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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
ARM... Again... Any chance for Puppy on the 25 USD PC?
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qkall

Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2011, 12:28    Post_subject:  

i obviously have some reading to do... but i'm confused i kinda thought the purpose of t2 and/or woof was to get rid of these compatibility issues?
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2011, 13:56    Post_subject:  

qkall wrote:
i obviously have some reading to do... but i'm confused i kinda thought the purpose of t2 and/or woof was to get rid of these compatibility issues?

But was not that still within x86 or what it is named. Intel CPU that was the one that puppy always have worked on. While ARM is a totally other beast.

For to get ARM to work you need Debian them have code for some of the ARM. I don't know if them have for every version of ARM.

How many ARM cpus are there ? more than 10 or so and all of them different enough for one Dev to get headache?
And them change them each six months or so don't they?

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Dave_G


Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 459

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2011, 18:47    Post_subject:  

To quote nooby:

Quote:
How many ARM cpus are there ? more than 10 or so and all of them different enough for one Dev to get headache?
And them change them each six months or so don't they?


That is not the only problem, who is to say that all other resources such as
VGA, HDMI, RAM, USB, etc etc are all at the same locations on all the boards.

It would be impossible to code anything worthwhile if these along with the actual CPUs are not "standardized".
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2230
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep 2011, 03:59    Post_subject:  

Dave_G wrote:
To quote nooby:

Quote:
How many ARM cpus are there ? more than 10 or so and all of them different enough for one Dev to get headache?
And them change them each six months or so don't they?


That is not the only problem, who is to say that all other resources such as
VGA, HDMI, RAM, USB, etc etc are all at the same locations on all the boards.

It would be impossible to code anything worthwhile if these along with the actual CPUs are not "standardized".

In addition:
- rooting required?
- what to do if bricked?
- JTAG cable ready required?
- serial TTL-converter required?
- soldering skill necessary?
Not showstoppers but definitely not for the casual hobbyists (which most of puppy Devs are).

And add the fact that while ARM itself is open and well-documented, other hardware resources mentioned by Dave_G above, are usually not (DSP, video, audio, networking, etc). How then could Linux ARM ever work on it? The same reason nvidia/ati proprietary driver works - binary blobs.

Can't this be overcome? Don't we see a lot of "mods" by other people, building custom ROMs and such? Yes, of course - as I said, this isn't a showstopper for a dedicated, motivated hardcore hacker. But if one is hardcore hacker, one doesn't hang around in Puppy forums fixing shell scripts ... Rolling Eyes (no disrespect intended, I'm one of those shell-script fixers too Razz)
EDIT: typo and grammar

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep 2011, 05:20    Post_subject:  

James Bond is right. There are hackers out there that love to do their own ROM that one can download and exchage the custom ROM with.

That way one can get access to the innards and use apps that are made by community of such hackers.

Jailbreaking or what it is named. I admire their skills but not being that savvy I realize that to get a Puppy on a Surf pad tablet type of computer one need to be at least as savvy as them are?

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darkcity


Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2479
Location: near here

PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep 2011, 10:33    Post_subject:  

There is standardization within the ARM processor.

In this case ARMv6

Quote:
Will it run <insert name of program here>?
In general, you need to look to see whether the program you want can be compiled for the ARMv6 architecture. In most cases the answer will be yes. Specific programs are discussed on our forum, so you might want to look there for an answer.


People are talking like an ARM computer has never been built before.

Quote:
What Linux distros will be supported at launch?
Debian, Fedora and ArchLinux will be supported from the start. We hope to see support from other distros later. We will be selling SD cards with the distros preloaded. (Sept 4 2011 – originally, this FAQ suggested that Ubuntu would be supported. Because of issues with newer releases of Ubuntu and the ARM processor we are using, Ubuntu can’t commit to support Raspberry Pi at the moment.)

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep 2011, 10:45    Post_subject:  

Good News ?

Bodhi say them are doing Archos ARM

http://bodhilinux.com/
Quote:
Bodhi is coming to ARM! Our first alpha release is ready for ArchOS Gen8 tablets. Learn more here

http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/2011/07/bodhi-linux-for-arm-alpha-1.html
so what does that mean?

Bodhi is a form of Debian. I am in it now on Acer D250 which has an Intel Atom CPU N270

so one can learn about it using a usb with grub2 on it and boot it.

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Sat 10 Sep 2011, 06:51    Post_subject:  

A well known? thing are these "Hackers" or "Jailbreakers" that create their own ROM that them load into the hardware and that way get access to the innards of a computer product that usually are locked to an Operator's way to decide what should be available and when.

The good thing is that you get choice. You have two options instead of one or maybe three or more if many such "Hackers" are at it for that model you bought.

Usually on Mobile Phones but Tablets also have been hacked.

Read more about one of the successful such organization.
http://www.addictivetips.com/mobile/the-complete-review-of-cyanogenmod-7-walkthrough-guide
Quote:
For a list of devices officially supported by CyanogenMod, check out the official CyanogenMod page.

Such is the craze for CyanogenMod, that devices that aren’t officially supported, still manage to receive ports of the ROM courtesy of enthusiasts and developers.

CyanogenMod is said to offer the most barebone Android experience coupled with some very powerful tweaks.
This whole package by now is not wholly developed by CyanogenMod developers alone,
but is a collaborative effort between them and independent developers
on sites like XDA-Developers.


An example?
Quote:
Nook Color rooted

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=542991&sid=ea7019e5215e3e0d2db26878a54650b6#542991
Quote:
I bought a Nook Color tablet and it only took 30 minutes to Root it with CyanogenMod v7.

By the way... the Nook is awesome for just $250

7 inch multi-touch
ARM 8 Cortex cpu
512MB ram
OpenGL v1.0, 1.1 and v2.0 support
Wifi
Bluetooth
microUSB port
upto 32GB of microSD card supported.



