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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
ARM... Again... Any chance for Puppy on the 25 USD PC?
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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JohnMurga
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct 2011, 12:23    Post subject:  

This video is interesting :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OikpeRI-Agc

The machine isn't taxed much, but it seems OK.

And a picture from an early prototype :



Cheers
John de Murga

Last edited by JohnMurga on Sun 16 Oct 2011, 13:17; edited 2 times in total
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JohnMurga
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct 2011, 12:37    Post subject:  

Here we go again ...

sickgut wrote:
i havent made an OS for the raspberry, only for my android tablets and i can only comment on those. One of them is the superpad 2 or flytouch 3 with 1ghz cpu.and 512mb ram. you commented that you dont buy the absolute cheapest hardware, but this is a thread about running linux on a 25 USD computer, that is a buget ARM device it isnt a $300 or whatever galaxy slate.

You have to look at where the money was spent when making the device.

I was hoping my link would have helped with that.

Clock speeds are deceiving.

sickgut wrote:
from what i understand the raspberry has a decent gpu and this can run games, thats fine. Other games devices have an ARM cpu such as the nintendo ds. Its a different story when you use the same systems to run linux. The raspberry has a ARM cpu that i s said to be similar in performance to a PII300, well the playstation 2 also has a CPU that is similar in performance to that, and running linux on it is a terrible experience.

The CPU in the PS2 was a completely different kettle of fish.

That really was only designed to run games ...
And even game devs had trouble getting the most out of it.

The ARMv6 is a bit more general purpose.

sickgut wrote:
Altho good performance can be achieved from the ARM cpu such as what we see in gaming devices, it is only attained via the absolute optimization of everything. The game itself always talks to the cpu at the most low basic level. As soon as you put layers and layers between the running program and the CPU via the use of a multitasking OS like linux, you loose performance immediately and drastically. Android is optimized for the ARM, but even if you compile a normal linux like debian or whatever maybe puppy, yeah sure it works on the ARM but it isnt optimized for it in the same way that Android is.

My experience is the opposite, Android never performed as well as plain Linux for me on the FreeRunner.

sickgut wrote:
if you built puppy with an android kernel, then yeah maybe you could get around some of the performance issues. I think your best bet is customize your android to be more like puppy or wait till there is a new linux kernel that performs well on ARM devices.

I suspect you have never build an Android kernel ...

It contains a whole load of extra crap which we would not want.

Other than that it is no more optimized for ARM than a regular Kernel.
(Take a look)

Cheers
John de Murga
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JohnMurga
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct 2011, 12:52    Post subject:  

sickgut wrote:
Before there is a slew of remarks about how crap my skills must be to make an OS that is so slow, please know that for a long time i have been setting up debian linux to be similar in speed and size to puppy. I am using debian because i know more about that than i do Puppy. My Pussy linux which is a debian that tried to work in the same way and contain the same apps as Puppy has been a success and it is actually faster than Puppy if you load from a live cdrom and compare the 2 OSes. The same things I used to attain this kind of speed i have used in my debian ARM experiments., i am not a newbie at this.

I know that, which is why I find your rabid naysaying the more perplexing.

There are a whole host of factors that could be influencing the performance of your port on your tablets.

I am pretty sure that the Raspberry Pi will perform a lot better, specially given all the demos I have seen.

I am assuming you recompiled everything for ARMv6 (ARM11) ?

sickgut wrote:
If this OS actually was usable then i would have released it months ago and the only reason it isnt usable is because its so slow, and if released as a puppy it would give puppy a very bad name.

It would nice if you shared some of it with us, as we should be able to re-use most of it.

Cheers
John de Murga
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Lobster
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct 2011, 17:59    Post subject:  

Who likes Python?
http://youtu.be/teMlv3ripSM

Python is the language Pi are promoting but we have other possibilities. Murga Lua, Vala, Bacon or we could just stick with C . . .

We will need (for Puppy on Arm)
C and then Ash/Bash (script)
Perl?
C++
There is I believe a Puppy IDE for Vala from MU (Mark Ulrich)
Python because of the library size is not used much in Puppy?
The only program that I would like is Openshot - that uses Python but it would be slow I should imagine - we will see . . .

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sickgut


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PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct 2011, 19:05    Post subject:  

once you have debian arm installed you can apt-get anything you want still as the debian "main" repo is all available for ARM aswell. There isnt a need to recompile anything and you can slim everything down manually as well as have your main filesystem in a compressed squashfs if you like, doing this is reasonably quick and if there is a debian available with the raspberry as i read on their site it will be made available , a day uninstalling all the crud and slimming it and then apt-getting what you need then slimming it should be a simple affair, and distribution of the OS could happen with compressed .img file that is gzipped to save space and download size, and to install you ungzip then use dd to image it to the sd card, you could include all the bootloader etc that comes with the raspberry in the image file so the user can just image the sdcard and not worry about partitions etc

i can do this and will do it if yall think its a good idea. I have made debian for arm to try to be like puppy before with serious performance issues but...

