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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
murga-linux.com/puppy/ moderation freedom, and common sense
Moderators: Flash, JohnMurga
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun 2011, 13:49    Post subject:  murga-linux.com/puppy/ moderation freedom, and common sense  

TOPIC: MODERATION, FREEDOM, and COMMON SENSE, within this forum - 12th June 2011

A NEED ARISES

Hi everyone

This thread derives out of discussion in several other threads, notably,

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=68464&start=60

and

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=68393&start=60

...neither of which is specifically about moderation discussion,, but which became derailed with its discussion. I have put it in the 'Miscellaneous' heading

Essentially this discussion is intended to be about suggestions and ideas for better forum behaviour, giving rise to non-insulting posts, as a result of recent 'bad form' posts resulting in bans for some

John Murga has made his views fairly clear -

John M wrote:
The only thing I have ever wanted was common sense, and I hoped for civil discourse.
Common sense being a relative term, which I think has a minimum common denominator.

I know many people that ignore the off topic area, and it is a bit of a pain sometimes, so if you think it shouldn't exist I would recommend you ignore it too.

I appreciate feedback around how I can make this site and it's community work better, as it is important to me and I want it to be a better place.

However, rules around what you can and can't talk about I do object to.

Freedom is another relative term which is important to me.
Unfortunately freedom isn't free it seems Wink


Moderation has fallen, mainly on Flash's shoulders, as PG hasn't been available....so John has made 4 new Mods, though as yet, not all are confirmed/accepted

Some find moderation OK, others, OTT, others, blatantly wrong

Bottom line is - this is a PUBLIC forum, read by people of ALL AGES, NATIONALITIES, RELIGIONS [if any] SEX, [and sexual preferences] and SENSIBILITIES

It is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to please everyone, but, in my humble opinion, this website is generally FAR BETTER than many similar sites...however, I am aware the recent problems have highlighted a bad taste brought upon Puppy's web presence, due to tolerance of criticism being taken to extremes - moderation is NOT an easy task, and this thread is NOT to criticise, but to see if the moderation can be improved, and understanding of the expected 'common sense' increased, and acted upon

My personal view is that moderation is an essential, else bullying becomes rife, and would ruin a shared valuable resource
..... but, that it should also at least try to be consistent, fair, and open

I have suggested placement of 'to be deleted comments' into an invisible part of the forum, as a major criticism of current practice, is that the coherence of threads is lost....if it was editable and could be put back, less the offensive words, this would solve that problem, I believe

Also there have been criticisms of 'favoured members' posts NOT being deleted/censored, i.e. favouritism
Personally, I don't agree with that occurring, and would ask mods to make reasons known, and answer to such criticisms openly

If you are subject to moderation deletion, please start a thread asking for an explanation, if you weren't given one, and also seek comment from other poster/members, as to whether they thought it fair or not.
Hopefully we will all learn, and share our tolerances, and help make the forum better 'managed'
If you should get banned, if it is not obvious why, then I can only suggest creating a new ID and asking, again for a reason, and views of the forum

Again, personally, I think bans could be lifted, if the behaviour causing the ban is agreed to be amended/changed [with an arguably expected, almost guarantee of permanent ban if it is repeated]

Asking for reasons is an attempt to demonstrate openness, and consistency....but, at least, cool down before asking!

Rules: Can we have freedom and rules?

As John said, 'freedom is a relative term'

I think the purpose of this discussion is about making this forum, and any need to moderate it, work relatively well, relatively freely, and relatively cringe-free

If you feel inclined to use expletives, even in jest...is it too 'controlling/censoring' to suggest using ** in place of mid vowels, in any chosen words.....the meaning will still be clear

If you disagree with someone's views, just say, if you have to comment, 'I disagree with....xxxx ....because....etc',
.....rather than resort to name calling or insult, which really isn't what is wanted or necessary
This can be a mature discussion, and you may just become more mature if TOLERANCE becomes your way of seeing others

I hope these suggestions will be seen as fuel for the 'common sense' which John refers to, and future discussion of it, with a view to mutual self-benefit

PS Can any new Mods please let everyone know who they are?

