A true concern about the very future of Puppylinux

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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Bligh
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#21 Post by Bligh »

Older populations are not about to try to type on a tiny screen or try to see it. Some of us still think phones are for talking.
Cheers

nooby
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#22 Post by nooby »


And thank you, Puppy people, for not listening.
How do you know that "Puppy people" don't listen?
What you could say is that the responses don't live up to your expectations.

I am disappointed too but try to be realistic about it.

I trust it is a kind of balance between what is possible and what is fun enough to be worthy the effort needed to get a workable result.

If putting Puppy on ARM is so much work that it is not fun in the end then none will do it unless them are payed enough to think the money we pay them get will buy them some fun time consuming experiences like travel or owning cars whatever.

I think one reason you have too high expectations is that like me you do know too little about coding. I try to find the relevant text from you.

Here you say it
Technically, I know nothing about x86 and ARM. so I scream to get some attention of people who may be able to come up with ARM Puppylinux.


Maybe you do know more than me about such things as x86 and ARN CPUs. But the little I know tells me it is incredibly much work to do what you expect. it is not something easy at all and I doubt that it is fun doing it if one are totally alone doing it.

But if say a team that liked each other cooperated to do it them after some years of hard work 24/7 them maybe would be able to have a ball coding for Puppy on ARM but I doubt there is such many coders around that long for to learn ARM.

And one problem is that ARM change all the time. Them come out with new such CPUs and them are slightly different so when them have success doing a Puppy then it is three years too old for the available hardware.

That is my wild guess of why it is not done.

And to conclude. To get people to listen is almost as impossible to learn to code for ARM. It needs talent and hard work and I have none of it.
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puppyiso
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#23 Post by puppyiso »

Bligh, there are bluetooth keyboard which people can type in for ipad and Android mc. For android, wired keyboard is possible.

And nooby, I admit I went overboard saying nobody listens. And I agree with you the difficulty of learning ARM instruction sts and its architecture.

I said that knowing some people here showed amazing ability coming up with 64bits, PPC etc.

Maybe the whole thing is just my wishful thinking.. I hope it's not gonna end up as a pipe dream.

If someone actually takes time to look at the possibility and try making ARM based Puppy, I would be happy that I wrote this post, whether the trying is successful or not.

It certainly worth trying.

For your information, there are tablets that can run both android and windows(from newd) and I can go right now and buy a tablet I can install Puppy. That runs windows XP. The only problem is it costs 4500 yuan(USD $703). I just don't want to spend that much.

I would like to spend $120 on ARM based tablet and install Puppy on it.

:lol:

nooby
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#24 Post by nooby »

Thanks sometimes I wonder if it is not more easy to go the other way.

It is not only us two that want puppy on ARM. At least two or three more users here that made that very known through starting threads about it.

What if all of us joined the forums that do those "rooting of surfpads and smart phones" and what if we in a friendly way tried to interest them into making something like "Puppy" with the tools them already know?

Does it really have to be totally compatible? Not every version of Puppy are compatible with each other.

Now I know too little what that "rooting" really refers to.

Others have pointed out that I know too little. But I wonder if not people who are into doing the following could be easier to persuade?

HP bought WebOS and such and made the Touch Pad. Now them sell it for a fraction of the original price due to them giving up on competing on the market.

So people talk about Androidifying the WebOS. Maybe such people know enough of coding to make something similar to what we long for?

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue ... mode=67#qa
With webOS you may have an easier time getting GNU/Linux software to run. Though I haven't tried it myself there are tutorials floating around out there on how to run Debian packages on your webOS device and access the command line. It won't be as straightforward as simply pointing your phone to the Debian repositories, but you may be able to get some of your favourite apps installed on your webOS device.
Him link to these two url
http://www.techhackz.com/2010/04/runnin ... webos.html
http://forums.precentral.net/webos-deve ... phone.html

That is not a Puppy but it is on the way? Now sadly the HP TouchPads most likely are already sold out.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

gcmartin

#25 Post by gcmartin »

I made an attempt to show the direction the vendors are going and some idea of the technology changes that they are steering us to. The buffalo/wilderbeast herds (people) are already off and stampeding.

Are you aware of how many older adults are on iPhones or Androids now?

