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Simple English (new Puppy docu project from Iguleder)
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oui

Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 2169
Location: near Woof (Germany) :-) Acer Laptop emachines 2 GB RAM AMD64. franco-/germanophone, +/- anglophone

PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr 2011, 03:58    Post_subject:  Simple English (new Puppy docu project from Iguleder)  

I found the proposal from Iguleder here


Iguleder wrote:
Xrter (on IRC, on the forums he's Saturn) had a brilliant initiative to write a new Puppy wiki, and I'm trying to arrange things for this.

...

All my articles will be written in simple English, with small, JPG screenshots for almost each 1-2 paragraphs. My list of articles is not final, I may add or remove articles from it.

....

I think we should write articles in Abiword or OpenOffice and save them as ODT, so everyone can view and edit them, is that alright? When you're done writing an article, post it here, we'll polish it together. When Xrter is done setting up the wiki we'll move it there.

Good luck with this thing Wink



to write in simple English very good!

but what is simple English?

for a German person it should be somewhat like BASIC English, the only one well normed simple English.

For French people or probably for speakers from other latin languages makes this form of English a special form of difficulty:

Latin language speakers can not deal with compound verbs as very frequent in English especially in real BASIC English, and German, they prefer a new verb for each situation (French speakers of France use about 5.500 verbs and French speakers of Canada about 800 more verbs as in France!).

It would certainly be an interesting stand alone project to define a kind of 'Computer world high standardized simple English' because it would really make multi language documentation more or less superfluous!

(more if we reach the goal, less if we can not find a really simple proposal Rolling Eyes ...)

It could be proposed as a reduced dictionary for Seamonkey, the most standard Puppy browser, and check if the used word are contained in it!

PS: I would also find a Puppy version using more little icons (special characters fond! somewhat like Chinese signs) in the sub menus (perhaps in the more important standard applications as Abi instead texts) more international instead of an adduced multi language system! one unique character fond would do it for all linux's of the world! no more translation! highly standardized environment for all people if ONE staff would solve on time this problem!
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr 2011, 04:43    Post_subject:  

My English is so home grown or Moon Shined that I should not utter anything here but my experience of Artificial Language Projects is that "Simple" maybe be even more difficult to grasp than "ordinary everyday" such.

It all depends on what one refers to as simple.

So using a more simple spelling of words may seem very simple but to the untrained eye like myself it made reading almost impossible.

We have now a member of the forum that use such "internet" English where he replace you with u and similar short cuts.


To him that is simple English. To me it was super hard to get English. LOL

LOL is example of modern "Simple English" so it all depends on what one refers to as being simple. Simple for the writer or simple for the reader? How does the writer know it is simple for the reader if he doesn't ask them first? So to write simple is very hard for the writer Smile

I wild guess that Iguleder refers to that one avoid highly Latin? words like deprecated and contamined and others that still is not "ordinary everyday speech" among us Average Joe" type users.

To avoid Academia English? Learned English

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Luluc


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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr 2011, 06:17    Post_subject:  

I really like the idea of new documentation. I have been testing Puppy and reading this forum for about a month, and still there are things that I don't know:

- What is Snow Puppy?

- What is Wary?

- What is Quirky?

- How are these other versions different from "official" Puppy?

- What are other versions of Puppy?

- Where are the repositories of PET packages? Besides the ones suggested by petget, where else can I get pets and SFS?

- What file systems can I use in my save file? Can I use ext4?

- Can I backup my save file while it's in use i.e. mounted and running?

This is just off the top of my head. I am sure there is more I don't remember right now.

The worst thing I notice about Puppy is how incredibly messy it is. Its wild and cluttered menus are a very accurate reflection of the entire culture of this distro. There is Puppy and many other versions of Puppy. What are they? Where are they? Read the forum and you shall find them... slowly and by accident. There isn't a catalogue. There is a package manager with lots of useful packages, but many other useful packages are not included in the repositories. They are shared here, through direct download from the forum, or they are posted in people's private/personal Web sites. How do you find those? Read the forum and you shall find them... slowly and by accident. There isn't a directory or list or anything. Some of these contributions on people's personal sites are password protected. What is the name/password? Read the forum and you shall stumble upon the answer by sheer luck. It is not documented. This forum is a jungle, and nothing here is properly documented.