Many thanks

Aitch Smile
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artifus


Joined: 06 Jul 2010
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun 2011, 15:31    Post subject:  

Quote:
Bottom line is - this is a PUBLIC forum, read by people of ALL AGES, NATIONALITIES, RELIGIONS [if any] SEX, [and sexual preferences] and SENSIBILITIES


many online forums have a members only section where off topic sub forums are only visible to registered and logged in members. would this be an option worth considering?

*edit* as the new spam reports section operates, i've just noticed.

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Last edited by artifus on Mon 13 Jun 2011, 09:12; edited 1 time in total
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ggg

Joined: 26 Apr 2011
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun 2011, 15:49    Post subject:  

Is it desirable (and implementable) that new members could only be admitted if they click a button agreeing to a few brief outlines on advertising, abuse by swearing or insulting behaviour and avoidance of illegal acts?

The consequences might be deletion or editing of posts.

Added:

Should avatars be in good taste and of a maximum size.

Should member names be limited to a maximum number characters.

Should URL links to infected or undesirable sites be allowed.

And possibly some dos:

Such as providing information when seeking help.

Last edited by ggg on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 17:41; edited 1 time in total
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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun 2011, 16:43    Post subject:  

Rules do not mean a lack of freedom in what one says. Rather it defines behavior.
In my eyes, it is simple:
1. Define unacceptable behavior.
-Is cursing allowed?
-Is hate talk allowed?
-Is advertising spam allowed?
-Is creating multiple accounts to spam a thread allowed?
-Is it acceptable to edit one's own posts and remove the content?
Free speech: there has to be a baseline from which we start, don't you agree?

2. Define consequences for unacceptable behavior.
-Might your posts or threads get deleted? (With explanation)
-Might your posts or threads get edited? (With explanation)
-Might you be removed from these forums?

3. Moderators and Administrators Code of Conduct
-If a thread gets locked, a post at the end explaining why and by whom.
-If posts or threads are deleted, an explanation of why and by whom. One would think it should happen so rarely (with all this common sense we have) it would not be an undue burden for the moderator or administrator to explain it to the offending party. Maybe a pinned thread for this purpose where the mod or admin posts?

As it stands now, we do have forum moderation, obviously. It's just a bit muddy for most. We have an unspoken set of rules, again muddy for most. People are confused why some things are removed (which leads me to believe we already don't have "free speech") and others let stand. People have different ideas about common sense, free speech, and even "off topic". How can it possibly not help to clarify this?

I don't think people are so much concerned about where the lines in the sand are drawn, but that they are drawn clearly and apply equally to everyone.
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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 3453
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun 2011, 19:20    Post subject:  

Nothing against you Aitch.

The trouble lately is that so many Mouthies here
urging for more Control moments in this forum,
would be better off helping others occasionally.

But hey! that's just too hard isn't it.

They benefited from all the advice offered here, got themselves up
and running, and now the Loonies want to run the asylum.

Whinging ...whining ...wankers.

If they can't give any advice...at least point to some posts,
which can help newbies.

Respect doesn't mean submission.
That nobody can post...cos that hurteth moi.
Why do we have such a shiity world these days.
Intolerance, ignorance, dominance, petulance....no leeway.

Sure I share all those traits above...but I'm a special case.
Or should be put into a special case...whatever.

And I don't have good humour either, to get me by.

Maybe instead of a Panic Room we should head to the laughter
room and take a good look in the mirror.
Sure mine has got a lot of tape on it, but otherwise my
reflection is fine.

We exist here for many reasons.

We may like the company, tech support, the freedom, or even
the outrageous or weirdo commentry.

Or perversely stay because we dislike members so much that
we have to stick around slavishly to be more shocked...
saddened...alarmed...misinformed.
Yeah! baby.

Puppy got it's creds from Barry first, and then this forum.
It delivers the goods...most times.
If it doesn't do the bells and whistles for you please PM me
and I will send you the link again to Professor William Connolly's
support service via Youtube.