But you are adamant about pushing Puppy onto a low-powered CPUs while much of the community is looking at adapting Puppy to new and different application arena....like Music production, or USB challenges, LAN entertainment, tele-distant communications, multi-CPU clustering, VM management, etc. Its really not merely about the CPU as it is the interesting and creative ways of delivering usable application to the current community from the base Puppy Linux. Remember, its only been 2 years that we got 64bit started on a CPU thats been available since 2005.

Maybe an Intel ATOM would be more a little closer to your price ranges. It and SEMPRO are least expensve until an ARM future arrives for you. Also, I really like some Puppy distros and others I don't like as much. But, there are other OS distributions that do give you a keyboard experience on a tablet if that's what you desire.

Further, the title of this thread. Its kind of misleading for it took me until here, today, to see the real direction you are heading. So I think my expressions were consistent with the title, but not with your concerns.

Finally, you're in China and angry at the Americans??? I don't mean to further upsetting you but, I do understand, like you, not having the current skillset to develop does leave us to "appeal" to our helpful brethrens for guidance and assistance. Believe me, there are some very busy and very talented people working at many levels, here, in the forum.

I mean no disrespect.

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puppyiso
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#26 Post by puppyiso »

Hello, gcmartin

I have read your opinion this morning. I accept most of things you said but there are a few things to streghten out.
Maybe an Intel ATOM would be more a little closer to your price ranges.
ATOM based notebooks are also disappearing. People need either more powerful notebooks (willing to pay the price) or more portable Tablets.

I posted my opinion after looking at the market in general. PCs are increadibly shrinking and iPad seems to be the sign of the future.

Android based devices are literally everywhere. AND CHEAP!!!! iPad's Aseries chip is not cheap, not available.

iPad cannot dominate the market because of Android equipped devices.
So are smartphones.(now nearly half and half market share)

Right now we cannot ignore the presence of ARM.

Further, the title of this thread. Its kind of misleading for it took me until here, today, to see the real direction you are heading. So I think my expressions were consistent with the title, but not with your concerns
The title is not misleading. If intel based x86 fade away too thin, where are we gonna find fresh, powerful computers to run puppy on it?

That's why I concerned the very future of our, at least my, puppy.

Looking for used PC and limit the power of computers to old PCs would look miserable. Staying with x86 is like holding onto sinking Titanic.

I haven't seen any awareness nor any effort to play it safe. There is a possibility that good ol' x86 might be gone. It's pure businees decision.
x85 has been with us quite a long time. It's time to go.

I think ARM or any other would replace the whole computing scene.
We should have Puppy ready for it.

It's like a rumor of war. Better to be prepared. If the Polish jew in the movie the pianist had ran away when he first heard the news, he and his family wouldn't have had such terrible experience.

Whatever happens, I would remember the reading and writing in this forum a great pleasure meeting many helping, agreeing and disagreeing people for the last several years. :wink:
Finally, you're in China and angry at the Americans???
To tell you the truth, I lived in New York for a long long time and went to 26 Federal Plaza for immigration matter.

I love the USA and miss those days. I live in China because it is certainly cheaper to live here. I met horrible Chinese and I don't like them so much.
Yet, there are good folks here so I don't hate them either. They are people I keep distant with.

I certainly not a Chinese. I wouldn't and I can't be angry with the US.
My ex wife is 100% American. The NRA thing is a joke and I am a member. :lol: I owned so many guns that FBI visited me several times.
I, deep inside, am American. I gave up to be a citizen there but the US is the place I would be living when I really retire.

So you can be sure that I have never been angry with the US.
(I don't always agree with politics, though but any one can have his own opinion)

I never meant to argue with anyone. I just wote this to suggest my opinion in this "suggestion" section.

And now, my friend nooby,

I appreciate that you've been supportive constantly.

I am thinking a possibility of having VMware app or something like that.
Puppy can be emulated on other OS using VMware, etc.

Right now, Photoshop is emulated via internet on Chromebooks.

As CPU get more power to run 2 OS at the same time, this might solve all the headache, I think.

What do you think about that?

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8-bit
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#27 Post by 8-bit »

It is my reasoning that the PC will not die as without it, making programs/apps or complete OSes that one of those do it all phones or tablets can use would be a bit hard.
Can you see trying to write a program on an android phone or an OS on a tablet PC.

