ARM... Again... Any chance for Puppy on the 25 USD PC?

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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Atle
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ARM... Again... Any chance for Puppy on the 25 USD PC?

#1 Post by Atle »

Yes.. there are plenty of threads on ARM, and if I am not wrong, its possible to develop support for the ARM processor, but one of the problems are that they are not unified.

But if one takes a look at the soon to come "Tiny Mini" RasberryPi; it seems like they might have at least a cool piece of hardware and only one kind of a ARM processor to support.

I am not technical my self at this level, but it seems like a future kind of a gadget, that could be very useful. No comments really needed here, as I am not able to develop this my self, and as a humble person, I can only hope :lol:



Imagehttp://www.raspberrypi.org/

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#2 Post by darkcity »

they talk of Ubuntu and Fedora support. as Puppy is fairly repository independent you think it may be possible. is there an Arm version of Slack?

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#3 Post by Atle »

darkcity wrote: is there an Arm version of Slack?
Can this be it? http://www.armedslack.org/

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#4 Post by darkcity »

to answer my own question, here is an Arm version of Slack-
http://www.armedslack.org/doku.php?id=introduction

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#5 Post by Dougal »

I replied to someone about this before (maybe in the PPC thread): the main problem (except for the difference in HW-detection etc.) would be getting the initrd stuff (statically) compiled for ARM and probably modifying the init script.
If someone were to get Barry one of these it might help, but that also depends on if he's interested at all...
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#6 Post by darkcity »

Haven't the Slackware ARM already tackled this problem?

Has Barry ever mentioned been interested in ARM hardware?

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#7 Post by darkcity »

QEMU can emulate an ARM board

http://wiki.qemu.org/Main_Page

Would it be possible to test initrd on this?

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#8 Post by sc0ttman »

Sorry for weighing in on this, and being such a non-expert...
Bit even I (the total noob!) got very close to completing the build of a working ARM-supported toolchain, using ttylinux..

If I remember correctly, the target system is a beagleboard, or similar.

I even edited the config and build scripts before I started, so that it downloaded and built versions of glibc, busybox, etc,
that are being used in Wary (I matched it as best I could).

But I think I messed things up, or at least the build script could do nearly every part, except 1 thing.. it could not build busybox correctly..

I could not find a busybox binary for beagleboard/ARM, so had to leave it there..

But my impression was that anyone with a bit of knowledge (unlike myself) could get the toolchain built, but as Dougal says, updating all the puppy scripts for ARM devices, and compiling all the bins needed by those scripts would be a huge job in itself.

Plus, I got thinking, which ARM devices are we talking about? Puppy cannot be expected to simply "work on ARM devices" ...

Which devices are we targeting? Cos I'd happily buy one of those RasberryPi things..

And... Just a thought... What would happen if Woof was run from inside the ARM toolchain?

I know a working ARM puppy would NOT be the result, but would it build most packages?
(that maybe a start!)
[b][url=https://bit.ly/2KjtxoD]Pkg[/url], [url=https://bit.ly/2U6dzxV]mdsh[/url], [url=https://bit.ly/2G49OE8]Woofy[/url], [url=http://goo.gl/bzBU1]Akita[/url], [url=http://goo.gl/SO5ug]VLC-GTK[/url], [url=https://tiny.cc/c2hnfz]Search[/url][/b]

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#9 Post by darkcity »

true there are different ARM architectures, but I think the RasPi uses a standard modern variety. I would like a project at support that architecture, I can offer some help but I'm noob too.

BusyBox is a cut down version of the linux shell, do any of the linux distros supporting Arm use Busybox?

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#10 Post by sc0ttman »

darkcity wrote:true there are different ARM architectures, but I think the RasPi uses a standard modern variety. I would like a project at support that architecture, I can offer some help but I'm noob too.
Yes, there is the ARM CPU to think about... But also the other hardware components which, altogether, make up the target device.
do any of the linux distros supporting Arm use Busybox?
yes many.
[b][url=https://bit.ly/2KjtxoD]Pkg[/url], [url=https://bit.ly/2U6dzxV]mdsh[/url], [url=https://bit.ly/2G49OE8]Woofy[/url], [url=http://goo.gl/bzBU1]Akita[/url], [url=http://goo.gl/SO5ug]VLC-GTK[/url], [url=https://tiny.cc/c2hnfz]Search[/url][/b]

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#11 Post by amigo »

To configure busybox for an alternate arch, you need to create the conf file by manually running 'make menuconfig' in the bbox sources -you need to setup options for the ARCH and the PATH to the cross-compiler you are using. Then copy the '.config' created into the sources during the (automated) build process.

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#12 Post by sc0ttman »

amigo wrote:To configure busybox for an alternate arch, you need to create the conf file by manually running 'make menuconfig' in the bbox sources -you need to setup options for the ARCH and the PATH to the cross-compiler you are using. Then copy the '.config' created into the sources during the (automated) build process.
Thanks for the info, I might have another go at it one day..

