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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Puppy on ARM
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sc0ttman


Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Posts: 2376
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct 2011, 16:24    Post subject:  

isn't the way to do this to mod Woof a bit, create a build a toolchain (chroot environment thing) and start compiling from source..? Barry does that with T2, I'm sure looking at things like ttylinux build scripts and others like will help make an arm supported woof...
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pacer106

Joined: 11 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct 2011, 16:53    Post subject:  

Hey lobster where did you get the raspberry part of the logo thats on the wikka page?

http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PARM

I am looking to do some artwork.
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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 1907
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct 2011, 17:16    Post subject:  

Time to share my thoughts about the subject.

I believe the best way for the ARM porting effort is same as the solution for the 64-bit Puppy problem.

Puppy relies on many binary packages (e.g Busybox, Bash) that were originally built on Puppy 2.x or 4.x and Barry kept using them in 4.3.1, which means they're still with us at 5.3.

I convinced Barry he should move all those to one repository, which is the "Packages-puppy-common-official" repository. My idea was to have just those annoying core packages there, but Barry put much more than that, mostly Wary packages that are compatible with most Puppies.

The fact these are binary packages means it's impossible to port Puppy to other architectures, since they aren't portable.

The solution for this problem is simple - automate the procedure needed to compile those. I wrote build scripts for most of those, which work with my package building tool, Builder. All I need to port Puppy to x86_64, theoretically, is a way to build 64-bit packages from a 32-bit Puppy.

What I'm doing now is something I've experimented already - a 32-bit Puppy with a 64-bit kernel (e.g a Puppy that can run both 32- and 64-bit stuff) that I can use to cross-compile all those packages for x86_64.

Similarly, I could build a cross-compiler that runs on x86 but produces ARM binaries. Once these are ready, I could use Woof to produce an ARM Puppy.

However, it's a 'lil bit more problematic - Woof has many executables and binary files. This is totally against any programming convention I'm aware of, but I won't criticize Barry's decisions.

The bottom line is that bootstrapping a new Puppy for another architecture requires four main things:
1) Replace all binaries in Woof with ones native to the new Puppy (well, except those used to build it - they need to match the machine Woof runs on)
2) Build that Puppy from a Puppy that can run its binaries, that's a Woof requirement.
3) All those crappy traditional packages.
4) A kernel.

Once we have all those, we can build some sane Puppy for ARM, x86_64 or any architecture, that has a compiler and everything needed to build the rest of it.

That's what I do with my current puplet, Guy Dog - it is built from Debian packages (I mean, just the base system) and all applications (and even more than that, even stuff like D-Bus and Bash) are built on top of it, automatically.

It shouldn't be that hard to port Puppy, but it's time to cut those ties between Puppy and x86.

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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct 2011, 18:27    Post subject:  

pacer106 wrote:
I am looking to do some artwork.


oh good Very Happy

http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Raspi-PGB001-300x267.png

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sc0ttman


Joined: 16 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct 2011, 19:11    Post subject:  

I think checking out ttylinux might help here... it is based on build scripts and chroot .... libc, gcc, busybox et al can all be very easily built for arm, and the arm stuff is built from within its own toolchain (which you can build to your liking as well), as mentioned would be needed...

I have no knowledge of this sorta stuff really, but even I eventually got a working ARM based toolchain ready to go, inc busybox, gnutils, etc, etc ... I just don't have anything to test it on! (or the inclination to be honest, it's pretty 'barebones'!)

here is the build system: http://www.minimalinux.org/ttylinux/Download/ttylinux-src-mp8.tar.bz2

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pacer106

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct 2011, 19:31    Post subject:  

Thanks for the logo lobster Smile

Next question where should I post finished work?
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Lobster
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct 2011, 19:34    Post subject:  

Quote:
Puppy for ARM, x86_64 or any architecture


So glad you are doing this. Cool
This ability is worth documenting and sharing.

As you know we have pets, SFS, portable linux apps and debs
as software packages and two package managers. (PPM and Slickpet)

In an ideal world we have an OS that boots with basic functionality
and installs and uninstalls software.

