PLUG

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raffy
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thoughts

#21 Post by raffy »

There are some thoughts here that are worth quoting:
Bert wrote:A forum where like-minded people exchange ideas is like a natural phenomenon. Ideas are proposed and if they contain value for the participants, these ideas start developing naturally, out of the enthusiasm of the members. This great forum has always worked like that.

The problem starts when someone proposes to organize it all.
Stripe wrote:with the dynamic of the overall forum, with devs/users producing their own puplets/pets based on official puppys and the developers of the official puppys then using them in a later official version how would the plug interact with this?
shariebeth wrote:Puppy Linux Users Group (PLUG)
Mission Statement:
Our goal is to serve as a portal for communication between Puppy Linux Users and Puppy Linux Developers. We shall endeavor to promote positive relations and mutual respect. We will represent Puppy Linux and its community to the best of our ability.
1. We will filter both suggestions and issues and streamline them into a comprehensive presentation for the developers.
2. We will relay and explain developer concerns and issues and update the users as needed.
3. We will attempt to consolidate information and documentation into one easily accessable resource.
4. We will provide support and structure for a Puppy Linux "Help Desk".
I collected these so readers can see the ideas together. Now let me add my 0.002c:

a. 1-2 above are essentially ways to keep up with the development of Puppy Linux. (This is not easy. Note also that 3 and 4 are only derived from 1 and 2.)
b. (a) can be done using more resources and control (the resource stream will only come in with more control, for example, a formal structure).
c. With more control, people leave (devs, especially).
d. With devs leaving, there will be no need for (a).

Lastly, there is such a thing as "top ten syndrome" in Puppy Linux development: people get excited whenever Puppy Linux goes up past #10 in Distrowatch.

EDIT: I composed this post before Béèm posted above, so it might be redundant in some parts.
Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? [url=http://puppylinux.info/topic/freeoffice-2012-sfs]Get the sfs (English only)[/url].

Stripe
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#22 Post by Stripe »

raffy

as I see it, there will be no control involved at all just an organizing/listing/database of resources in one place to make life easier for all puppy users.

hope this helps
stripe

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Aitch
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A plea for pleasant changes and exchanges

#23 Post by Aitch »

Stripe

I think you have the essence of it

I have asked for a database many times, currently pretty much most people rely on the well-minded search, but how many use, or have read the search thread I started, which is brim full of ideas/links?, ....however I concur with Béèm, trying to find solutions to problems people are having takes ages to find sometimes, as they were often posted in an unrelated thread, or in a throwaway type comment....I, too, struggle finding things I know I've seen answers to... a database would be wonderful, in the meantime, threadget is being advised
I am going to talk with John M about the database idea, [and a few other things], as it would need to hook into his server mysql, I believe, and can you imagine how [relatively] easy an alphabetic look-up chart would be?

A forum is its users, hence to me, PLUG seemed a good idea

I have come to the conclusion there are 2 main types of people who use the forum, social, and antisocial, though most people have both qualities.
I may be wrong, but I believe the forum works better when people use their social skills, than their antisocial ones, and it is, on occasions hard not to let the fiery dragon who cares not, loose, but ask yourself, which do you prefer to be on the receiving end of?

I have seen wisdom from nooby, outshining some people who seem more capable to him, when he said,
We love Puppy Linux so much that all of us want only the best for Puppy and we do our best to protect Puppy from things we find can be of great or minor harm.
Who wants to argue with that?
Often disagreements boil up out of defence of an aspect of puppy or the forum.....but remember, there are many lovely views of a mountain, but if you climb from the east and meet someone who climbed from the west, you will never agree which mountain you are on, unless you retread the steps of the other, which is neither easy, nor always possible [if ever you've done any climbing, you'll know what I mean]...so just a little slack, as nooby says, is required, in other words, be a bit more tolerant....

Is that dictatorial, as some say....I don't believe so, but....YMMV

One of the big difficulties with any venture like this, is finding natural categories, under which to address topics....and who would argue that the forum, is haphazard, at best, difficult, at worst, to find your way around....yet how many words have been written trying to make things clearer?

