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Paranoia for Beginners
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3556
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2011, 04:31    Post_subject:  

1. "I am not really frightened by fear"
Fear is a primitive instinct...
Originating in the subconscious...
Which knows MORE than our conscious mind...
[Our conscious mind only gets told those parts of what the subconscious knows IF they develop enough drive/importance]
These instinctive fears developed over millions of years.
Babies are born with them I believe.
They protect us even when our intellect attempts to over-rule them.
e.g. There was at least one person I heard of who was afraid to travel in the Titanic...
Because it was said to be unsinkable, and she KNEW that must be FALSE...
Because [she correctly believed that] NOTHING is perfect.

So she didn't travel on the Titanic...
Used another ship to take her to the USA...
And DIDN'T DIE.

CONCLUSION:
NEVER attempt to silence your fears.
Listen to them.
If you feel fear, then you're not ready to do that thing.
If all soldiers listened to their fears, and acted accordingly, there would be no wars.
And beware of no longer feeling afraid in situations that involve significant risk...
It may get you killed.
Like all those people on the Titanic.
And all those dead soldiers in all those wars.
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2011, 16:10    Post_subject:  

Sylvander wrote:
1. "I am not really frightened by fear"
Fear is a primitive instinct...
Originating in the subconscious...
Which knows MORE than our conscious mind...

[Our conscious mind only gets told those parts of what the subconscious knows IF they develop enough drive/importance]
These instinctive fears developed over millions of years.


I think fear in our context is primal which could be described as foundational or basic. Primitive would imply something of little evolution.

Yeah, in my own experience, I've had valid fear which my consciousness could not account for. Sometimes, if I have a certain kind of fear, I don't dismiss it easily. Meaning I may make decisions based on the 'fear' which may also be intuition. Who knows?

Like yourself, I think 'fear' often supersedes our conscious mind.

~

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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
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Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2011, 17:15    Post_subject:  

1. "Primitive would imply something of little evolution"
(a) Ah...
Exactly so!
I'm inclined to think that the fears that reside in and emanate from the subconscious.
Are very very ancient...
Perhaps no longer strictly apply in the modern world...
And yet they still exist.

Things like:
Fear of the predators that [many thousands of years ago would] hunt us in the night.
That leads to our present fear of the dark.
Then again, perhaps it wasn't so far back after all that people were hunted in the night.

(b) Anyway...
I'm inclined to think that our fears go Waaay back, and are slow to evolve.

(c) And that probably babies are born with such things already built into their mind...
Like the ability to suckle, even though no-one has taught them how to do that.
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jim3630


Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 792
Location: Northern Nevada

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2011, 17:56    Post_subject:  

interesting discussion of fear and concur it is the bases for our human survival instinct that is our fight or flight response. suspect fear to some extent comes into play when breaking into our awareness but we give the credit to "intuition."

People describe "hairs standing up on their neck" or "feeling in my stomach"when having "intuitions." but those physical sensations are often described by people who are feeling fearful.

acting on intuition or gut level "instincts" is what separates people. sometimes the living from the dead. couple days ago a guy went crazy in a ihop and shot 11 people killing 3 where I live.

doing what needs to be done despite the fear is one definition of courage. fear that slows reaction time is a bad thing. which is different from that pause that occurs as we measure or consider our choices of response. Over-reacting out of fear is just as undesirable.

are our fears justified or just paranoia. life experience usually provides the answer. I have a firewall linux os and everyday at least two pistols on me and a prayer in my heart.
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2011, 18:06    Post_subject:  

Sylvander wrote:

Things like:
Fear of the predators that [many thousands of years ago would] hunt us in the night.
That leads to our present fear of the dark.


I don't know about you, but when I was young, closet monsters and other goblins haunted my room at night and only at night.

Dad was maybe too macho to let me leave the light on. What do I care about macho? Just give me a light and a Teddy Bear to cuddle.

I don't have any statistics to give you. However, the police departments keep records. I bet if we could get statistics, we'd find certain types of crimes happen at differing rates by hours, days of week, seasons and weather. Of course the full moons, but we've always know about that :)

Hardly to mention geographical areas of high and low crime.

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2011, 21:48    Post_subject:  

Quote:
are our fears justified or just paranoia


Is Puppy and firewall sufficient for penguin paranoids?

You have a full tank of cooking oil, a teddy bear, light, a Linux firewall and . . . are you at peace?