Maybe. But if you want to market a program or OS later, using a web based application to do it is not very secure.

amigo
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#28 Post by amigo »

The bottleneck is in the user interface -the analog-to-digital translation. Until we get really, really, I mean *really* smart software which can 100% accurately translate what we *say* to the computer, we will still need things like keyboards and mice. Otherwise there is no completely dependable way to communicate detailed info to the OS. Just try typing a 10-page essay on a touch screen or with a stylus to see what I mean. Writing programming code is even harder because it is so cryptic -you'd wind up having to spell eveyrthing out letter-by-letter (and special keys even worse).

But, that doesn't mean I totally disagree with puppyiso. Already, there are more ARM CPU's sold than anything else. And just like android is opening the 'linux door' to many, many users, ARM CPU's are opening the door to non-x86 platforms.

While it is certainly possible to produce an ARM 'port' of Puppy, there really is little point. puppy is aimed at certain usage scenarios which rarely fit the sort of ARM hardware which exists. For example, name me even one ARM device which comes standard with a CD/DVD drive.

Or say you want to really install puppy to the devices persistent storage device. Well, you need to run puppy to install puppy -except you can install puppy from Windows and you could use an already-prepared linux, perhaps, to install it.

So, maybe it's not that part of puppy that you are really thinking of. Maybe you mean the 'run as root' part. Maybe you mean the GUI interface -the 'desktop'. Maybe you mean not having to save anything.

Think hard about exactly how you and puppy communicate. What would your experience be like if you were blind, or couldn't read. How about if you were paralized, but could speek? Close your eyes for the next minute and see how well you communicate with your OS and the internet.

Typical desktop systems have 2 or 3 input devices, and only 1 or 2 relevant output devices. A typical device with an embedded OS might have only one of each. Either way, your OS has to be able to run on the CPU and be able to use the available I/O devices.

For devices with an embedded OS, that usually means having to install your OS onto the device as an 'image' which has to be 'flashed' or 'burned' onto a raw storage medium. Of course, most netbooks and some pads, I guess, will willingly boot from a USB device, so it is much easier to install.

Now, assuming we've gotten our OS running and/or installed. What kind of I/O and UI devices are available? And what should your OS offer within the limits of that? We've been complacent with PC's about having *lots* of sockets, ports, wires and hardware versatility. Most portable devices are much more limited in what they offer -the little 'OS on a USB plug' (gumsticks?) where the size of the one ethernet connection to the device is bigger than whole rest of the device.

So finally, we get to what? A little mini-desktop, on a touch screen, a virutal keyboard and what else? And the screen -exactly what do we put on there? What actions to offer to the user -even with a system which shows menus you can only *legibly* offer a few options per page/submenu. Imagine you are there, as the user. What are you gonna want to do?

What about persistence? What would some screenshots of it look like?

nooby
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#29 Post by nooby »

puppyiso thanks for kind thoughts and the words that expressed these.

I sure want to be supportive but I am not a good thinker and a poor reader of texts and poor at structuring what I read.

Now to the questions.

1. Input.
Many of the even the cheaper versions now allow for USB connection that act as "Host" so them can have a USB box outside that allow you to connect not only a USB Mouse and USB Keyboard but also a USB CD/DVD or External HDD as I get it.

And the more expensive "pads" does have HDMI so you can have big screen as you want for us with old eyes needing more than 10" screens.

Now the quality of the most cheap "pads" are not that good but even a few of the most cheap have this ability to use USB keyboard and mouse.

But sadly the HDMI port is only on the more expensive ones.

2. How to transfer the puppy iso?


Well even Windows or Android Smart Phones seems to allow that one use MicroSD card to start up for to flash the "BIOS" chips? And you can restore it after experimenting.

A neighbor had bought a smartphone with Windows on it for his work.

So he wanted to separate work things from private things so he joined a forum for "rooting" and there found software that allowed him to start up Android from the SDmicrocard. So when he goes to work he start up the Windows and then when going home after work he start up android from the card and he has access to private things.

Then he heard of Apple had a mark II of their "phone" so he sold the Samsung? and now owns the "Phone Mark II" but he has also Jailed that one and can boot up Android if he wants to.

3. So in same way that them do these tricks someone good at programming would be able to let these SDMicro cards boot up Debian for ARM or Ubuntu for ARM or Puppy for ARM whatever and have access to mouse and keyboard and DVD and External HDD too if one really wanted to.

Maybe not on the most cheap versions but maybe them catch up in a few years?