After that it was easy to install Ubuntu 10.10 in a chroot.

But the Nook only has 512MB of ram and I'd really like to get Puppy Linux running on it.

Both Ubuntu & Debian can be installed on ARM based tablets.

Has anyone yet figured out how to put Puppy Linux on a tablet in a chroot?
Also Bodhi Linux which is a Debian derivative? can be used on ARM them claim.
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Dougal


Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 2505
Location: Hell more grotesque than any medieval woodcut

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2011, 15:13    Post_subject:  

Speaking of ARM devices... for those who missed the $99 HP TouchPad sale, this also seems like a decent device that's really cheap.
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qkall

Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2011, 16:18    Post_subject:  

yeah but i read that the second factory shipments were only for orders they couldn't fulfill last time...
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2011, 16:34    Post_subject:  

Quote:
Here are some specifications:

* 7-inch (800×480, 16:9) with Resistive Digital Touch Screen
* Screen: 6″ x 3.5″
* Weight: 13oz
* Processor Speed 700MHz
* Operating System Android version 2.1 (Froyo)
* 4 GB Built-in Flash Memory
* Built in 256MB DDR-ll RAM
* Built-in WiFi (802.11 b/g)
* Mini HDMI AV -Out- Jack
* Mini USB to Connect to Computer
* USB Host (Full sized USB Jack)
* Micro SD Card Slot (Support Max. 32GB)
* Built-in Rechargable Battery (up to 6 hours continuous use)
* Built-in Speaker and Microphone
* Supports: Browser, e-Book Reader, e-Mail, Photos, Maps, Video, You Tube, Facebook, Twitter, Music, Apps, Marketplace, Clock
* 3.5mm Stero Headphone Jack
* 3G Ready (For USB Connection)
* Has a 4 Way Accelerometer

Pros:

* The price is very cheap with great capabilities. I think it’s enough to give you convenient while browsing internet, reading e-book, or just playing music and watching movies.

Cons:

* No Cameras
* No “Multi-Touch” Supported in Android version 2.2 and higher
* This Android 2.1 Tablet does not play Flash in Browser. Plays in internal player. Android 2.2 supports flash 10.1 for Android
* Requires WiFi (Wireless Internet Service) to connect to the internet



I guess these are very important features

* Built-in WiFi (802.11 b/g)
* Mini HDMI AV -Out- Jack
* Mini USB to Connect to Computer
* USB Host (Full sized USB Jack)
* Micro SD Card Slot (Support Max. 32GB)

USB host is very important. That allow it to be its own Desktop with USB keyboard
and USB mouse and the HDMI allow it to have an external Screen for us with bad eyes.
Wifi allow it to get to internet. But sadly no SIM card then for Mobile phone connection when there is no wifi around?

How much does it cost then?
oops here them tells it.
Craig CMP 738a Touchscreen Android Tablet PC is offered for price $99.

hey that is cheap. A lot of people tell them had locks and one guy told them how to update the OS to get rid of teh locks.

Can it be rooted? What ARM cpu does it have?

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Dougal


Joined: 19 Oct 2005
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Location: Hell more grotesque than any medieval woodcut

PostPosted: Fri 16 Sep 2011, 08:18    Post_subject:  

qkall wrote:
yeah but i read that the second factory shipments were only for orders they couldn't fulfill last time...

You mean the TouchPad? I think it's because they originally hoped to sell a lot, so they had their suppliers make a lot of parts... now the suppliers are stuck with a lot of parts they have nothing to do with, so HP said they'd buy them from them. Note also that HP are not killing WebOS -- they're moving to become more of a SW company (the new CEO is a SW person) -- so this way they actually help spread WebOS... (and the money they lose probably just means paying less taxes)

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8-bit


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 3393
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Fri 16 Sep 2011, 14:05    Post_subject:  

The -25 USD PC is a reality.
It is digital, you wear it on your arm/wrist and it tells time.
Laughing Laughing Laughing
Remember how much digital watches cost when they were introduced.

If anything is stopping a 25 USD PC becoming a reality, it is the value suppliers place on the components that go into it and the idea of making a buck.
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Dave_G


Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 459

PostPosted: Fri 16 Sep 2011, 15:02    Post_subject:  

8-bit,

Although manufactures are always looking to make a quick buck, there
are other economic factors that must be taken into account.
In the case of the ARM CPU, it's slightly different then the case with the x86.
With the x86, Intel not only holds the IP (intellectual property) of the x86,
they also manufacture it.
However the with the ARM, things are slightly different, ARM Holdings plc hold
the IP and license it to manufacturers such as Atmel, Cirrus, Freescale (previously Motorolla),
NXP (previously Philips) and so on.

So these manufactures have to pay royalties to ARM Holdings and also amortize
the tremendous costs of chip design and wafer fabrication.

As we all know, any computer of any description needs RAM.
RAM prices also fluctuate widely depending on supply and demand.
Remember a few years back the cost of DIMMS suddenly shot up?
This was because producers cut back on production during the start
of the recession then when demand exceed supply they got caught with
their pants down and during the "catch up" period costs escalated.

RAM by the way is the most used "peripheral" IC as it's used from everything
from CD/DVD players, to PCs, to Xbox, Playstation, you name it, it uses it.

Make no mistake, prices will come down as more and more manufactures
produce ARM CPUs and thet reach their break even point at the silicon
production foundries.

It's a complicated game this semi-conductor one.

Dave.
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Atle

Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 291
Location: Oslo, Norway

PostPosted: Sun 18 Sep 2011, 16:28    Post_subject:  

There guys are arming them selfs

http://www.geexbox.org/2011/09/17/geexbox-2-0-has-landed/
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