///////

JohnMurga

"The reason why the truly off-topic area was set up was because
people wanted a place to discuss things that had nothing to do with Puppy/Linux/Technology with the friends or enemies they had made
in the other areas "

" I know many people that ignore the off topic area, and it is a bit of a pain sometimes, so if you think it shouldn't exist I would recommend
you ignore it too.
"

7 posts and here we go....
" Seriously, sometimes that poster goes out of his/her way to be helpful, but at other times dispenses gratuitous insults. "

Yet so much wisdom from bugman.
" peace and harmony results when everyone is afraid "

Caneri
" This forum works just fine.....
albeit, without the people that every once in awhile disrupt the flow...
it's not the forum, but the people that make the forum...Get it?

//////

Nothing wrong with having your say.

But if you don't like it here....plenty of other parties to visit.

And come on mate.
If I dug into some posts here, I am sure that I could find some
discussions that you were involved in that were...ahem patchy.

Chris.
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11131
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun 2011, 21:27    Post subject:  

I post this as a peer and not wearing an administrator's hat.

You, me, all of us agreed that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit.

~

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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11131
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun 2011, 21:40    Post subject:  

ggg wrote:
Is it desirable (and implementable) that new members could only be admitted if they click a button agreeing to a few brief outlines on advertising, abuse by swearing or insulting behaviour and avoidance of illegal acts?


I thought members had to agree along the lines you suggest as part of the sign up process. To test you can log out, then click register.

~

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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun 2011, 21:42    Post subject:  

So nothing should ever change, just because it is already?

A community is fluid. Needs change, people change, expectations change, ideas change...the community grows.
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun 2011, 21:46    Post subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
Rules do not mean a lack of freedom in what one says. Rather it defines behavior.
In my eyes, it is simple:


Simples eh? Wink
http://youtu.be/uSIKy3-mnLk

Quote:
1. Define unacceptable behavior.

I find practically all behaviour acceptable, accept my own . . .

Quote:
-Is cursing allowed?

Only if fu%$ing necessary.
Personally I would not allow it but for many people it is
their mode of acceptable expression . . .
If having the choice, I would only allow it in the format shown.
I believe a forum like this should be safe for work and children under the age of 42

Quote:
-Is hate talk allowed?

Some hate to talk, are they allowed to lurk?

Quote:
-Is advertising spam allowed?

No! [This opinion, sponsored by Lobster Fisheries inc.]

Quote:
-Is creating multiple accounts to spam a thread allowed?

No! [see imaginary sock puppets for many instances of this opinion] Wink

Quote:
-Is it acceptable to edit one's own posts and remove the content?

I often edit my posts. Usually bad spelling/grammar or adding URL links.
Often even after the edits I am still posting gibberish. Wink
Very occasionally (can not even remember if I have done this) may have been our previous forum, I have deleted my own post [thought better of my ranting]. You are I believe thinking of one rare event where one person deleted a thread they started and many had invested time and energy
in posting to that thread. My inclination is to allow users freedom to do this.
However it was not a nice thing to do and I believe Flash created another post for people to comment. Cool

Quote:
Free speech: there has to be a baseline from which we start, don't you agree?

I believe in Free listening.
Should children and the mentally fragile like myself, be free to listen
to conversations without being assaulted by others 'freedom'
to abuse, swear, cause mischief and FUD?

Quote:
2. Define consequences for unacceptable behaviour.
-Might your posts or threads get deleted? (With explanation)

Spam no explanation. Would be too many.
Other posts in the rare circumstances of deletion could be offered a link to the off topic area with an explanation. IF the moderators/admins have the inclination. Perhaps with a warning. Unacceptable behaviour has been a rarity on the forum. I should imagine moderators do have the inclination.

Quote:
-Might your posts or threads get edited? (With explanation)

As a past moderator I have edited posts. Usually when I considered a post important and a URL needs turning into a link.
Or the post is important and I could not comprehend the meaning and it was just a simple spelling mistake or word omission
Flash has on occasion edited a poster heading (including mine)
were he feels a more intelligible or on topic heading is required.
I find personally this is done rarely and totally justified and helpful.

Quote:
-Might you be removed from these forums?

I have never been an admin and do not have this power.
John has only done this on rare occasions - total ban.
Usually it is a temp ban.
I believe now we have two new admins with this power also
Flash and Bruce?

