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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
ARM Raspberry Pi commitment
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct 2011, 13:17    Post subject:  

Cool hope you get time to do some dev for puppy and ARM.
That LUA you have done what is that? I know too little to even guess
what it is. Linux User Application? What can it stand for?

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Svartalf

Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct 2011, 18:49    Post subject: Don't bet on it...  

technosaurus wrote:
Since there aren't really going to be any proprietary apps available, a build based on uclibc or musl libc makes sense IMHO alpine linux or openwrt are a good place for learning uclibc b/c that's all they do... but that brings us to needing replacements for flash (lightspark, gnash, swfdec...) and others(Skype, ...)


Wanna bet that there'll not be any proprietary apps? I port games to Linux after hours in addition to my puttering around with making Linux distributions. Very Happy

As for being uclibc...bad idea, really. It works decently enough for embedded solutions, but it's missing all sorts of things to get it to being that way. You'll find that it works nicely enough on a router, firewall, or similar (which is what Rob's aiming for with Aboriginal...), but past that, you're better off with glibc or eglibc. (Not to mention that I've already gotten an OE userland I'm in the process of proving out that's optimized for ARMv6 for the R-Pi... Wink )
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Svartalf

Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct 2011, 18:56    Post subject: murgaLua...  

nooby wrote:
Cool hope you get time to do some dev for puppy and ARM.
That LUA you have done what is that? I know too little to even guess
what it is. Linux User Application? What can it stand for?


murgaLua's a platform that combines the simplicity of the Lua programming language with a lightweight GUI toolkit, FLTK, and a DB engine, sqLite, to make a usable tool that's cross-platform as all get-out.
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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15122
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct 2011, 04:48    Post subject:  

Guys Smile

John Murga aka Judge Dredd, who finances this forum is a developer and Murga Lua was in Puppy for a while - and in the past John has created the very fast 'Mean Puppy'.
He is ordering 4 units Very Happy
I for himself and 3 for Puppy developers.

His generosity has prompted me to start Parm. I will announce a wiki page soon. Cool

Stay Tooned.

Puppy Pi
We compute

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct 2011, 06:39    Post subject:  

Guys have created a formal announcement
and written to Raspberry Pi of our intent

We have been talking of a Puppy Phone and lately
ARM tablets for long enough.

Puppy + ARM hardware = PARM
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PARM

We will be smaller
more efficient and have a better logo
(coming soon once our crayons are sharpened) Smile

Puppy
Seriously Linux

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct 2011, 07:49    Post subject:  

As I said if John need money I can send to cover for the first invest in these. I trust he took the ones with bigger RAM? 35 USD
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JohnMurga
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Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Far to the east

PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct 2011, 09:31    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:
As I said if John need money I can send to cover for the first invest in these. I trust he took the ones with bigger RAM? 35 USD

Yes.

The funds come out of what the ad in the top right corner makes.

Most of it pays for hosting, but that's paid off for a while, and this seems like a worthy cause that could make a worthwhile computing platform available to people who might otherwise not be able to benefit from it.

Many families save up for a long time so that they can get a TV, this is something that could transform that TV into something which is a lot more useful.

Kinda ironic for people like me, who plugged their first computer into a TV.

Cheers
John de Murga
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qkall

Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct 2011, 09:55    Post subject:  

Lobster wrote:


We will be smaller
more efficient and have a better logo
(coming soon once our crayons are sharpened) Smile

Puppy
Seriously Linux


i suggest a puppy with a raspberry pi logo as the nose!
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct 2011, 12:47    Post subject:  

Thanks John, Yes that was what many of us did at that time.
We had not monitor to use for that purpose at that time.

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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct 2011, 13:23    Post subject:  

what i see as the biggest step forward the raspberry Pi lets me take is a very cheap server room with no need for cooling or one big server and multiple virtual machines.

