. Thus, FAT/EXT was built in 1984 with a particular mission in mind, while HPFS/NTFS/EXT2 came along with expanded missions. Following these came additionals EXT3/EXT4/ReiserFS that Linux also makes use of.

There is a FILE System size limitation AND a filesize limitation with EACH OF THESE!

So when building your LInux OS (Puppies, for example) YOU must decide which of these YOU will build on your PCs hard drive. In Linux, most uses are setup from PARTED/GPARTED for those that you build on a HDD.

Puppy offers us one more thing that I have ONLY used in Puppyland....Livecd-LiveDVD. This allows the LiveCD to set itself up in such a way as it runs totally in the system's memory (RAM).

And, since my Puppy use began, I have always delpoyed it on RAM PCs that had 512MB+. I have also done this with success in Microsoft and in IBM's OS2, that is, run so that everything the OS needs to present everything you want is running totally from your system's RAM, not the HDD.

How it does this is simple. When booting, looks to see how much RAM you have, then map that RAM as if it were a HDD, install the complete FS for the OS, then give the OS control where the OS thinks it is on a real HDD. In the case of this thread, you OS got loaded on an FS built in your 3.1GB of RAM.

To see how much you are using, go to Menu>System>Hardinfo and look at the Summary page. From Puppy's "point-of-view" it is running on a 3.1GB HDD. He will operate, on any files you want, exactly as if on a real HDD..

Simple to understand, right.

The OS is a different story,
It has "drivers", so to speak, that will do I/O for whatever FS it is capable of talking to. This begins a different venture because most of today's 32bit OSs It is called 32bit because that is the size of a chunk of data that it operates on whenever it does ANY TASK FOR YOU. Reading and writing data (I/O) is a task and the OS is limited by the PCs architecture. Couple this with the ARCHITECTURE of the FS and you will find how the file and the filesystem manifest themselves.

32bit Puppy, from LIveCD, runnig in RAM, on any PC respects those FS architectures. Further, all Puppies (as far as I know) are designed to run on 32bit Architectures with 64MB-128MB of RAM. The fact that you have more is good for you can use the extra memory for added functionality that you can employ in that extra space if you so choose.

Again, Simple to understand, right.

My use of DOGS from the Puppy community
I have found my LiveCD-LiveDVD environments to be very advantageous.

And, I also have been using the 64bit FATDOG (a different specie of Puppy, think of it as an "evolved" Puppy) in LiveDVD mode very stably on a 4MB and 8MB systems. Stable and responsively with SAMBA 3.5.6. This makes FATDOG do 99% of what you get from VISTA/XP. These 64bit PCs share files securely from its RAM with other PCs on my LAN same as my XP/Vista PCs do. A very good combination for me.

The OS itself (Linux/Microsoft/Unix/Mainframe) are constrained ONLY by the bit type of the CPU in th machine; either 32bit or 64bit, today. And ALL OS functions, tools, services MUST be built/compiled to take advantage of which of these 2 PCs it will run on so that it can take advantage of their advantages. So, its obvious (I think) that a 64bit OS can handle much-much larger programs than the same 32bit PC is capable of. In the labs from the user's perspective we have found that a 64bit system can run just as fast with much more stability and much more functionality than we ever could with 16/32bit PC. The programmer now can apply more checks and balances without sacrificing performance with their programs when they are on 64bit architecturess than they ever could on 32bit architectures.

To date, I have never installed a DOG on any HDD that I have...ever! The Multi-session LiveDVD allows me to do everything I need in the world of Puppy distros .

FINALLY
ALL Puppy incarnations, as far as I know, will use any available memory when running is a RAM based system for files and filesystem use. On the other hand, the OS is limited in how many programs it can load within an 32bit Address-space. It has much more room on 64bit Architectures.

Simple, huh?

Hope this helps

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p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 720
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Tue 15 Mar 2011, 19:22    Post_subject:  

gcmartin - I think you just melted my brain. I'll re-read that after breakfast and caffeine and get back to you.... Very Happy
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4368
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Wed 16 Mar 2011, 22:20    Post_subject: Summarize  

p310don wrote:
gcmartin - I think you just melted my brain. I'll re-read that after breakfast and caffeine and get back to you.... Very Happy
Sorry, I had no intention of confusing or talking at a high level. I apologize.

Let me summarize; "ALL PUPs use 3.1GB of RAM when booted pfix=ram on LiveCD."

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p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 720
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Wed 16 Mar 2011, 22:57    Post_subject:  

gcmartin - Thanks for the summary, I have re-read your mini-novel a couple of times, and am still confused. You say all pups use 3.1gig. I know that. That's my point. Is there a way around it to make 4 gig, or greater, usable in a 32bit environment. And of course, is it worth it?
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Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3972
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Thu 17 Mar 2011, 08:38    Post_subject:  

I just want to post, that
CONFIG_HIGHMEM64G=y

is only possible if you choose any other architecture than i386 and i486 .

Even if you choose Pentium_II or Pentium_Pro you can choose 64G . Rolling Eyes
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4368
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Thu 17 Mar 2011, 15:05    Post_subject: What's in your wallet  

Go to Menu > System and click Hardinfo

On the left side click Summary
On the right side what do you see? I see
Code:
-Computer-
Processor      : 2x AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4600+
Memory      : 4054MB (2208MB used)
Operating System      : Puppy Linux 0.50
User Name      : root (root)
Date/Time      : Thu 17 Mar 2011 02:03:49 PM GMT+5
-Display- ....


On the left side click Filesystems
On the right side what do you see? I see
Code:
-Mounted File Systems-
rootfs      : 3.9 GiB total, 2.6 GiB free
tmpfs      : 3.9 GiB total, 2.6 GiB free
tmpfs      : 1.9 GiB total, 1.5 GiB free
tmpfs      : 183.7 MiB total, 1.6 MiB free
/dev/loop0      : 181.8 MiB total, 0.0 B free
unionfs      : 3.9 GiB total, 2.6 GiB free
....
This system has SM with 19 sites active and 1 streaming radio site, AND, I have a FF also running with 9 sites open, AND, I have 6 Abiword documents open, AND, 4 Geany txt files open, AND, 3 different Terminals all running right now. Further, I have downloaded over 1.2GB of files in last 48 hours all running in this LiveDVD 4GB RAM PUP.

What do you see?

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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11122
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Thu 17 Mar 2011, 16:24    Post_subject:  

Here's what I see, in a computer with 4 GB of RAM but no hard disk, running Puppy from a multisession DVD.

By the way, how did you copy the output of hardinfo into your post?
Hardinfo output.jpg
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Hardinfo output.jpg

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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5867
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Thu 17 Mar 2011, 16:37    Post_subject:  

Flash wrote:

By the way, how did you copy the output of hardinfo into your post?


I click "copy to clipboard", then open the clipboard and copy and paste whatever into the post.
HTH.
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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11122
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Thu 17 Mar 2011, 16:46    Post_subject:  

Thanks. I never tried to copy anything from that window before. Smile
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