But the latest I read in "News" was that Chinese workers are fed up with low paid work so them ask for more money naturally and the prices will go up unless them go over to Robot production and these have to be bought and paid for so we could be in a "limbo" at the moment not knowing where the "market" will go.
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borgbucolic
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What it would take

#30 Post by borgbucolic »

I got to thinking about the process of how to build a Puppy for the ARM powered devices.

First off, as I understand it, current Puppies are build using a build system and previously existing Linux distribution. I am guessing that there only a few of those supporting ARM. and these are currently "Linux like". I also understand that not all the source code is available either. In an ideal case, this would require some serious modification to the build system just for the undertaking.

The current desktop environment (software wise and setup wise) is unlikely to work with such reduced screen pixels and size. Another desktop configuration would have to be devised and fixed to support the specific hardware like cellular radio transceivers and such.

Software applications and the package manager would have to be reworked to match the dramatic change in the interface. For instance, Firefox couldn't work "as is", nor could you just download it and just layer it into the existing file system (which could also be way different).

You could end up making a 'one off' of Puppy specific to one device which could be replaced with a new model in a matter of months. Making an ARMed Puppy is not impossible, but I doubt it would resemble the Puppy you are familiar with.

The last part, and the most important part, is the developer would need two really big feet in both ARM based equipment (in which the information is not all that open) and Puppy Linux which in a breed by itself, so to speak.

Umm, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Let me just say, you would really need to be determined, if you wanted to do this.

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puppyiso
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#31 Post by puppyiso »

Well, well.. I had to log in to type in.

8-bit, PCs will continue to do its programming work but how many of computer users would do programming even for a hobby?

What's not possible today with tablets doesn't mean that they can not evolve into programming tool some day.

amigo, the whole point is that some day x86 might be cease to be produced and ARM(or other new) would dominate the market and thus we get a limited supply of x86(no up grade).

In this scenario, we have to have Puppy ready for it. We don't get anything new or different, just puppy surviving on other CPU(s).

That's what we get.



nooby, I have always laughed at the quality of Chinese products but some are good and cheap. I or we just take advantage of some good ones.

There are tablets with detachable keyboard.

Even Apple assembles iPhone in Foxcon, a Chinese factory. And makes 300% profit.

Steve Jobs eliminated keyboard and mouse by using touch screen and our fingers.

But we need all those back in production work. Right now it's possible.
Again, what we need is Puppy on ARM. That's the point. At least we can "take puppy for walk"


borgbucolic, yes, you are right. We need two-headed engineers.
I know it is difficult job. Otherwise, I wouldn't have posted this topic in the first place.

Where there is a will, there is a way. Isn't virtualization answer?

Imagine oneday we have puppies everywhere. People not only enjoy Android but also perfectly legal puppy and pets, sfses everywhere they go.

Besides, being chained to either desktop or stationed notebooks takes away our freedom of movement. Tablet is a nice idea.
Isn't that worth fighting for? Isn't that worth dying for?(quated from the Matrix :lol: )

By the way, I wish Steve get his health back and continue to surprise us.
Chairman Lee(samsung) is over 70 and still healthy.
Someone like Steve shouldn't walk away that soon.

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puppyiso
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#32 Post by puppyiso »

Come to think of it, it's touch touch everywhere.(I know it's got litgtle to do with this topic but..)

Last time I went Seoul, Korea, subway, restaurant, public offices, schools just everywhere people are using touch screens.


Phones, pads are all touch now. (even the future windows 8 :lol: ). Besides production work, it is certainly easier and more natural computing.

Touch is like evolution of DOS to GUI(windows 95 and McIntosh) inspired by XEROX

That's another reason Puppy should be changed. It's possible in windows now by adding touch sensitive glass sheet on the top of any monitor. Please google for it.

nooby
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#33 Post by nooby »

Come to think of it, it's touch touch everywhere.
That is now 2011 but already within a year or two them most likely go over to Body Gesture you don't have to touch at all you just wave the hand or hands and it knows what chars and such you want to do :)
And no screen either. It project the screen on any surface?
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amigo
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#34 Post by amigo »

The matter of which CPU is used is immaterial. Linux runs on more stuff than anything else, so we'll always have the linux option.

puppyiso, what I wanted to do was provoke your thinking. The type and size of the user interface is still a big bottleneck. Even with all this new stuff, there are still people programming for the new stuff. No programmer or even writer will ever like using a touchpad. Sure, writers would and do like to use a 'dictation program' -but the guy who proffreads it is not gonna use a 3-inch screen and touchpad to check and correct it.