A big part of martial arts and mind training is the understanding of fear. It takes many forms: stress, unease, paranoia, fear of clowns and so on.
Are there positive steps towards beneficial mind states? From my own experience I know paranoia and fear is something to acknowledge but not be overwhelmed by (unless you like that sort of thing).
How do we generate a sense of proportion? How do we foster a healthy attitude?

Puppy on

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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
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Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2011, 22:09    Post_subject:  

They probably told the woman who refused to travel on the Titanic that she was paranoid.
That her fear was totally irrational.
That her attitude was "unhealthy".

Which is best: instinct or reason?
The subconscious; or the intellect?

The subconscious knows more than the intellect.

Our dreams are our subconscious passing on to our conscious things it thinks our conscious mind should know.

Information as passed from the subconscious to the conscious in various ways.
It should not be ignored.

A mountaineering patient of Sigmund Freud once told him that he was having dreams about climbing a mountain, and when he got to the top he stepped off.
Freud told him it was time to give up climbing.
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jim3630


Joined: 13 Feb 2011
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Location: Northern Nevada

PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep 2011, 01:37    Post_subject:  

Quote:

Are there positive steps towards beneficial mind states? From my own experience I know paranoia and fear is something to acknowledge but not be overwhelmed by (unless you like that sort of thing).
How do we generate a sense of proportion? How do we foster a healthy attitude?

Puppy on


some positive steps might include a threat level assessment specific for your situation. for instance, computer security for daily online internet usage and say occasional online banking.

one of the first considerations might be am I qualified to make this assessment or do I need someone else with these skills. some people know from the start given their particulars it's someone with skills.

difficulty can occur with lack of knowledge to begin with. Is Truecrypt needed or just any combo of 8 letters with numbers for a password. do I need to include symbols also or is letters and numbers enough. or is more than 4 letters really needed for a password and so on.

fear an emotion is just as healthy as any other emotion in and of itself. so a healthy attitude one having a sense of proportion would not include just to have a substitute emotion. some may consider the absence of fear the preferred state. or having a general sense of well being the final goal.

knowing your weaknesses can lead to action plans and thus fortified promotes a sense of preparedness. objection assessments can also dispel fear when revel imagined threats.

knowledge education coupled with training when required promotes a fairly healthy attitude. but this is stuff that requires motivation, effort, usually money, and determination if seen to completion.

mentors people with the attitudes skills values characteristics I like or want to acquire and whose judgement can trust are invaluable. be sure to make as many as possible along the way.
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
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Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep 2011, 05:00    Post_subject:  

Hi Jim3630

I enjoyed your post and perspective.

I find it maddening to have close association with people who don't have healthy fear.

For make up examples. One person will charge purchases with no fear, even knowing he can't pay them back. Another person acts like every dime he spends is death.

Sometimes I wonder if fear is the key emotion and anger is possibly a manifestation of fear.

I seems a person with 'healthy and well grounded fear' wouldn't be very likely to manifest irrational anger.

It is said that we have three basic modes of operation when our survival seems threatened. These are flight, fight and freeze (also called still).

Also, I don't like experiencing much fear or being fearful. For this reason, I've done a lot to train myself or reason my way out of being a particularly fearful person.

Thanks,


Bruce

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jim3630


Joined: 13 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep 2011, 15:29    Post_subject:  

Bruce B wrote:
Hi Jim3630

I enjoyed your post and perspective.

I find it maddening to have close association with people who don't have healthy fear.

For make up examples. One person will charge purchases with no fear, even knowing he can't pay them back. Another person acts like every dime he spends is death.

Sometimes I wonder if fear is the key emotion and anger is possibly a manifestation of fear.

I seems a person with 'healthy and well grounded fear' wouldn't be very likely to manifest irrational anger.

It is said that we have three basic modes of operation when our survival seems threatened. These are flight, fight and freeze (also called still).

Also, I don't like experiencing much fear or being fearful. For this reason, I've done a lot to train myself or reason my way out of being a particularly fearful person.

Thanks,


Bruce

~


Hi Bruce, see your next door on this globe we live in so suspect our perspective might be close. we draw nearer to September 11th and homeland has quietly raised the threat level and with good reason related to specific persons coming into the country.

but that's on the down low. don't want the facts to scare people.(heavy sarcasm).

risk taking adrenaline junkies some martial artists and other types engage in activities take would stop the hearts of others. they want the flight, fight and freeze you mentioned. also referred to as F_ _ _ ed fight or flight. that effect forces one feeling near scared to death the opportunity to choose to function properly. functioning properly is a good thing. just doing those activities for the rush I doubt the benefit if any other than enjoyment.

maybe, adrenaline junkies with no formal training other than what is required for their specific activity tend to over-react less during normal daily activities and have that added benefit. don't know. some people are into survival mood with the smallest provocation.

anger can stem from fear. no doubt. don't know if all anger is caused by fear as there is different kinds of anger. the anger of a just man, indignation over social injustice and so on.

fear a key emotion. I believe that since fear tells us something is wrong. it's like pain in that regard. it is a messenger for us.

healthy and well grounded fear and irrational anger tend to think are quiet possible from the same person. even possible during the same time. something can happen to tip us over the balance while we are acting with our measured response.