...maybe the version of debian that comes with the raspberry is more optimized than the usual kind you or i could install, whatever the case it can be turned into something that resembles Puppy, well kind of like something similar in size and features and it would probably only take a day to do this. This will give you a good gauge to measure its performance and whatever measures can be taken to make it less intensive, but i fear the performance issues will restrict quite alot when it comes to the gui part of it. And if this is the case it can still be made to be reasonably useful running programs at the console etc but if performance is that bad that we have to do that then the Puppy that is made for it wont really resemble puppy much at all in the GUI sense.

whatever happens, ill release a small linux OS for the raspberry, using the debian that can be provided with it as a base, and make it as puppy like as i can... altho this isnt a puppy it will give you all a guide , like a preview of the kind of performance you can expect from the hardware, and if performance is an issue you can plan around that.
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darkcity


Joined: 23 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct 2011, 07:17    Post subject:  

It is interesting that Linux struggles to provide multitasking on ARM11, when slower chips have allowed multitasking with older OSs.

Sickgut warning of speed seems reasonable - see interview with Eben of RasPi:

Quote:
. . . I expect that a $200 x86 box will give you more compute than 8 Raspberry Pis. . .
Eben Slashdot Interview



I wonder if this is because we expect a lot more of an OS today and/or the way OSs work - Mac OS 9, Windows 3 and Risc OS use co-operative rather than preemptive multitasking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_multitasking#Cooperative_multitasking.2Ftime-sharing

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct 2011, 07:29    Post subject:  

Puppy Linux as a small OS is not alone in looking at ARM for to expand usage.
Bodhi Linux are also into ARM. Them have already for Archos 8" tablet.

Bodhi is a kind of Ubuntu remix. I boot it even frugally on my ntfs now thanks to kind help by d4p member of the forum.

Very few Ubuntu versions seems to allow for boot on old grub4dos.

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JohnMurga
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct 2011, 02:54    Post subject:  

Hi,

Again, this video looks promising :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I7jCSWdRLQ

It is a shame that there is no interaction to see how laggy it is.

Cheers
John de Murga
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sickgut


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct 2011, 03:58    Post subject:  

i apollogize if my posts seem overly negative, i am excited about puppy running on raspberry and other ARM devices such as the cheapo android tablets, as that is like the ultimate.... can you imagine drawing with your finger using gimp on a tablet PC?

when running linux on ARM its fast enough with be usable when you are running your programs in the console at the commandline, its when you start messing with an X server and a WM and a file manager and a browser that it really bogs down.

puppy for ARM is possible but the GUI part will have to be much much lighter than the current xorg roxfiler jwm or openbox and firefox/ seamonkey/ chrome/ midori browser setup. But without these things is it really a puppy? <---- that right there is my only concern.

but i am sure that right here in this thread are all the people we need to make a sweet light but functional linux that has the right mix of applications and speed and charm that can be made for the raspberry. Hopefully we can do for ARM what puppy did for the the intel x86, or at the very least modify the OS that can ship with it to do the same.
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Dweomergod

Joined: 20 Mar 2009
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Location: St Louis Missouri

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2012, 19:20    Post subject: port puppy to arm
Subject description: other distros
 

there are other distros ready to go for rasberrypi maybe a puppy could be built using one.I am on the preorder list hoping to use puppy on this little beauty. I have been using puppy for a long time but I am only a user and do not know how to write script or port, or I would gladly take on this project.The link here is for the available distros.


http://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2012, 20:42    Post subject: Re: port puppy to arm
Subject description: other distros
 

Dweomergod wrote:
I have been using puppy for a long time but I am only a user and do not know how to write script or port, or I would gladly take on this project.The link here is for the available distros.
http://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads

Tsk, tsk. Lack of ability and knowledge is easily remedied.
We will put you in charge of this project and give you 6 weeks to save the multiverse: Laughing
http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/distributions/parm-puppy-on-arm/#p49709

It is amazing how fast you can learn given the right sardines . . . Wink
Order a board. Put Debian on SD.
http://raspberrypy.tumblr.com/post/18874389094/most-excellent-penguins
Then . . . well how should I know . . . until I find out . . . Very Happy

We are Puppy. We are Doacracy.
Ignorance is futile.

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