I thought hhe build script is supposed to handle all the ARCH stuff.. As far as I remember, all ttylinux builds scripts (for all the different archs available) are run inside the same toolchain, which you gotta chroot into, and those builscripts are themselves specific to the final arch you want (ARM, PPC, etc)..
[b][url=https://bit.ly/2KjtxoD]Pkg[/url], [url=https://bit.ly/2U6dzxV]mdsh[/url], [url=https://bit.ly/2G49OE8]Woofy[/url], [url=http://goo.gl/bzBU1]Akita[/url], [url=http://goo.gl/SO5ug]VLC-GTK[/url], [url=https://tiny.cc/c2hnfz]Search[/url][/b]

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#13 Post by Dougal »

sc0ttman wrote:Sorry for weighing in on this, and being such a non-expert...
Bit even I (the total noob!) got very close to completing the build of a working ARM-supported toolchain, using ttylinux..
You don't really need to compile a toolchain:
- for the main filesystem, you have the distros like Ubuntu and Fedora etc. or can even use something like Open Embedded
- for the initrd you can just download a uClibc filesystem image from Rob Landley and compile in it what you want (you extract it, mount it and then chroot into it).
The problem is that there are a few puppy-specific binary programs, most likely written in C (like elspci), which need to be ported to ARM and then compiled, plus the various HW-detection modifications to scripts.

And keep in mind that until device-trees for ARM are merged to mainline, kernels for ARM tend to be compiled per-board -- so you'll be creating a ARM-Puppy-$board_name for each platform you want to support (like CyanogenMod do).

And don't forget that installing to ARM tends to consist of flashing ROM images...
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#14 Post by darkcity »

from what I can work out this things boots via the GPU! it will have an SD card with FAT32 file system. So hopefully doesn't need ROM flashing to boot different OS?

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it actually does boot via the gpu

#15 Post by obarthelemy »

for what must be an extremely good reason, their boot process is:
- boot gpu
- have gpu intialize display
- have gpu mount sdcard
- load os kernel image from sdcard
- jump to 0000x0

source: http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoard#Power_Adapters
"The boards do not include NAND or NOR storage - everything is on the SD card, which has a FAT32 partition with GPU firmware and a kernel image, and an EXT2 partition with the rootfs.

We're not currently using a bootloader - we actually boot via the GPU, which contains a proprietary RISC core (wacky architecture ;) . The GPU mounts the SD card, loads GPU firmware and brings up display/video/3d, loads a kernel image, resets the SD card host and starts the ARM.

You could replace the kernel image with a bootloader image, and that would work fine."

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#16 Post by puppyiso »

I saw the later version of the 25 dollar computer. It's a slightly bigger.

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#17 Post by qkall »

i came to the forum looking for this precise thread! just discovered the raspberry pi and immediately thought of puppy. when this comes out i would be very willing to help... granted it would be a lot of learning on my end i have a web server i'm not using... if interested please pm me.

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#18 Post by Atle »

So its light in the end of the tunnel?

I cam not really decrypt the tech talk here, but I am given the impression there is several ways to go.

This project, as so many others(the 25 dollar PC), can only say like other... Yeah... Linux=Ubuntu.

I think they will loose a lot on this.

As far as I can see the 5.2.8 has a neat little feature where you can uninstall all programs(one by one), so some of that problematic software can go away. So if one could identify what programs for 5.2.8 that is ARM friendly or unfriendly, such a remaster could be made.

Then its the hardware drivers. I guess there is not such a huge need for the large hardware driver for that 25dollar PC? Looks somehow limited to me.

If one assumes that hardware support is NOT the major issues here and getting it to boot is, then I guess its time to see if one of PuppyLinux serious contributors can get his hands on the device?

I think it could be time to make a post referring to this in their forum? Or?

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#19 Post by nooby »

Atle
If one assumes that hardware support is NOT the major issues here and getting it to boot is, then I guess its time to see if one of PuppyLinux serious contributors can get his hands on the device?

I think it could be time to make a post referring to this in their forum? Or?
Nooby here: Atle it can be my poor grasp of English or my lack of structured logic capacity.

But I wonder if you not do some kind of category error.

Are you aware of what an ARM CPU really means? I mean it is very different.

okay you have Debian guys them know ARM some of them at least.
And apparently even Ubuntu has now jumped on the wagon them too.

So the only way forward would be to either go the Debian root and make a Pussy that works for ARM by using a true Debian from scratch.

To expect that a Puppy Developer would even have time to get into ARM is so unlikely for me that I am surprised you even ask.

Now sure I can be wrong but suppose one of them took upon himself to do it. Would it not take more than a year of 24/7 or somethign and at that time the ARM CPU has already changed to a totally other CPU still named ARM but entirely other inside and the poor puppy Dev has to start all over.

But sure I can can totally wrong but we have been at it now for a year or so eagerly asking for a puppy on ARM but none have even said a peep or beep on it from the Developers side and that tells me it is impossible to do and very embarrassing to admit how hard it is.

The reason Ubuntu is on it is that them are paid by that rich guy.
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#20 Post by Atle »

So you sort of ask me to post a thread on this issue in their forum? About how long they intend to stick to a compatible technology? I agree to all you say and it might even be wrongful to even ask this question.

Maybe they need Ubuntu more? Or ASlackware ARM?

One might just delete this thread then.

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