A true concern about the very future of Puppylinux

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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ndujoe1
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musing about future of PC's

#61 Post by ndujoe1 »

I don't know if this argument is relevant?

But I recall when Geos was being developed it was essentially hardware independent as there were versions for Apple, IBM, Mac, and Commodore.

Can Puppy be created in the same mold?

Saturn
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#62 Post by Saturn »

ndujoe it very well could be done that, way I think, but I don't think anyone would be interested in doing all that work

at least to my knowledge, as far as I know about programming ,for each system, it would have to be specifically compiled( If coded in a high level, or object oriented programing language) for each processor architecture, as different cpu's of different constructions handle things quite differently in both software/firmware, known as registers, that contain the machine code(possibly written in assembly?) to process and handle system functions,like handling I\O ,other systems calls and such
.
I think C++ and all other languages are some how translated into machine code too, by the cpu or something else, because when you really get down to the very deep into internals of the system it's all binary...

But then again, your point may be valid if every architecture worked on the binary system
(it just might, really not a expert in system design or know all the architectural differences between all the different processors, types only know a "Tad" bit of how the x86 platform functions)

'Just sayin...
If binary code is Truly universal, on which all processor builds are based on...
Then it might work

But coding in pure machine language is confusing, complicated and has an extremely sharp,steep and dizzying learning curve

Dare I say writing and compiling machine code takes a special mindset?


ndujoe, does this answer your inquiry at all?

Let me know,
Thanks!

ndujoe1
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Puppy's future

#63 Post by ndujoe1 »

You answered it very well. It is a high bar to travel. If Barry had $1 Billion on hand no problem :)

To assembly a cadre of programmers for that level of work on open source it would be asking too much.

Joe

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Aitch
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#64 Post by Aitch »

I believe xbasic compiles to nmemonics/assembler, on the fly, and is about as close to machine code as programming gets, without actually writing directly in machine code
I think there are way too many differences in hardware processor code to support chips, and even drivers, whether in the kernel, or called on demand; from my understanding, even the hard drives are coded differently for each, x86/32/64/mac/ppc/IBM/sun/amiga/commodore, etc and even desktop/workstation/server have different pci hardware slots/ram addressing/scsi/sas/fibre etc....and it's changing all the time, with the trend now towards multi processor, up to 50 cpus per chip, I've seen, so multitasking and ram size and speeds will play a crucial role in the near future
I hope Barry's venture into Arm is more successful than the Edubook/OLPC efforts

also see http://www.pictutorials.com/Harvard_vs_ ... ecture.htm

http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.js ... 11516.html

Aitch :)

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sickgut
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#65 Post by sickgut »

when i didnt renew my 5 year lease on my warehouse for my computer full retail plus shipping business [EDIT: WTF << the forum changed the word w-h-o-l-e- -- -s-a-l-e to say full retail + shipping!...] in 2002, i kinda felt that PC computers would be $50 boxes you put next to your TV and they would have no user serviceable parts inside them and retailers would only make $10 on the sale of these boxes and for me being a full retail plus shipping selling to retailers, i would be making like $1 or 2 per unit. i thought this would happen in 5 years time ( 2007 or so...it didnt, but its starting to happen now). I decided it was time to get out of computer hardware.

ARM devices are still no where near PC in raw power. Altho flstudio is currently being developed for android and i expect other major software vendors will do the same. In the meantime, if you really wanna do some video editing and etc then PC will still be around for a while. The playstation and xbox have made the PC obselete for gaming, so now the Mac type of computers are on an even ground with PCs (not alot of games made for Mac)

When ARM devices are as powerful as a base PC, then this is when it would be pointless to own a PC, as you can just attach a nice monitor, mouse, keyboard and speakers and dvd burner to your tablet device.

This wont happen overnight but it will happen, just like a popular brand of shampoo.

Im sure puppy devs will made a puppy for these devices, but we need to wait till they are powerful enough and are actually available for the common folk first.

There is no reason to believe that puppy wont be ported to these powerful small devices in the future, but right now the problem is they arent powerful enough... give it a few years and they will be. Either there will be a way of including x86 cpus in small devices or the ARM ones will get way better, either way it doesnt matter.

gcmartin

#66 Post by gcmartin »

Where we are going??? ...very future of Puppylinux???