We can but try, is my view, as if not, then stagnation rules

"If things don't change, they'll stay as they are", should not be our motto

Aitch :)

Trobin
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#24 Post by Trobin »

Does everyone here know what all of the available puplets are? Do you all know what they all do and why one would be better for a particular user than another? Could you find them all?
A data base of all the puplets, their features and uses, might be a great idea, but I think the gate may be locked long after the horse has charged over the horizon.

Puppy 1.x.x Puppy 2.x.x Puppy 3.x.x Puppy 4.xx Puppy Wary
Puppy Lucid Puppy Drake Slickpup TXZ-pup 4.5 Polarpup
Midnightsun pup Puppy rescue os Lighthouse pup Slimpup
Macpup Pupngo Muppy Webserver puppy Cloud puppy
Angrypup Edupup Teenpup Legacy OS Rexbang
Puppeee Fluppy Pulp Nop puppy Solid pup Skinnypup
Lucidlite Snowpuppy Browser Linux Barebones lucid
Puppy Arcade Ice puppy Puppy studio Turbopup Quirky nop
Kdpup Cpup pup bang Green Pup Diabolug Wolfe

There are 44 pages in the Puppy Derivatives section. I’m sure the above just scratches the surface.

That would be quite the task, building a data base of all the puppies - puplets out there. Listing all their features, suggesting which is right for each task/hardware/configuration/need/desire.

The question is, does anyone have the time / interest / and desire to take on such a task?
[url]http://speakpup.blogspot.com[/url]

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WhoDo
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#25 Post by WhoDo »

With all due respect to previous posters, the PLUG is about giving users a voice.

Sure, they now have the forum and the myriad of threads, sub-forums, etc. The problem is that even Barry doesn't have the time or the energy to search through all of that for useful ideas and still find time to code, and he's retired. Many of our devs are hobbyists with full time jobs! The PLUG is designed to sort through all of that information and put the best ideas forward in one place where developers can either pick them up and run with them or ignore them. It's just that simple.

When I was coordinating the 2.15CE project, ages ago it seems, the forum was much less populous than it is now. Puppy's popularity is choking its lines of communication between users and devs. The PLUG is one idea to deal with that by pre-sorting, quantifying and qualifying ideas so that the best and most achievable find their way to the devs. Nothing more; nothing less.

Sure there are lots of other things a PLUG could and probably should do. I wouldn't try eating the whole elephant in one sitting, though! At the moment, users post their own ideas in new threads, different forums and sub-forums, etc. The point of the PLUG is to have a single place where those ideas are welcomed, discussed reasonably and the best made available to the devs by whatever means. No more trolling through endless posts (pun intended) to find the one good idea that a dev can implement as he or she pleases. How could that impact negatively on the fun of the volunteer devs?

If we can achieve that one single objective - creating a place for users to have their ideas heard, qualified and discussed - then the other opportunities will come in the natural course of things. This is NOT about organizing Puppy - heck, I've been a pretty vociferous OPPONENT of that for a long time; just ask ecomoney! It IS about organizing users ideas, wishes, experiences and feedback in a positive way for the benefit of all who love Puppy, whether they be users, devs or a hybrid of the two like my old mate 01micko.

Are we there yet, mum? :roll:

PS. If ttuuxxx has the time and the energy, I'm sure he can manage to moderate the PLUG. The point is that it should be possible for him to have assistance with this sub-forum only, to ensure topics don't quickly degenerate into more noise. That would truly defeat the purpose of the PLUG IMHO.
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Stripe
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#26 Post by Stripe »

WhoDo with you being a coordinator can i pick your brains?

do you have any ideas on the structure it would take so that it would be more useful/different from the suggestions section? and do you have any ideas on how the ideas would be slimmed down without reflecting anybodys personal preferences?

cheers
stripe

nooby
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#27 Post by nooby »

As I get it John Murga the owner of the forum has appointed ttuuxxx to be the Moderator.