100 of these for $2500, the cost of one server. I have sadly done nothing with clustered systems but this is a good place to start. Eagerly i sit waiting the release of this raspberry thing and my approach to getting a puppy like system for it will be to do what i have done with pussy, make a puppy - debian, as i do not have the time to create a new puppy from scratch.

it would be great to see puppy for the raspberry, but in the past.. when i have made a tiny OS for ARM devices it hasnt worked well because the performance isnt what we are used to with intel compatible hardware. But for server stuff or running your apps like mplayer etc at the command console is quite OK, linux is so powerfull there will be many ways to run the apps we need to run, at the speed that will be usable but we may have to think differently in regards to the usual xorg roxfiler openbox desktop with a full blown browser as its quite easy to reduce ARM devices to a crawl.

for what it is the raspberry is great value and i think i will have atleast a couple of these running linux but at the console rather than using a desktop OS or as a file/ webserver or a game server, and with the correct software it would make a very awesome router that can run other server stuff too... imagine a router that is a file server web server ftp server, media server, torrent box.... it will be a new step up.
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Lobster
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct 2011, 17:35    Post subject:  

Quote:
because the performance isn't what we are used to with intel compatible hardware


That I feel is a legitimate concern. Whether it is an issue, will depend on the results we get . . .

A dpup (at the moment) seems the most likely Puppy bootstrap environment. Smile

I do not want a portable device with a built in toaster. Shocked
Intel run hot. Embarassed
Arm runs efficiently and longer. So this Pi is a static device but the idea is to move towards a viable mobile device when we have a cheap clear indication of what will get support. It may be the aakash device, however I somehow doubt that.

The idea of a 100 processor server might also inspire a further development of an Intel powered distributed Pup server. There was such a project . . .

The nature of the PARM ISO is dependent on the initial developer. I for one will make an effort to run the first compiles.

What happens next is anyones guess . . . Cool

Puppy Linux
Serving Penguins since 2003

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technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4424

PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct 2011, 18:49    Post subject:  

I _really_ don't like being frustrated. By the time one gets a working arm base, the whole infrastructure changes. Apple has it easy, they control their hardware, so they know what optimizations to work on and can actually eak out some performance. We don't have that luxury and you can't get any kind of performance with a "generic" arm build. A gentoo-style base could remedy much of this, but not what users are used to (self build vs. plug 'n pray) and not even gentoo has all of the necessary ARM use flags.

I could go through all of the problems, but noone wants to hear me bitch about how fragmentation in software _and_ hardware is bad and then get off on a forking tangent. So I will leave you with google to understand why you can't really reach the percentages of ARM systems with Puppy the way you can x86 (it has been done to death).

The only platform I _can_ envision for developing a workable system would be to compile the whole system (binaries, libraries, etc...) into llvm bytecode and initial boot into some kind of virtual machine where byte code is compiled to native instructions on the fly as programs are run (similar to how python's .pyo files are generated) This would completely eliminate the need to go multiarch (in other words any system supported by LLVM could run it) ... so if anyone is already working on this type of universal linux, let me know and I'm in.

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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
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Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 20 Oct 2011, 02:19    Post subject:  

what technosaurus said about the performance is true

android is highly optimized for ARM and kinda works at an acceptable speed, but no matter how much effort you put into a linux for ARM there is no way we can get it optimized like Apple have for their hardware or what android have unless we have a team of people making something from scratch

im not saying give up... im saying challenges will have to be faced.
also the raspberry might just surprize us all.
untill its released i can only comment on my own ARM experiences
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Wed 26 Oct 2011, 05:29    Post subject:  

ARRRRRGHHH!!!

this is painfull!!! waiting for a product to be released so we can begin work on it... its not Nov 6th yet... someone please make it Nov 6th....

tell you what if someone can make it Nov 6th right now..., ill buy then 2 raspberries and send them to you.... someone please just make it in the future when raspberry is released, plz plz plz plz plz plz.......
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darkcity


Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2481
Location: near here

PostPosted: Wed 26 Oct 2011, 05:52    Post subject:  

I can make it 6th Nov but not for a few days.
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