To make matters worse, the forum has many flaws. I can "subscribe" to threads that interest me, but then there is no way for me to find them again, those subscribed threads are not listed in my Control Panel. Only threads to which I have actually posted are listed. So am I supposed to post "Hi" on a thread just so I can bookmark it and find it later?

I log in and click "View posts since last visit". The updated threads are there. But, if I close the browser for some reason before I view those threads, I lose that information. The next time I open the browser, "View posts since last visit" is blank even if I never visited the updated threads.

Then I get a mail notification that some thread to which I subscribed has new posts. Fine, I will check that later. Two hours later I get some free time and visit "View posts since last visit". It's empty. Or there are updated threads, but not the one that sent me a notification. I have to search the entire forum by keywords to find it. None of that is necessary. I've been subscribed to many phpBB forums before, they have proper thread bookmarking, smart "View posts since last visit" management and notification features. Why does not any of that work correctly here? And why doesn't the Puppy forum have the "global recently updated threads" feature? It's included with phpBB, and it is VERY useful.

I have been testing Puppy and reading this forum for about a month, and I am still running into stuff that I did not know, and it's not because the amount of information is "wealthy". Really, it isn't. It's just because the information is strewn all about, high and low, hither and tither, a hopeless mess. I am a good nerd and would know ALL there ever is to know about Puppy by now if it were neatly presented in one single place. But it isn't. That should be discouraging for newbies, especially considering that Puppy is built around some quite quirky concepts. There is no other distro like it. And the veterans probably spend a lot of time answering the same old questions over and over...

So yes, clear and comprehensive documentation is terribly needed.

Now, writing it in BASIC English is a bad idea. It's something that has to be learned, almost a whole new language. Don't waste time on that. Just write in *correct* English and let people do whatever it takes for them to read proper English. Or run it past Google Translate if they prefer. Making the information available clearly in one single, easy place is a lot more important.

My 2 and a half cents.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr 2011, 08:59    Post_subject:  

Welcome to Puppy.

Others can give better answers but I feel for trying to give some "easy" answers to some of your many Q.

- What is Snow Puppy?

Created by member of the forum Pemasu from Finland Europe.
AFAIK it is a derivative and not an official Puppy which only Barry Kauler can approve of to ahve that name. Snow is a combination of Lupu and Puppeee and Fluppy and many other such that Pemasu liked and incorporated in Snow to make it behave as he prefer. I use it some 90% of my online time.

- What is Wary?

Wary is offical and made by Barry Kauler but there is also a derivative made by member of the Forum Shinobar who has added features he likes. Quickset and so on.

- What is Quirky?
Quirky is a way for Barry to make a lot of experiments on puppy without having to see it as official Puppy standard. So Quirky is as the name suggest a bit different at times. An experiment learning from ideas and feedback.


- How are these other versions different from "official" Puppy?

I let others answer but generally they are personal takes on official Puppy.

- What are other versions of Puppy?

Personal takes on Puppy.

- Can I backup my save file while it's in use i.e. mounted and running?


AFAIK everybody has warned that it easily corrupt it because you can not know if it is in a save situation. You can do your own experiments by setting the saving to 0 and see if you get reliable savings. Rename them as backup 1 backup 2 and so on and compare very many to see if they are all the exact same.

But the better and more safe approach is to reboot and boot in as pfix=ram and then do the back up.


- So yes, clear and comprehensive documentation is terribly needed.

the answer I have read again and again is something like this.
Yes that would be very welcome. The person that has the motivation and skill to do it is welcome to make such documentation and why not you. You do seem to be motivated there should be such?

Another shorter answer is that most often in Puppy every person do what they are motivated to do. So if there is a lack of Docs then that is due to lack of motivation to make them. Life only has those days we have so people give priority to do what they are motivated to do. Easy Smile

- Puppy is built around some quite quirky concepts. There is no other distro like it. And the veterans probably spend a lot of time answering the same old questions over and over...

That is so true. I have noticed that many who are active in the forum either have a good private database on those topics them them self are interested in and they within minutes find the answer in a thread they maybe have done a bookmark to or just remember how to find.