The basic Puppy OS functionality is impressive on a desktop
On a tablet or smart-phone it is dysfunctional - at the moment.
I did see some elements in Puppeee that would make sense on a touch screen.

Keeping in mind a common experience across different devices
and architectures is not easy.

Puppy may have to evolve into calf
http://www.iguleder.info/wordpress/?p=64

Puppy Linux
. . . anything can happen . . .

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct 2011, 19:47    Post subject:  

Quote:
Next question where should I post finished work?


Thanks pacer106 Smile

Maybe PARM artwork in the eyecandy section? (thread not created yet)
In an ideal world you would create a hosted location
such as:
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/1644/parm2.png
. . .
which can be linked to directly from the source to wiki, forum and other interested parties as the geek party begins (Raspberry Pi and hot dogs will be served) Wink

. . . and maybe igu would like an improved calf for his avatar?
. . . mind you 'outsider art' is big at the moment I believe . . .

Puppy
Linux As Arte

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Sat 29 Oct 2011, 11:21    Post subject:  

Barry is looking at cross compiler toolchains
http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=02575

. . . he could be turning raspberry Very Happy

Once we have our Puppy kennel [ . . . ahem . . .] kernel
We will have access to some amazing future browsers on cornflake packets (. . . OK far future . . .)

After Pi
we can select a touch screen tablet, which we can all afford

Raspberry Pi is very much an education project.
Puppy too is a continuous education, with many of us still learning how
to program or develop other skills.

I have always wanted a simple programming language such as
http://ifttt.com/
or better still real time programming which I believe some classified
projects may be using

Touch screens and pinching and expanding and moving
completely change the programing potential . . .
http://tmxxine.com/web/asq3/index.htm

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BarryK
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Joined: 09 May 2005
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Sat 29 Oct 2011, 20:13    Post subject:  

Iguleder wrote:
However, it's a 'lil bit more problematic - Woof has many executables and binary files. This is totally against any programming convention I'm aware of, but I won't criticize Barry's decisions.

The bottom line is that bootstrapping a new Puppy for another architecture requires four main things:
1) Replace all binaries in Woof with ones native to the new Puppy (well, except those used to build it - they need to match the machine Woof runs on)
2) Build that Puppy from a Puppy that can run its binaries, that's a Woof requirement.
3) All those crappy traditional packages.
4) A kernel.


I am aware of the problem, and have posted some thoughts about fixing Woof to be multi-arch:

http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=02576

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myman_05

Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun 30 Oct 2011, 00:03    Post subject:  

Finally... Laughing
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Lobster
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Oct 2011, 00:59    Post subject:  

Quote:
Woof to be multi-arch


Ay Chihuahua Cool

I hope those with rpi and 64bit will be the first
to try barking with the new Woof.
http://www.osnews.com/story/25271/ARM_To_Move_to_64bit_with_ARMv8

The traditional programs in Puppy have been
tried, tested and frequently updated.

Pemasu is a great example of someone
creating new Puppy blends that temper the fervour
of those on the cutting edge of innovation.

Great news from Barry Smile

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov 2011, 11:52    Post subject:  

Got an email a few hours ago . . . Very Happy
Quote:
Eben Upton to me
Hi Ed
We're doing our best to find you an alpha board right now. Hang in there Smile

Eben

Is he just taunting me with vapour raspberry wares? Confused

From the bottom of this page you will see they are after a BASIC
http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoard

We are Puppy, we bring (kosher) Bacon compiled BASIC on the beach
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=578859#578859
Time to go swimming in a C of variables . . . Embarassed

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov 2011, 03:34    Post subject:  

In the design of the Raspberry Pi board I found a Puppy


If I believed in such things it could only be a great omen Cool
For those of a more sensible build of mind . . .
Barry has a new ARM motherboard and will be developing Woof power with ARM shortly . . .
http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=02596

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nickec

Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov 2011, 17:40    Post subject: Is this helpful?  

http://russelldavis.org/2011/09/10/virtualbox-vm-for-raspberrypi-development/

"Virtualbox is only x86 but inside the vm is qemu and scratchbox2 that emulate arm and allow you to build software for arm devices"
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