So has he accepted that then? Then it is already set.

So we don't need any other Mods and if ttuuxxx has to take a break can not Beem or Flash jump in to help out if the noise ratio get unbearable.

I am not good at keeping down my own noise but friendly reminders from forum members should help too.

Is it not most practical then to let ttuuxxx be the single voice? I mean he has a long experience of suggesting things and even to Dev such things himself. Him wanting apps to be as tight and effective as possible and him not liking bloat. He knows such things as I get it.

So I see him as apt for that purpose.

What I am skeptical about is how to give priority to all the individual voices we have.

Just a short example.

seaside made several variations of a SFS loader. The way he set up that app was more practical to him than all the other versions that exist.

I did find it to be most practical to me too. I use it now for loading this FireFox I write from within :)

But his app is an "as is" thing. You get the feature with the constraint built in. It does not warn or protect from loading too many SFS and so on. It does not make Menu and so on.

So I would not see it as an app to add to the official Puppy but if other Devs help him or "borrow" the idea and work on it. As I get it the way he has done it is way easier than all the others and faster too.


so how would the PLUG react to me supporting that we have to refer to what seaside has done and get the attention of Devs that can look into his code and see where them can make it more protected without loosing too much of the fast operation and the ease one grasp how to use it?

Example two.

Beem and many many others have the knowledge how to place big apps on the HDD outside of the pupsave and that way them can have a very small pupsave.

Such knowledge could be a good thing to build into puppy as a choice that have help programs to achieve this.

I mean how would PLUG handle such a proposal from me?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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8-bit
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#28 Post by 8-bit »

My two cents is maybe do a spreadsheet of puppy derivatives with features of each as a calc file that could be downloaded and viewed with calc.
It would contain the derivative name and included applications.
Of course it would have to be updated as new derivatives were released.
The only thing is that can one overwrite an attachment with an updated one in a post.
This would be like to the layout found on Distrowatch.

Sylvander
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#29 Post by Sylvander »

WhoDo wrote:even Barry doesn't have the time or the energy to search through all of that for useful ideas
For years now I've been [every day?] reading all of the new threads and posts, and when I see something of particular interest I post it in my Puppy_Linux thread at the PC-Guide forums.

Unfortunately, sometimes people ask for help in that thread too. :(
That adds "noise" to the resource.

Here is the present last page of that Puppy_Linux thread.
You might find it interesting to quickly read back through the various posts, from last to first.

FYI: That thread has presently had 46,302 views.

nooby
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#30 Post by nooby »

Sylvander that is a very good thing you have done there and to me that works better than the more formal structured way that the PLUG enthusiasts seems to propose.

Sure some structure can be of great help but then one need to have a sense for how to implement that without disturbing the free flow of exchanges.

I am not good at expressing this but some kind of opt in instead of forcing us to opt out?

Maybe not the best metaphor but it is a known one. The road to Linux Hell is paved by Good Intended Formal Structure
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

tlchost
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#31 Post by tlchost »

nooby wrote:Sylvander that is a very good thing you have done there and to me that works better than the more formal structured way that the PLUG enthusiasts seems to propose.
How can you say one thing works better than another thing that is proposed?
The road to Linux Hell is paved by Good Intended Formal Structure
And the authoratative source for that universal wisdom is located where?

nooby
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#32 Post by nooby »

nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008 2011 - 2008 = I am not good at math. is that 4 or three years.

So tlchost my answer is that three or four years of daily accumulated personal experiences of this and many other forums tells me that as soon as somebody try to force structure on this forum then all Linux Hell break lose and it takes months for everybody to lick the wounds and to get back into the free flow of exchange again.

But sure I am just one voice and one perspective but if you read through this thread you see many others having same experience.

That does not mean that total anarchy always give better result but it does allow individuals to freely take contact and them in their exchanges with each other can informally or formally set up structure that works for them.