My main two points were:
1. The OS you will have or want running on that small portable device has so little in common with puppy, that there is no good reason to base a new OS for the device on puppy.
2. Larger user interface components and really powerful and versatile 'boxen' are not going away soon. Nobody programs and compiles components for small devices on that device. They use a nice, fast -probably x86(32 or 64 bit) machine to cross-compile for that platform. Scientists, stock-market traders, graphics artists, etc. -can you see the day when they won't demand large screens, a keyboard and a mouse?

There are other CPU architectures that could replace x86 -look at the PPC cell processors used in a few super-computers and in those game consoles. It's just a matter of them being compatible with other hardware and being competitive on price, performance, power consumption and heat generation perspectives. If one ever does out-market the x86 crowd, you can be sure that it is already able to run linux. So what's the problem? Just what part of puppy do think is so hard to reproduce on some other platform -or what exactly is so useful about puppy that you aren't seeing on these other devices and platforms? What is missing?

nooby
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#35 Post by nooby »

amigo I trust you are right.

So what could it be that Puppyiso are looking for?

Sure he has to find words that is true for him but suppose us humans have at least something common. I only wild guess. Why did he chose his user name that way? He could have named himself Ubuntuiso or Debianiso pr Archiso or something. Slacko maybe :)

Do I make too much out of his name maybe. Could be just a random choice. I could ahve used the name Nobodyspecial I guess that is as true as Nooby

Now maybe he chose that name because he is like a "Fan" of Puppy Linux.

He likes something about how Puppy do things.

I agree with you that there are other linux like Debian that already knows how to do things in ARM CPU.

So why are we not Debianiso or DebianFan or DebianLuvr and so on?

So Puppyiso what is it about Puppy that is so different from Debian?


Why can you not just feel good about using Debian instead and join their forum and them tell you how to boot up on a "pad" whatever? :)

Guys I will now try to boot Pussy Linux which is pure Debian Linux so wish me good luck! I need that.
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#36 Post by technosaurus »

Touch is horrid for editing documents. Typing, selecting text, etc...
It also forces changes to the UI that limit the amount of data one can view on a single screen.
Most devs need the document editing for ... I don't know ... maybe development... and are bothered with a UI that limits their abilities.

Solve those 2 issues and maybe it will go somewhere.

BTW I think tablets are just a step towards a dockable smartphone that _can_ be your full pc and change its UI depending on how it is docked or what devices are attached (either physically or wirelessly) which BTW should never pass the "obvious test" of a patent since in linux it is as simple as adding a udev rule for that device class that switches configuration & refreshed the desktop environment or switches UIs
Check out my [url=https://github.com/technosaurus]github repositories[/url]. I may eventually get around to updating my [url=http://bashismal.blogspot.com]blogspot[/url].

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#37 Post by puppyiso »

Sure tablets don't have keyboard or mouse. But it is possible to attach them to. (detachable keyboard with touch was seen and joystick for iPad show the possibility of mouse)

I re-googled and now attaching some images from google showing keyboards.

However, the main point is ARM not keyboard.

By the way, nooby, my id is just an id. There is no meaning attach to it.
Please don't make fun of it.
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puppyiso
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#38 Post by puppyiso »

I am also attaching the photo of my use of bigger screen TV with input from my small netbook.

Screen size and keyboard input is not the problems. The problem is ARM which might be able to emulate x86 based Puppy on it.

Thank you, folks. I have heard enough.

Let's move onto something else. Uh.. something like the stock prices or the lunch menu, perhaps? (it's near lunch time now )
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puppyiso
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#39 Post by puppyiso »

I don't know how to spell but there is a thing called Wi-Di something.

From any notebook, you can see movies on TV. The function will be implemented to tablets sooner or later.

No need for HDMI or vga connectors.
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#40 Post by Lobster »

WiDi
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2357919,00.asp

Bluetooth keyboards should be compatible with most tabs
perhaps including the Kindle 4 (when available)

Any info on whether Kindle 4 will be Intel powered rather than ARM welcome
(making the Amazonian lab126 device more present-Puppy compatible)
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