Sadly I am not that organized so I use the search engine linked to in my signature and others maybe have a very good memory. I envy you being a Nerd. I wish I had that capacity to be structured. You are blessed by nature indeed.

- To make matters worse, the forum has many flaws. I can "subscribe" to threads that interest me, but then there is no way for me to find them again, those subscribed threads are not listed in my Control Panel. Only threads to which I have actually posted are listed. So am I supposed to post "Hi" on a thread just so I can bookmark it and find it later?


Yes that is a very well known lack of feature in the software of the forum. John Murga that owns the Forum has to give priority to his considerations. The forum lives on ads and donations. So if we find wealthy donators or those supporting ads then he could find time to make it better. It comes with the software AFAIK it is not lack of motivation it is well known.

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nooby

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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr 2011, 09:14    Post_subject:  

Now maybe it is okay to remind me and others that the topic is this

Simple English (new Puppy docu project from Iguleder)

I agree that if Iguleder refers to Basic English then this would be to no help at all. Very difficult to learn and be good at writing in and almost incomprehensable to somebody to know ordinary everyday English.

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oui

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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr 2011, 15:43    Post_subject:  

Hi Luluc

Luluc wrote:
and still there are things that I don't know:

- What is Snow Puppy?

- What is Wary?

- What is Quirky?

- How are these other versions different from "official" Puppy?

- What are other versions of Puppy?

- Where are the repositories of PET packages? Besides the ones suggested by petget, where else can I get pets and SFS?

- What file systems can I use in my save file? Can I use ext4?

- Can I backup my save file while it's in use i.e. mounted and running?


all this details (and more) expected perhaps the last question concerning ext4 (I did treat this point also in separate French discussions) and 'snow puppy' (I don't know all puplets, it is to much!) are answered on French in my two very compact forum pages linked here .

BUT there is a problem: in this form, a ONE MANN forum discussion, the only one person who can access and amend it, is me. In the other case (new message from other directly in the discussion) the work is in a few day no compact information any more, because it is not au wiki...

And
- as I use Puppy really to do more with Puppy as to develop or document it Idea I don't will spend more time to discover all things and
- as there is no compact news information (journal) for Puppy and derivatives (simple chronological list: time and day, what, forum link Wink )
a lot of informations I give can be true or not because my own information's stand is not perfect Wink

The most important thing what I miss in Puppy is the journal of all Puppy events in compact form where all person making somewhat significant for Puppy would be invited to announce it in the journal!

Following great Linux page as an example

http://www.linuxmao.org/tikiwiki/tiki-forums.php

is a forum AND wiki all in one!

it is more easy to manage both at the same time!

you can read yourself: tikiwiki -> tiki-forums Rolling Eyes !
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BarryK
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr 2011, 20:31    Post_subject:  

I looked up "Basic English" in the wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_English

There is also "Special English":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_English

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sc0ttman


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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr 2011, 20:42    Post_subject:  

simple english and linux dont mix
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nooby

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr 2011, 03:22    Post_subject:  

One would need example that is a typical puppy text and then same in Basic English and one in Special English and the one in ordinary everyday English that is not codified but supposed to be understood by the average native English language user?????

Computer language are so different from Basic English that is restricted to 1500 or less words.

I am too different to be a good example but my English is based on three years in Elementary School and one year?? in Evening class type of English study for 1,5 years suppoised to be 3 years concentrated to 1,5.
Then I have practice reading Byte and other old Computer Mags and then other Science or Tech mags like Wireless World Popular Electronics. New Scientist and and ScieAm and so on.

and despite me have then some 40 years of exposure of daily reading English I totally fail to read a Daily News text. It has too many native user idioms that one only learn by living as a English daily user of the lang.

Computer related texts are very different in that it has so many unique words that are different from each Linux OS.

Take Console or Terminal or CLI or RXVT or many other names for it.

is it Poor man's install or is it Frugal install we do? Well Knoppix name it Poor Man's install.

So how should Basic English deal with such words like Frugal?

The only way is to keep all of them is it not? How else to get a text?

A lot of people think that translating to easy Swedish would help me get things. that makes it even more difficult because then I have to translate a totally alien to me Swedish word to the version of Linux I use.

there is no Swedish easy word for Frugal install on the HDD.