Quote:
3. Moderators and Administrators Code of Conduct
-If a thread gets locked, a post at the end explaining why and by whom.

I have never had the power to do this. Or if I did have it never used it.
For the sake of 'free listening' it is something that John Murga has done in the past. Usually because the post has just become a trading of insults and the original content (often important) is still valid and he has been emailed with complaints.

Quote:
-If posts or threads are deleted, an explanation of why and by whom. One would think it should happen so rarely (with all this common sense we have) it would not be an undue burden for the moderator or administrator to explain it to the offending party. Maybe a pinned thread for this purpose where the mod or admin posts?

In ye olde days (before Halloween 2010) I was a moderator on many forum threads and made the mistake of deleting a notorious trolls post as a treat, without notification. The troll was outraged at this Halloween gift. What an innocent he was! His only effect but probably not intent, was causing ire, offence and FUD.
Most of my moderator privileges were revoked DNFTT. I could no longer move spam (the bulk of what I did daily as moderator)
So I did not have to do that any more [I knew trolls had their use] Smile

If you are made a moderator maybe it could be part of your
very small burden . . . ? Cool
This I believe make one aware of how much work Flash does . . .

Quote:
As it stands now, we do have forum moderation, obviously. It's just a bit muddy for most. We have an unspoken set of rules, again muddy for most. People are confused why some things are removed (which leads me to believe we already don't have "free speech") and others let stand.

I would recommend you as a moderator. You could offer to help Flash and Bruce and John Murga along with the other the new moderators.
This 'post deleting charge' is a constant FUD as I am unaware of what is happening.
If a moderator is deleting spam or with obviously disruptive behaviour (such as posting to every conversation with a few offensive words)
on rare occasions you might inadvertently delete a genuine poster [This happened recently with a new poster and the poster took exception and carpet bombed the forum]
The other more usual occurrence (has happened to me many times) is you make a long post. You post it. Come back. Where is it? You have been censored!
Or have you? Sometimes a post appears whilst you are editing and if you press send, your post is not accepted automatically. You are given the chance to read the new post and must press send again.
So it SEEMS like your erudite words are too controversial or have been removed on a whim . . . So you are now free to carp on ad infinitum (and . . . amazingly none of the whining is censored . . .] So back to FUD and trolling?

Quote:
People have different ideas about common sense, free speech, and even "off topic". How can it possibly not help to clarify this?

Flash and John do the best they have the time and inclination to do.
As did I when more fully engaged. We need more moderators. Put yourself forward and create some clarity if you are accepted . . .
I would recommend you.

Quote:
A new reply has been posted or the last post has been deleted while you were replying. Check the "Topic review" at bottom of this page, and resubmit your post if appropriate.

there we go Bruce B posted whilst I was creating this post. It might have been lost . . .

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alienjeff


Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 2291
Location: Winsted, CT - USA

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun 2011, 21:58    Post subject:  

All, or most of you, know what toast is, right? You take a couple slices of bread, stick 'em in the toaster, and push the lever down. After x-amount of time, the toasted bread is ejected from the toaster, you smother the toast with butter and maybe some jam. Easy as that.

Well you're all "complicating toast".

I recently did some surfing on the discovery.com website. At one point I noted in the footer of a page, "By visiting this site, you agree to the terms and conditions of our Visitor Agreement." So being a bit curious, I clicked the link and was presented with discovery.com's complication of toast.

If you're curious, too, here's the insanity:

http://tlc.discovery.com/utilities/about/visitoragreement.html

In comparison, here's what registered users on this form agree to:

Quote:

While the administrators and moderators of this forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message. Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed). The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit. As a user you agree to any information you have entered above being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent the webmaster, administrator and moderators cannot be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.

This forum system uses cookies to store information on your local computer. These cookies do not contain any of the information you have entered above; they serve only to improve your viewing pleasure. The e-mail address is used only for confirming your registration details and password (and for sending new passwords should you forget your current one).

By clicking Register below you agree to be bound by these conditions.


Slight difference, eh?

Still want to complicate toast whilst beating a dead horse?