There rising tide is NOT hardware dependent. There is and has been an awful lot of attention paid in the forum to Hardware. "This CPU versus that CPU ..." ???

As computer amateurs/professionals (and that what this community is), the contributions is about an OS with common applications in the hands of the users.

Whether we like the following statement or not "IBM/Novell/Microsoft/Citrix/VMware/Debian-Redhat have paved the way for what we are doing here."

The industry is what WE should be looking at....NOT CPUs. They are guiding the users. Its NOT ARMs or INTELs pr AMDs. Its direction and the steering of users.

I hope those of you who can see this make an impact which guides to what the masses are being steer to. Its not hardware, my friends, its about how they are being steer to use something which affect profitability.

I have been giving some non-confidential leads in the past. Here's another. Interactive Touch screen App Stores in both business and personal space.

Look in your hand if you want to know where the masses are being steered.

If you want the future....open your eyes....its already happening closer to you than the sunglasses over your ears. And that is NOT CPUs. Its users the UIs and the interactive multimedia functionality that is going to be commonplace. That's your future! Mine too, if I live just a couple more years.

Hope this helps

jpeps
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#67 Post by jpeps »

Given the rapid progression of change even within Puppy Linux development, I think it's more about ongoing learning while moving on. Regarding tablets, they have their place, but don't replace laptops...way too restrictive. On a laptop, there's no need for a touchscreen.

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Aitch
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#68 Post by Aitch »

gcmartin....something like this? [not including all the apple/ipod/ipad stores]

http://www.hp.com/united-states/campaig ... art/#/Home

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/printers/lexmar ... -49303502/

http://digitalsignageuniverse.typepad.c ... tions.html

Yep, see 'em coming...just hope not to stand in front of a giant BSOD at the future bank :wink:

Aitch :)

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sickgut
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#69 Post by sickgut »

gcmartin wrote:Where we are going??? ...very future of Puppylinux???

There rising tide is NOT hardware dependent. There is and has been an awful lot of attention paid in the forum to Hardware. "This CPU versus that CPU ..." ???

As computer amateurs/professionals (and that what this community is), the contributions is about an OS with common applications in the hands of the users.

Whether we like the following statement or not "IBM/Novell/Microsoft/Citrix/VMware/Debian-Redhat have paved the way for what we are doing here."

The industry is what WE should be looking at....NOT CPUs. They are guiding the users. Its NOT ARMs or INTELs pr AMDs. Its direction and the steering of users.

I hope those of you who can see this make an impact which guides to what the masses are being steer to. Its not hardware, my friends, its about how they are being steer to use something which affect profitability.

I have been giving some non-confidential leads in the past. Here's another. Interactive Touch screen App Stores in both business and personal space.

Look in your hand if you want to know where the masses are being steered.

If you want the future....open your eyes....its already happening closer to you than the sunglasses over your ears. And that is NOT CPUs. Its users the UIs and the interactive multimedia functionality that is going to be commonplace. That's your future! Mine too, if I live just a couple more years.

Hope this helps
The problem with getting Puppy to run on a small device IS infact CPU (mostly), because you simply cant run the current puppy on such a device, like a tablet or a phone. It simply wont work at all, not one bit, not reduced in some way... i mean not at all. Puppy is coded for the intel i386 or x86 platform and some support the 64 bit CPUs as well.

We literally have to reinvent the wheel to make Puppy for ARM CPUs. Its completely different code, no binaries from normal puppy will work at all. There is a few teams gathered ready and waiting for this raspberry thing to be released, and this will most likely pave the way for the ARM CPU puppy being born, then later refined and shoehorned on to everything else, even then its not a matter of simply compiling a normal Puppy with ARM code, not i386 binary code.... how it all works will have to be changed in such a way to run fewer things at once, xorg and jwm and firefox and roxfiler all running on an ARM based system will grind to a halt, any ARM puppy will most likely not resemble the PC puppy in its interface and desktop etc because ARM isnt powerful enough to do that at a usable speed where the normal users wouldnt actually rip their hair out then shoot themselves when they click on gimp and FF and wait for them to load at the same time.

Yes, touchscreen small devices are where its all at, but unless they all start to run intel i386 compatible cpus overnight, at the present getting puppy to run on them is all about the hardware.