Another person acts like every dime he spends is death. phobias have fear as a component but are much more complicated. folks with true phobias feel powerless hopeless and truly are requiring professional help.

fear is contagious like an instantaneous raging virus. we are infected without even knowing what the other person is afraid of. almost un-noticeably we "draw a blank" "not sure what to do" "don't know what to think" or just run walk away from that person after finding ourselves exposed to the situation. subtle F_ _ _ ed fight or flight.

need first to recognize the situation for what it is and put something between us and it if not literally distance itself. training can kick in consciously or unconsciously. combat breathing mental prayer centering techniques of one form or another... or start to learn that new software, hire the IT guy or security specialist.

keeping a car rifle is something I'm usually slack on. apart from growing up in part of the usa where rifles hung up in pickups were common occurrence it makes tactical sense. regardless of the potential situation you are arming against if you have made a conscious decision to have that as an option then rifles have advantages over handguns.

so if at the ihop parking lot couple days ago when that crazy guy started shooting - was on the other side of town thankfully- would much prefer to return fire with a rifle instead of one of the handguns i always carry. some have decided never to touch a gun and I respect their choice. have a plan and work the plan.

jim
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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Sep 2011, 00:05    Post_subject:  

Quote:
anger can stem from fear. no doubt. don't know if all anger is caused by fear as there is different kinds of anger. the anger of a just man, indignation over social injustice and so on


Guys, good points Smile
I believe I have a very immature and undeveloped anger response. It does not feel like fear. It feels strong but can be weakness.
A controlled outlet of anger, can be motivating and useful.
So for example, we may scream more terrifyingly than a little girl
whose teddy is gone, in martial arts . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiai

Sometimes I would wake in fear. Anxiety. No threat. Being able to question this mind state . . . literally turning it over, exploring its nature . . . I eventually found its cause.
Dehydration.
The body needed water and was fearful it would not get any. So just drink?
Well . . . whenever the fear sensation arose, I told it everything was OK, it would drink only when subsided. Gradually the fear would subside and then I would drink.
Now 'the fear' just reminds me it is thirsty and is no longer overwhelming . . .

If fear or anger arises and takes over, I would class this as demon possession or in more modern parlance, we might class it as 'issues'.

So it is OK to make use, learn and listen to negative emotions . . .
Are they guardians or a painful presence?

So it may be right to 'be paranoid'
but are you doing it right?

Puppy - it's a plot
Run for the Hills - not!

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jim3630


Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 792
Location: Northern Nevada

PostPosted: Sat 10 Sep 2011, 20:41    Post_subject:  

Lobster wrote:
Quote:
anger can stem from fear. no doubt. don't know if all anger is caused by fear as there is different kinds of anger. the anger of a just man, indignation over social injustice and so on


Guys, good points Smile
I believe I have a very immature and undeveloped anger response. It does not feel like fear. It feels strong but can be weakness.
A controlled outlet of anger, can be motivating and useful.
So for example, we may scream more terrifyingly than a little girl
whose teddy is gone, in martial arts . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiai

Sometimes I would wake in fear. Anxiety. No threat. Being able to question this mind state . . . literally turning it over, exploring its nature . . . I eventually found its cause.
Dehydration.
The body needed water and was fearful it would not get any. So just drink?
Well . . . whenever the fear sensation arose, I told it everything was OK, it would drink only when subsided. Gradually the fear would subside and then I would drink.
Now 'the fear' just reminds me it is thirsty and is no longer overwhelming . . .

If fear or anger arises and takes over, I would class this as demon possession or in more modern parlance, we might class it as 'issues'.

So it is OK to make use, learn and listen to negative emotions . . .
Are they guardians or a painful presence?

So it may be right to 'be paranoid'
but are you doing it right?

Puppy - it's a plot
Run for the Hills - not!


feeling invincible can take on the world no sense of personal death that is to say acting like can not be killed is pretty much the normal condition when we are young and without any formal training.

negative emotions are learned. which is to say that an emotion can be negative. learned from the social condition environment where one grows up. fear anger even anxiety can be viewed as social taboos negative and you pay the price if engaged in publicly.