I mean even if you say Frugal install to a typical Ubuntu user that is active on Ubuntu Forum then they have no idea what one talk about.

And if one say Frugal install in Basic English how could that help?

But sure we have no example what Iguleder really referred to have we. We only have the interpretation that the OP gave on his views? With all due respect.

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L18L

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr 2011, 14:12    Post_subject: Simple English (new Puppy docu project from Iguleder)
Sub_title: simple English
 

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L18L

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr 2011, 14:20    Post_subject:  


Edited_time_total
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nooby

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr 2011, 14:51    Post_subject: Re: Simple English (new Puppy docu project from Iguleder)
Sub_title: simple English
 

Not sure why it does not work I tried to save your text why your text fails so I give it a try again Smile


quote Nooby wrote: I doubt that iguleder was meaning Simple English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_English_disambiguation I don't know.

Quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_English

quote L18L quoted the wiki text :
The intention is to write in a manner that is easily understood by its target audience: appropriate to their reading skills and knowledge, clear and direct, free of cliché and unnecessary jargon.
quote

L18Lwrote:
Quote IMHO that is the manner in which Barry's texts are written.
No need for additional documentation, everything is explained inside the scripts, for example in /usr/sbin/dotpup, PPM and Puppy Universal Installer. quote

Nooby answers:
Yes I am all for plain simple English on all the words that are not precise computer and Linux terms. All the other words can be very plain and simple.

But the terms for what the program do like "format the partition" set the boot flag, and terms on the menu, and so on has to be the one we always use or none would get or know what a newbie talks about if they ask about the goobly gook that is very simple words but only the writer would know what he referred to.

I have that problem when people out of politeness use google translate on a computer text to Swedish as if that would help me get the English words. One would need a step for step description not a easy swedish translation of an abstract text in English. Yes I am a native Swede so that language should be easy for me but I know nothing about computers in swedish. Not a single word.

We have another good example on TCL forum a guy from Italy that made TCL work on a ARM computer. and we tried to get what he said using google translation. Very simple English but one ahve no idea what it refer to in computer English.

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nooby

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr 2011, 15:09    Post_subject:  

Nooby wrote I doubt that iguleder was meaning Simple English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_English_(disambiguation)
Maybe L18L wrote " I don't know." (Sorry I failed to parse the text. )

Quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_English

Quote:

The intention is to write in a manner that is easily understood by its target audience: appropriate to their reading skills and knowledge, clear and direct, free of cliché and unnecessary jargon.


L18L wrote
IMHO that is the manner in which Barry's texts are written.
No need for additional documentation, everything is explained inside the scripts, for example in /usr/sbin/dotpup, PPM and Puppy Universal Installer.

Nooby says I try to make your text visible okay

I trust that Iguleder and L18L and Nooby and many more all of us share the intention to write text that the reader can make use of without having to look up the words or to post on the forum and ask what the words means.

But my experience is that when seasoned puppy user tell me what to do then they are sure of that everybody reading them would get what is supposed to have to be done. What they often fail is to be able to see it from the newbies perspective. I fail doing that too. it is much harder than we can imagine. And to write a step for step walking through what to do is very time consuming and could still fail.

But I trust we all want to be do our best here Smile

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nooby

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr 2011, 15:33    Post_subject:  

I hope this is my last post on the matter.

Simple English means very different things. Here is an example today some minutes ago on simple english for the writer but you need to be used to it if you want to read it fast if you are foreign old user of English.

Karmic.Panda wrote Quote
I have read your posts on this forum on printer drivers before and i referred to your replies on this forum for help, n i feel glad to be receiving reply from a LEGEND that u r !!

Somehow i feel ill hav to find a way to disable hard drives through kernel recompilation only, though i m short of any ideas in that too ! Quote ends


u r is short for You are
n stands for and
i is I
hav is have
ill is I'll
i m is I am

others like him have learned that short cut version of plain simple english when they do SMS texting to each other to not get the thumbs totally messed up.

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L18L

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr 2011, 16:32    Post_subject:  

nooby,
I wonder from where you have the text of my post?
I did not see it, have tried 2 times to upload without success..
But you have got it Very Happy
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