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Lobster
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#70 Post by Lobster »

Command line Puppy boots on ARM already :)
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PARM

Cheap ARM boards for us to start working on common hardware
will be available in 2012
They are Raspberry Pi and many of us including developers are committed to testing and supporting this initiative. 8)

Woof2 will support multi CPU architectures.
I expect the same arguments to occur once the MIPS based dragon chip becomes ubiquitous. :roll:

Guys, we are a mongrel Linux.
We change, we adapt, some of us are wer-puppys. Some are even more unconventional. For example some are purring along quite nicely . . .
http://puppylinux.info/topic/pussy-linu ... inues-here
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

nooby
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#71 Post by nooby »

gcmartin is the best to answer but as I grasp it
what you refer to is that the industry needs profit.

They want to sell apps and entertainment in the hands
of the customer. Smartphones and tablets that are powerful
enough to play music and videos but not do editing.

So PC will become as expensive as Workstations where some
30 years ago. Only companies and rich people will own them.
1986 I bought my first IBM compatible PC and that was a used
one with a Taiwan mother board and make shift collections of
brands so no official IBM PC but compatible. Cost me a fortune

Apart from the Second Market for used PC but them will end up
pretty soon. Okay a few Entusiasts will ahve their own Game machines
out of nostalgia but no computer shop will sell them for prices that
is affordable to the average Joe.

So it will be Tablets and Smartphones that use SD cards or The Cloud
to save what them fail to pay for to have enough of SD to store.

The big companies owning the clouds will force us to see ads or
to pay for to not see the ads :) So that is my naive grasp of what
you gcmartin say. Correct me if I am wrong.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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Lobster
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#72 Post by Lobster »

Convergence.
TV's with a built in PC is only about twenty years overdue . . .

The Cloud wants to own your data, rent you apps and advertise
the latest Googlies. :shock:

Pah!
We Puppys have other plans . . .
. . . in fact I feel the genius of our plan is we don't have one . . .
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions ... -a-920520/

Wait . . . we have fun . . . all else follows :)
Happy New 2012 guys
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

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sickgut
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#73 Post by sickgut »

ive been looking forward to the era when the personal computer/ tablet/ phone that does the whole thing you need is $60 or so.

puppy will be there, we will adapt

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Sky Aisling
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#74 Post by Sky Aisling »

Thanks, Lobster
Best chuckle of the morning.
Pah!
We Puppys have other plans . . .
. . . in fact I feel the genius of our plan is we don't have one . . .
May I quote you in the future?

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Lobster
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#75 Post by Lobster »

Sky Aisling wrote:May I quote you in the future?
I am glad you have access to my future quotes. :shock:
6. Supersmartphones, exoskeletons and wearable systems

Smartphones should have 100 times the processing by 2015. (Nvidia roadmap)
In the 2020s, we should have petaflop mobile systems. The supersmartphones are certain developments.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/12/techno ... -2012.html

I agree that phones are little use for the way many of us
use our big boxer dog hardware.
We need a keyboard and large touch screen (not yet mainstream).

This is the tiny, cheap (credit card size) ARM motherboard some of us are committing to buying in 2012, for our first ARM Puppy
Image

http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PARM
Fun times ahead . . .
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

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RSH
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#76 Post by RSH »

nooby wrote:The big companies owning the clouds will force us to see ads or to pay for to not see the ads..
Right (imho).

Get the damn cloud app out of puppy!

I wish, i could make my LazY Puppy 528 unable to install and/or run cloud apps. :D
[b][url=http://lazy-puppy.weebly.com]LazY Puppy[/url][/b]
[b][url=http://rshs-dna.weebly.com]RSH's DNA[/url][/b]
[url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=91422][b]SARA B.[/b][/url]

2XL
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#77 Post by 2XL »

I respectfully disagree with the OP.

Personally, the PC will never die for me. Not ever. I play games, I have over 3000 games with 99% of them being PC only (no console version). I'm not interested in playing these games on "the cloud" or a tablet, even if it were possible, which it isn't and won't be, not for existing titles. Even newer titles - I want them on my PC.