I choose to view all human emotions as health. it is how I act on the emotion that makes the difference.

if on public transit and have an anxiety attack don't have to engage multiple people to tell them about my problem. unless just want to clear out the place and have some space. Wink

Quote:
Sometimes I would wake in fear. Anxiety. No threat. Being able to question this mind state . . . literally turning it over,


there is a time interval between an emotion and the response. if i feel angry can then consciously choose a response. problems can occur when that emotion is traveling at the speed of light or have another emotion or two for companions.

can apply that to others intentionally with kiai. watch as martial artists engage others of lower rank and then when they are equal rank.

at certain times the usual bow may be omitted with leaping into the air landing on all fours slapping the mat like a wild animal while sounding out a kiai that is more animal than anything human.

this not only signals their intent, can instill fear but certainly will create some reaction preceded by that pause in the brain of the other guy. will stir up internal energies and brings them to the ready to take advantage of the other guy whose brain my still be paused.

Quote:
Are they guardians or a painful presence?


depends on what you do with them.
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Lobster
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Sep 2011, 23:37    Post_subject:  

Quote:
there is a time interval between an emotion and the response

Interestingly when fighting you aim for 'muscle memory'
bypassing this process as much as possible.
http://www.martial-arts-insight.com/mushin.html

In metta meditation we swamp the consciousness
with positive emotive states, which allows us to
overcome negating and unwholesome mind states
represented in ways to make nooby hide behind the firewall Smile
http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/wrathful/

OM YA HA HUM (one might say)
http://tmxxine.com/yy/teaching.html

And a word to our 'healthy' paranoia
It is true
We are out to get you
Your defenses are part of the attack
Worried yet? Twisted Evil [Lobster practices evil cackle]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberwarfare

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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Sep 2011, 02:50    Post_subject:  

Lobster wrote:

And a word to our 'healthy' paranoia
It is true
We are out to get you
Your defenses are part of the attack
Worried yet? :twisted: [Lobster practices evil cackle]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberwarfare


A healthy paranoia? Sounds like it could be an oxymoron.

    From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 [gcide]:

    paranoia \par`a*noi"a\ (p[a^]r`[.a]*noi"[.a]), n. [NL., fr. Gr.
    para`noia.]
    1. (Med.) A chronic form of insanity characterized by very
    gradual impairment of the intellect, systematized
    delusion, and usually by delusions of persecution or
    mandatory delusions producing homicidal tendency. In its
    mild form paranoia may consist in the well-marked
    crotchetiness exhibited in persons commonly called
    "cranks." Paranoiacs usually show evidences of bodily and
    nervous degeneration, and many have hallucinations, esp.
    of sight and hearing.
    [Webster 1913 Suppl.]

    2. Unwarranted suspicion of the motives of others; -- used
    colloquially in a non-technical sense. [Colloq.]
    [PJC]

    From WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]:

    paranoia
    n : a psychological disorder characterized by delusions of
    persecution or grandeur

    From Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0 [moby-thes]:

    43 Moby Thesaurus words for "paranoia":
    alternating personality, brain disease, catatonia,
    catatonic schizophrenia, crack-up, dementia praecox,
    depersonalization, disconnection, dissociation,
    dissociation of personality, double personality, dual personality,
    emotional disorder, emotional dissociation, emotional instability,
    functional nervous disorder, hebephrenia,
    hebephrenic schizophrenia, insanity, maladjustment,
    manic-depressive psychosis, melancholia, mental disorder,
    mental dissociation, mental illness, multiple personality,
    nervous breakdown, nervous disorder, neurosis,
    paranoid personality, paranoid psychosis, paraphrenia,
    personality disorder, personality disorganization,
    problems in living, psychosis, reaction, schizoid personality,
    schizoidism, schizophrenia, schizothymia, social maladjustment,
    split personality


But then, attitude has a lot do to with it, I suppose.

~

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep 2011, 02:23    Post_subject:  

If Puppy had no firewall. I would use Puppy. For the early years we all did . . . Now using a bit of healthy paranoia, I usually turn it on - even though there is a firewall in my router . . .
Maybe we should use the word 'cautious' or 'security conscious' rather than paranoid but then dictionary precision is for lawyers and politicians . . . Smile

Meanwhile for those awaiting xombie attacks, it might be time to change all your passwords - you have not done it for over a week I bet - tsk tsk . . . Rolling Eyes
http://tek-bull.com/2011/08/your-fancy-password-is-easier-to-crack-than-you-thought.html

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