Lucid Puppy came that way if I get it at all. I don't remember them ever asking for total control of a sub section and it worked well for them despite all the noise from nooby.

When pemasu found my noise to get in his way in his threads then he just told me so and I managed to stay away from his thread for a whole month so one don't need total control at all. A bit friendly straight talk can do wonder.

Another friendly person told me in PM that I need to shape up and I have done my best to live up to that. I relapse now and then but a friendly reminder and I behave better. So humor and a smile can do it better than formal hunting down and kicking the ass of the bad guy is my experience. sorry poor grammar there
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

tlchost
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#33 Post by tlchost »

nooby wrote: So tlchost my answer is that three or four years of daily accumulated personal experiences of this and many other forums tells me that as soon as somebody try to force structure on this forum then all Linux Hell break lose and it takes months for everybody to lick the wounds and to get back into the free flow of exchange again.
I guess I will have to bow to your experience and ignore my own in all manner of forums where structure is beneficial. I simply did not realize that Puppy is so different.
Lucid Puppy came that way if I get it at all. I don't remember them ever asking for total control of a sub section and it worked well for them despite all the noice from nooby.
The reason for asking that the PLUG folks control their own area was to insure that moderation would be fair and promote the exchange of information. It was novel concept, and one that was nothing like the current moderation in this forum, where we have seen the removal of moderator stautus for cause, editing of users posts, deletion of posts and locking of topics.

Since you seem to have real issues with control, would it be safe to say that you approve of the dictatorial tactics mentioined above? I would be very interested to see your explantion of how draconian moderation benefits the community and why it is so much better than what was proposed for the PLUG.

Thom

shariebeth
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#34 Post by shariebeth »

nooby wrote:I am not good at expressing this but some kind of opt in instead of forcing us to opt out?
This was covered already in at least 4 different people's posts just in this thread.
nooby wrote:As I get it John Murga the owner of the forum has appointed ttuuxxx to be the Moderator.

So has he accepted that then? Then it is already set.

So we don't need any other Mods and if ttuuxxx has to take a break can not Beem or Flash jump in to help out if the noise ratio get unbearable.
I got the impression that was to cover things temporarily until JohnMurga has time to deal with this. (He's posted already saying he's in the middle of moving and he's contacted me privately as well to apologize for the delay).

If I read what JM said correctly, he agrees this current situation is not working and he will be back when he can to devote some time to it because he agrees that this is a beneficial concept.

Also nooby, it also has been covered that Flash is too busy and doesn't want to have part in this, ttuuxxx is too busy and is hardly ever around (might want to read his most recent posts to see why and why that isn't likely to change any time soon), Béèm is more than welcome to participate if he's interested in any capacity, and the rest are missing in action.

This section will need very active "monitoring" too keep it clean, noise free and organized for easy and fast access for both developers and users. And that absolutely requires more activity than ttuuxxx can currently provide.

Nooby, as to your proposals, you are misunderstanding something: Our goal is not to demand anything of the developers. We will never say "You HAVE to include this or you have to look at that." We organize requests and ideas and "solutions" and present them in a way that they can take note of it if they choose and consider it or not as they choose, along with any pertinent information about it.

@8-bit: I like your puplet spreadsheet idea.

Stripe
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#35 Post by Stripe »

@nooby
thanks for the input, all ideas/solutions are welcome as you could come up with something that everybody has missed.

cheers
stripe

tlchost
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#36 Post by tlchost »

8-bit wrote:My two cents is maybe do a spreadsheet of puppy derivatives with features of each as a calc file that could be downloaded and viewed with calc.
I had tried a similar approach with an online database. But...who enters and maintains the information? My concept was that the dev(of a puplet, pet or sfs) would enter and maintain the information.

Some folks used it.....hardly and of the devs listed their works, so the project came to a screeching halt. Perhaps it was too much to ask the Devs to enter information and maintain it?