_________________
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diversion: http://alienjeff.net - visit The Fringe
quote: "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker

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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11131
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun 2011, 23:15    Post subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
So nothing should ever change, just because it is already?

Did somebody say that?

shariebeth wrote:
A community is fluid. Needs change, people change, expectations change, ideas change...the community grows.


The website is software - the software is designed to facilitate change within its design limits.

I expect phpBB to remain as the software.

The "The Puppy Linux Discussion Forum" and several forums. I don't expect the existing Forums to be deleted.

What I expect to change are topics and posts. The website changes daily in this this area. The change is content.

The website doesn't know what someone will post next and has little control of the content in future posts.

Sharie for the most part a moderator's tools are edit controls.

The aforementioned brings me to this question: Is there something you think needs editing?

Bruce

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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 3453
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun 2011, 02:42    Post subject:  

" moderation freedom, and common sense"

This is the topic right?

Come on Crusty Lobster...surely ye maketh a jest.

" I would recommend you as a moderator. "

Sherry Best.

Sherry...that's a whine isn't it?

My shocking spelling today.
Blood pressure's a terrible thing.
Lucky I don't have it.

Might get the Florida sickness yet.
Mmmm....what's this?

" I have enjoyed #puppylinux, and it's relaxed environment.

Most help channels are stuffy and one is generally afraid to ask something or get excited if something works.

No matter what you think of alienjeff's flaws, nobody can match his time commitment or knowledge base in that channel.

No matter what he was doing or saying, he always stopped and answered every question he saw, from the simplest and "dumbest" to the most complex and time consuming answers.
(Rupp you are great too).

It is a bit sad, I don't know any of these people other than my month or so here, yet the channel seems empty and lacking now since yesterday morning. It is a shame that some personal conflicts are making their way to the public channel.

And let's do it here as well eh!
A candle is no good when you douse the flame.

Chris.
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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun 2011, 06:02    Post subject:  

cthisbear wrote:
A candle is no good when you douse the flame.


depends what you're using it for

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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1735
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun 2011, 07:12    Post subject:  

[quote="alienjeff"]

In comparison, here's what registered users on this form agree to:

Quote:


You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws.


abusive, hateful, slanderous? It would appear that some of the posters in the Off Topic area may have overlooked those words.

Perhaps the prohibition doesn't apply to Windows, Microsoft, Windows users, Repubicans, Democrats, United States, Europe and other topics near and dear to some favored users.

Applicable laws:

What laws govern this forum? The country were the computer hosting this forum is located? The country where the poster is located? The country where the reader is located?
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3517
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun 2011, 07:13    Post subject:  

1. "Only if fu%$ing necessary."
BRILLIANT! Very Happy
Gave me my 1st laugh of the day.
Mind you, Lobster knows how to do it right.
"It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it."
Wouldn't want to see cursing and blinding become the norm.

Hope I may be allowed to deviate a little:
2. "Some hate to talk"
...And some never stop to take breath.
I'm thinking of a young mother with baby in a push-chair who go onto a bus in which I just now came home from Edinburgh.
(a) First she took off her jacket, and "Oh my GOD!".
I didn't know if she was trying to get into her clothes or out of them.
Her floppy trousers were almost down at her pubic mound.
HUGE floppy belly hanging out and down.
OUCH!
Bum-crack showing at the rear.
And only 1 foot away from my face as she bent over and away from me!
OUCH!

(b) She called another woman she knew on the bus, and the woman came down, and sat across from her.
Young mother proceeded to talk incessantly [and so loud as to be difficult to ignore] for the remaining 15 min of the ride.
I didn't ever see her draw breath, although she must have.
It began to become surreal.
I was fascinated, horrified...
Would she EVER STOP?
She didn't.
The woman doing the listening nodded, and nodded, and nodded, and nodded, and tried to fit in a hmmm yes, and nodded, and nodded.
I sat with eyes closed for the remainder of the journey.
Didn't have any earplugs handy.
Someone here mentioned "Conversational Narcissism".

3. "Should children and the mentally fragile like myself, be free to listen
to conversations without being assaulted by others 'freedom'...?
"
See 2 above as an example out there in the bid-wide-world.
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