I use a PC - a desktop PC. I am a true nerd in that I use a PC to.. "use a PC". So in other words I don't have a specific need for a PC, but want to use one anyway. PC's are my life and what I do. I don't do anything else. I want to run Linux (and even Windows) on my PC, not on "the cloud", tablet or netbook.

For everyone else: Puppy is targeting older PC's, especially for people (like me) who cannot afford new systems. These "cloud" and tablet/mobile systems cost money which some people simply don't have. Puppy is perfect for these people. In fact, if what the OP says is true (which it isn't, sorry), then Puppy is even more relevant because desktop PC's will be dirt cheap since everything would be in the cloud or mobile. For those who cannot afford or do not want a cloud or mobile system, then Puppy and a cheap desktop would be perfect.

Connectivity: "The Cloud" will never take off properly until the entire planet, at least all developed countries, have access to true broadband. When I say all, I mean 100%. Many people are still stuck on dialup or other form of narrowband, even in expensive housing estates in the cities. I see it all the time. Until this changes, "the cloud" and even mobile computing will not have any chance of replacing the desktop. Puppy is perfect for those on dialup or other form of narrowband, better than modern Windows which has issues with many dialup modems.

Tasks: There are some tasks that "the cloud" and mobile computing are simply not good at. This will probably never change, desktops will always have a use.

Cheers.

3.1416
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#78 Post by 3.1416 »

The future of Puppy is not related to metal and plastic boxes. The future is related to virtual RAM. It is hardware that is going away.
Puppy will carry any message you want to send or receive. Formats will become history. If you receive media then you can use it because Puppy wrote it, and Puppy arrives with it. Puppy will carry its virtual Ram with it. When Puppy arrives at any media device it will manifest itself. The arrival of Puppy will be the arrival of a virtual PC that will run on any RAM that it can find. If Puppy finds the virtual RAM on another virtual PC then it will use it. Puppy will live on the WWW, and it will take its hardware resources from the web. That is the whole point of Puppy. It has already booted out the hard drive. Booting out the RAM is next. Puppy will arrive,boot instantly, and the user will not even notice it. For example, the RAM on a monitor could be used. The RAM on a cell phone could be used. The RAM on a cloud network could be used. The RAM on a TV set could be used. Puppy will become the first virtual PC that moves at the speed of light.

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#79 Post by technosaurus »

3.1416 wrote: Booting out the RAM is next. Puppy will arrive,boot instantly, and the user will not even notice it. For example, the RAM on a monitor could be used. The RAM on a cell phone could be used. The RAM on a cloud network could be used. The RAM on a TV set could be used. Puppy will become the first virtual PC that moves at the speed of light.
umm, no
Funny if it was an exaggeration, but RAM is _RAM_ and the "cloud" is too slow to replace it even for several iterations of bandwidth doubling which doesn't even seem to keep pace with Moore's law (mostly due to corporate carriers). Still would need a place to store a bootstrap environment - nonvolatile RAM has its own issues (if you bork your system - that's it)
Check out my [url=https://github.com/technosaurus]github repositories[/url]. I may eventually get around to updating my [url=http://bashismal.blogspot.com]blogspot[/url].

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tallboy
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#80 Post by tallboy »

So, everybody want a new 60 inch TV set for their living room, buying a desktop PC with something smaller than a 20 inch screen is not very likely. I cannot afford it, but it shure would be nice to be able to do so.

I wear glasses, and I am sadly getting into that part of life when I need reading-glasses as well.

What the f... can I do with a smartphone with it's tiny 2,5-3 inch screen? I cannot read anything without putting the damned thing up under my nose, it is not very likely going to be a tool for work or research for many of us. Photoshop or Gimp? You gotta be joking! And the cost for buying and using it? Hah! A pad of some sorts? OK for a short time, but just until the batteries start getting worn out.

I have Debian installed on a HD in a desktop machine, but i more and more rely on my dpup-485 live-CD/DVD for daily chores. Can be pushed into any disk player everywhere! Desktop machines will be the backbone in research facilities and workplaces for many years still, but they may change in shape and equipment as new gadgets emerge. I don't mind being called old-fashioned, and I sure look forward to find some of the big, powerful desktop machines that the gadget people have to get rid of anytime soon now. They will keep my puppys going forever!

Happy new year to you all.

Tallboy

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