Here is a link to the database....the structure and number of fields could be modified if there is a perceived need for the database.

http://puppylinux.us/cgi-bin/dbman/db.cgi

Thom

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WhoDo
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#37 Post by WhoDo »

Stripe wrote:WhoDo with you being a coordinator can i pick your brains?

do you have any ideas on the structure it would take so that it would be more useful/different from the suggestions section? and do you have any ideas on how the ideas would be slimmed down without reflecting anybodys personal preferences?
Sure. I think the PLUG needs to come up with some workable categories of requests; base system changes, usability, look-and-feel, whatever ...

The job of the PLUG is to take all of those user ideas and requests and find an appropriate category for them. Within each category it should be possible to deal with specific ideas or groups of ideas. For example, under "usability" you might want to look at things like printer support, graphics drivers, network drivers, etc. and have a single thread for each. People whose printer, graphics or network adapter don't work can add their requests there and the PLUG advise if there is already a known solution. Otherwise it joins a ToDo list of things the devs might consider need fixing.

That's just a very broad thumbnail sketch of what the PLUG might come up with. I don't want anyone to think that this is necessarily either the best or the only way to do it. The important thing is to get ideas and requests organised into areas that devs with specific interests can go through without having to read every forum post that even remotely looks interesting to them.
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WhoDo
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#38 Post by WhoDo »

tlchost wrote:Some folks used it.....hardly and of the devs listed their works, so the project came to a screeching halt. Perhaps it was too much to ask the Devs to enter information and maintain it?

Here is a link to the database....the structure and number of fields could be modified if there is a perceived need for the database.
That looks great, Thom. Perhaps it can be turned to the PLUG's purpose of organising ideas and requests. The devs wouldn't need to enter anything. The PLUG organisers, or even identified PLUG members, would do that. It could even become the defacto Help system shariebeth was talking about, with ordinary users searching it as "guest" for existing solutions.

I see two valuable uses for this excellent tool:

1. PLUG organisers use it to quantify requests for specific features, support or fixes.

2. PLUG users search it to see if there is already a solution to their problem.

Good one! 8)
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tlchost
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#39 Post by tlchost »

WhoDo wrote:
I see two valuable uses for this excellent tool:

1. PLUG organisers use it to quantify requests for specific features, support or fixes.

2. PLUG users search it to see if there is already a solution to their problem.

Good one! 8)
Thanks.....

I'll be happy to modify it to take care of PLUG needs. It's a very simple database....but we need to arrive at a structure that will do the job. Everytime I roll one of these out...I realize after the fact that I should of added some fields, described things differently, etc.

I can't access the structure now...but later on I will post it here, and ask for input. From experience, it's better to spend time upfront with the design, rather than doing the "Opps, now to I preserve what I have and re-arrange the fields, add some, etc.

Hope that the end result will be the PLUG database, not Thom's database about the plug.

Thom

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Aitch
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#40 Post by Aitch »

Aitch wrote:mmm
nooby wrote:But I wonder what good use can PLUG be if it is run by the most ultra sensitive forum members who even want total control over that subforum of the main forum???
my reply
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69618

Discuss sensitivity vis-a-vis total control, and compare to self-defence

Aitch :)
Hopefully, since John M's support for the Plug concept we can move on

For a bit of motivation insight

http://youtu.be/u6XAPnuFjJc


WhoDo, I sent you a PM but you haven't responded....

Re: the database idea, it returns....[come back PG, we miss you :wink: ] :D

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 617#303617

I am in process of requesting a link/access to the forum database from John M for hardware/software problems/solutions search capability, as well as other PLUG related stuff, as I have an option for serverspace, which I hope can also serve as a Puppy mirror

see http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69646

So, maybe we could/would have 2 separate databases, 1 for the user/dev interface, the other for hardware/software problems/solutions, and reviews/comparisons posted in the forum [and possibly elsewhere, if googlesearch or another webcrawler can be incorporated, without causing slowdowns/loadburdens]

Big thanks to John M for support for the PLUG concept, we eagerly await further comment, input, and cooperation :D :D
[email in draught]

Aitch :)

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